rework/touch up mind control

[Uun]

10 hours ago, Mezmera said:

You all act like its a hard task to alternate the two hard aoe controls available to you unlike what you can get in any other control set. 

 

On my Mind dominator, Mass Confusion and Total Domination each recharge in about 75 seconds. If I'm alternating them, that means one is up every 38 seconds. That seems like every other spawn to me. There are lots of sets with AoE controls that are up more often. On my Fire controller, Flashfire is up every 36 seconds and Bonfire is up every 39 seconds (I skipped Cinders). On my Earth dominator, Stalagmites and Earthquake are each up in 25 seconds and Volcanic Gasses is up every 70 seconds. I won't even talk about Plant.

[Voltak]

17 hours ago, Mezmera said:

 

Terrify is a nice filler power, but in terms of control its soft at best.  It's not a reliable control.  I do have it to layer in my control after I drop Mass Confusion or Total Domination. 

 

The time it takes to clear the particular mob when you drop Mass Confusion is much much faster than any other power available in the set.  The next mob then you can leverage your other aoe hard control Total Domination then the next mob its right back with Mass Confusion. 

 

You all act like its a hard task to alternate the two hard aoe controls available to you unlike what you can get in any other control set.  I'd assume you'd want to take advantage of the uniqueness of Mind Control but hey what do I know.  

I am with Mez on this one 

I frankly don't understand how a Mind/   Dominator can solo the STF , the FREAKING STF !!   Yet.... people saying Mind/ needs help 

Listen, sounds like someone has IO problems or someone doesn't know how to play more effectively 

Mind and earth are the kings of control 

Get your IOs, get that global sick recharge very very high , then come back and talk 

 

[Mezmera]

7 hours ago, Uun said:

 

On my Mind dominator, Mass Confusion and Total Domination each recharge in about 75 seconds. If I'm alternating them, that means one is up every 38 seconds. That seems like every other spawn to me. There are lots of sets with AoE controls that are up more often. On my Fire controller, Flashfire is up every 36 seconds and Bonfire is up every 39 seconds (I skipped Cinders). On my Earth dominator, Stalagmites and Earthquake are each up in 25 seconds and Volcanic Gasses is up every 70 seconds. I won't even talk about Plant.

 

For one Bonfire is broken with that knockdown enhancement that was never on live and for some reason this dev team thinks that's a valid thing to leave as it is.  That would have lasted 5 minutes on the live version.  Earth is a strong control but other than broken Bonfire knockdown powers are resisted decently.  Stuns and knockdown are NOT the hard control you get in Mind Control.  It's kind of the same as calling Terrify the backbone of your control.  Yeah we don't need to get into Plant, Seeds is far too good as it has been since they introduced that later control set.  There are 4-5 pretty good controls with unique things they bring to the table, Plant and Mind are a few of them.  

[tidge]

 

The powers I took on my Mind/Poison, each was taken at the level it was first made available:

• current order:
  • t1: mesmerize
  • t2: levitate (5 slots) <- 1 of the 5 slots is in the category of "I couldn't think of anywhere else to put it"
  • t3: dominate (6 slots)
  • t4: confuse (6 slots)
  • t5: mass hypnosis (5 slots)
  • t6: telekinesis
  • t7: total domination (6 slots)
  • t8: terrify (6 slots)
  • t9: mass confusion (6 slots)

I included how many slots the build uses in each power (at level 50, but the priority was roughly the same while leveling (through normal content, if that matters to anyone).

I only added Hasten to the build at level 47 and it is single-slotted; I include this note just to offer some idea that I didn't see the need to prioritize Global Recharge,

 

I didn't find the experience of leveling up to be particularly onerous. I participate in lvl 50+ content with no real surprises (except possibly that this character makes earning the Valet badge from Market Crash reasonably straightforward).

 

I understand the emotional appeal of something like a Psionic Nexus pet... but quite frankly the current progression of powers (in Mind) "feels right" to me. Mass Confusion strikes me as "just right" for a T9 primary; I would be reluctant to see it diminished by moving it to a lower level tier (to make room for a pet).

 

Finally, here are a few more comments:

• The only part of the powers (that I took) that I really dislike is the application of damage at the end of Levitate. especially since %procs occur at the initial attack!
• The secondary is Poison, which offers debuffs as well as complimentary controls. YMMV with other secondaries.
• I specifically built this (concept) character to rely on extra damage from %procs. I don't feel (as an individual player) that Controllers need more damage, but I admit that having taken other Controllers to level 50 I wanted something with a little more "oomph". Again, YMMV.

 

[MTeague]

For Mind/Kin controller, for the build I usually use, I have

1. Mezmerise
2. Dominate
3. Confuse
4. Mass Hypnosis
5. Total Domination
6. Terrify
7. Mass Confusion

Yes, I skipped Levitate. That was to make room for Boxing/Kick/Crosspunch. 

