Ice/Kin or Ice/Time

[Kalahadra]

I'm wanting to make one of these two, but I'm having a hard time deciding. Time seems like it has better synergy with Ice due to the holds and slows, but Kin provides nice team buffs and Fulcrum Shift. 

 

What are your opinions on these two pairings?

[Flat Line]

Something to consider is Kinetics has a lot more powers you need to individually target and Time has more PBAoE.

 

Depending how you like to play, that might be a factor.

[Carnifax]

Either should be very strong. Ice/Time will give you much stronger defenses and nearly all the buffs work on you too, but also tend to lock you into the Soul or Power epic for a Power Boost (Soul is the better choice as it'll give you Soul Drain too, a way to boost your own damage). Stacking Holds is fine, but Freeze Ray is your best DPA power so chances are you'll be treating it as an Attack and slotting accordinly. Bitter Freeze Ray is too slow. Time Stop is a decent hold you can bolster with Time Crawl (the two also give ~150% -regen). The -Resist power is okay. 

 

Kin is kin. Once nice thing about pairing it with Ice is that Ice Blast is quick animating which Kinetics likes. Less defenses, way more damage for the team. You'll have more scope for choosing an Epic too. Ice Storm scatter will be more of a thing with Kin as you'll have no Time Dist bubble to slow / lock thing down (Blizzard is pretty good at knocking things down to keep them inside). As Daemon says Kin is very clicky. 

 

Both would be welcome on a team. Time is probably less frenetic and gives you more chances to just sit back and blast. Easier to keep squishies alive with Time too (the heal isn't centered around an enemy). Over level 45 as peoples builds mature you'll find your massive +Def bonus becomes much less relevant as people hit caps themselves (not useless, because Defense Debuff is a thing, but certainly less "god has arrived" than it was around the 30s). 

 

Kin will be trickier to build for defense caps (I've a no Winters / no Purples build done for an SG member with capped Ranged and ~40% melee) and much busier but obviously the team will be doing loads more damage. Takes til 38+ to fully mature as well (Fulc is a game changer). 

 

[Hjarki]

In terms of Time Manipulation, I'm increasingly not a fan. It's a grab bag of seemingly powerful effects that ultimately don't end up being all that useful. The long recharge buffs to recharge/defense are effectively personal-only buffs not just because it's difficult to get teams to stand still to receive the buffs but also because they probably don't need them in the first place - recharge and defense are the primary problems decent builds try to solve and once they're solved they don't need additional help from you. Moreover, they're issues you can solve yourself without Time Manipulation. So you're left with a set that has mediocre -regen, mediocre -resist and doesn't bring any significant damage to the table.

 

So I'd go with Kinetics.

 

The key realization here is that if you have Siphon Power/Fulcrum Shift, you don't need to slot your powers for damage. So you can chase the set bonuses you need or augment their secondary effects instead.

 

I pulled the below from my old builds file to demonstrate how this can be done - a S/L/E/R soft-capped Ice/Kinetics build:;

 

Spoiler

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.1.25
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Corruptor
Primary Power Set: Ice Blast
Secondary Power Set: Kinetics
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Ice Bolt

• (A) Superior Scourging Blast - RechargeTime/PBAoE +End
• (3) Superior Scourging Blast - Accuracy/Damage
• (3) Superior Scourging Blast - Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
• (5) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage
• (5) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance
• (7) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance

Level 1: Transfusion

• (A) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
• (7) Numina's Convalesence - Heal
• (9) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Endurance
• (9) Numina's Convalesence - Endurance/Recharge
• (11) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Recharge
• (11) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Endurance/Recharge

Level 2: Siphon Power

• (A) Accuracy IO

Level 4: Maneuvers

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• (13) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
• (50) Kismet - Accuracy +6%

Level 6: Aim

• (A) Rectified Reticle - To Hit Buff/Recharge
• (13) Rectified Reticle - Increased Perception

Level 8: Freeze