Crosspunch works with Containment, and plus it's just awesome have a character who is an 80 year old man in hat, mask and suit punch the daylights out of his enemies.

The ONLY change I would want to see to Mass Confuse is to drop it's recharge by like 25% or so.  I wouldn't object to more, but I wouldn't ask for more either. 

 

Now, being a /Kin, yes, I have Siphon Speed to pump my recharge,  and Fulcrum Shift to pump my damages. 

Pop Terrify or Total Dom,  dive into a pile, quick 10+ stacks of Fulcrum Shift for me an anyone who followed me in, and start laying about.

 

Confusion is my absolute favorite power in the game.  I would be power-sad if they removed single target confusion, even if they made mass confusion available earlier.  I also love that both powers are Non-Aggroing.  Very dangerous bosses can be Confused from range to neutralize them as an opponent, and its' stupid-easy to KEEP them confused so even when they're the last man standing, you still have Free Hits on them. 

[DZKFire]

A little goes a long way for Mind. Small tweaks to CDs would help immensely. Reduce Mass Confusion CD, possibly reduce it's duration in turn.

 

On the other hand, I'd like to see some kind of synergy with Mass Hypnosis and Terrify. Maybe have a new effect where targets slept by Mass Hypnosis that get hit by Terrify get a Nightmare pop up, causing more psi damage and a guaranteed immobilize.

[EmperorSteele]

So after re-reading the OP, i realized a small flaw with their idea.

 

Subjugate seems to imply turning a minion into a MM pet basically. Sounds great on paper, except... what if the map is a defeat-all? Could we "Dismiss" the minion to auto-defeat them, or just relinquish control? Also, I think it should have a duration attached to it, to allow us to still slot Confusion set IOs. One of Mind's strengths in a post-IO world is the ability to slot two confusion sets to get all the amazing set bonuses from them, and I'd hate to lose that.

Also, keeping it as a confusion-class power would allow us to still stack confuse mag on tougher foes, if need be.

 

Mind is niche enough as it is, any changes should only add to the set without taking anything away. 

[Andreah]

One of the things I've always wanted in City of Heroes is a way to defeat enemies without seeming to kill or seriously injure them.

 

Maybe this would only work for minions, but if they were sufficiently controlled, or held confused long enough, or something, that they would call it quits being a bad guy for the day, put their hands up, and walk off the scene to disappear. Maybe saying something like "Mother was right, I should have gone into dentistry" or "I wonder if Paragon Pizza is hiring drivers." Or they could cross their wrists, bow their heads low a bit, and perp walk of shame away. 

[Zeraphia]

49 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

So after re-reading the OP, i realized a small flaw with their idea.

 

Subjugate seems to imply turning a minion into a MM pet basically. Sounds great on paper, except... what if the map is a defeat-all? Could we "Dismiss" the minion to auto-defeat them, or just relinquish control? Also, I think it should have a duration attached to it, to allow us to still slot Confusion set IOs. One of Mind's strengths in a post-IO world is the ability to slot two confusion sets to get all the amazing set bonuses from them, and I'd hate to lose that.

Also, keeping it as a confusion-class power would allow us to still stack confuse mag on tougher foes, if need be.

 

Mind is niche enough as it is, any changes should only add to the set without taking anything away. 

I can agree with you, to be frank that I don't want it to supersede what Mind Control already has...

 

That said, I still think this would be a very unique and completely interesting mechanic for mind control. However, I think some of these concepts could be used on another mind-adjacent set for control. I think the idea of confusing a pet to turn it into a MM-esque pet would be very cool, or make it a more fluid option as part of confuse if desired or something. Perhaps make a clicky toggle that appears (much like a temporary power) that gives the confused target MM-like controls, and when the duration wears off, it just relinquishes control. I think that would be real neat even if it's a little more complicated to play and may give Mind a bit of a unique Niche. Basically, if you wanted the power the same, without the MM controls, you are free to use it as you are now, but if you'd like the MM controls, you can use them to "pacify"/act defensively/attack specific targets/etc. which would be extremely unique it may be a little overpowered but I can't really say I'd be opposed given the current powercreep and the general consensus that damage/support>all in the state of the game. 

 

As to the specifics on how it would work on AV's/EB's I have no idea, but imagine the fun it would be to turn Ghost Widow or something into your actual pet... That would be marvelous. 

Edited April 6, 2021 by Zeraphia

[EmperorSteele]

Probably it would be the ability to command an already-confused critter? It would be an extra click, but i do agree it's a great idea, just needs some ironing out 😃

[MTeague]

6 hours ago, Andreah said:

One of the things I've always wanted in City of Heroes is a way to defeat enemies without seeming to kill or seriously injure them.

 

Maybe this would only work for minions, but if they were sufficiently controlled, or held confused long enough, or something, that they would call it quits being a bad guy for the day, put their hands up, and walk off the scene to disappear. 

 

"You don't want to sell me Deathsticks.

You want to go home and rethink your life."

 

More seriously though, there's very few sets where I could argue mobs are merely subdued vs broken/killed. Mind is a good example of one that works. 

Esp if your final blow is Mezmerize. They slump to the ground asleep, and wake up in the Zig.

Dominate, well, okay they're clutching at their head in pain. 

But the Hellion Humane Society probably prefers them getting a temporary migraine to being "Arrested" by your average Fire Armor/War Axe tanker.

 

[Spectre7878]

I for one would love to see telekinesis changed. In theory it sounds like a neat power but when being used it’s just wonky. 
 

I would like it to be like a mass lift or propel. I know I know. People don’t like migrating powers to other sets but it would be nice in my opinion

 

 

[Steampunkette]

My personal take on improving Mind Control:

 

1) Telekinesis creates a pop-up tray with a -repel toggle for 0 end. Turn it on to make Telekinesis drag enemies towards you instead of slowly pushing them away.

 

2) Taking Telekinesis or Total Domination causes Levitate to become an AoE. Secondary targets take a smaller amount of Smashing damage.

 

3) Confused NPCs treat the Mind Control Character as their "Leash" point. Rather than returning to where they spawned, they follow the controller/dominator until the Confuse breaks. Then they return to attacking the controller/dominator.

 

These changes would make Telekinesis a -vastly- more attractive power, allow Mind Control characters to do slightly more damage, and give Mind Control characters a reason to keep using Confuse on a single target, out of combat, to bring them along as an uncontrolled "Pet".

 

The third one would be far more difficult to implement than the first two. But none of these changes would significantly change the Mind Control Playstyle while increasing it's overall usefulness both for single player and group play. Further, no one who skipped TK would feel like they "Had" to change their spec to take it, because they'd have Total Domination in their build, anyhow, and get the Lift upgrade.

 

Modest changes, direct improvement, no forced respecs. Win/Win.

[kelika2]

Id rather see the single sleep get axed instead of confusion

Outside of Positron/low level CoT I never have a use for it.  Sure it sleeps bosses instantly but thats rarely ever needed.  And from a damage standpoint, levitate is far better than it

And in the era of everyone being an incarnate the old tactic of single sleep>mass sleep on LRSF/MLTF is no longer really worth it

[Spectre7878]

Here is my idea

 

T4 - mass hypnosis - lower the recharge on par with immobilize 

T5 - mass confusion - acts more like seed of confusion 

T8 - terrify- make it like static field only with fear

T9- mass levitate - just like the psionic assault set

 

 

 

[MTeague]

On 4/10/2021 at 12:50 PM, kelika2 said:

Id rather see the single sleep get axed instead of confusion

Single Target Sleep is how Mind parks EB/AV's.  

Don't yank that away without giving Mind something else in it's place. 

 

Although I do agree, don't be messin' with Confusion. Loooooves me some Confusion.

[xl8]

Terrify needs -tohit like fearsome stare.

[MTeague]

20 minutes ago, xl8 said:

Terrify needs -tohit like fearsome stare.

I wouldnt' object to that.  

 

But keep in Mind, Fearstome Stare does zero damage.

Terrify is a primary AE nuke for Mind.  Get containment, Terrify.  I would not want to lose that damage output. 

If I have to keep the damage OR get -ToHit, I'll keep the damage. 

[xl8]

20 minutes ago, MTeague said:

But keep in Mind, Fearstome Stare does zero damage.

Terrify is a primary AE nuke for Mind.  Get containment, Terrify.  I would not want to lose that damage output. 

If I have to keep the damage OR get -ToHit, I'll keep the damage. 

I’m with you but given the rch time I don’t think it’s a lot to ask. Plus, the apparent desire to tweak the set could mean it’s a significant enough improvement.

[EmperorSteele]

Yeah, no touchy the Mesmerize. In addition to "shutting down bosses", it's also good for maintaining a single-target attack chain!

 

One thing that can be done to help MC without even touching the set itself: moar Procs! Like a sleep set proc that has a chance to hold or stun (which only applies after the sleep is broken!) to let us keep containment on fools. Or a chance for AoE sleep in a ST sleep power (or put into the AoE for added sleepies). Or a proc that "pulses" a sleep effect on a target so they have a chance of taking a nap after you hit them.

 

But otherwise, this thread is full of good ideas 😃

 

[Spectre7878]

Just had another though for telekinesis. Just remove the repel and make it just a toggle hold. That could be an easy fix.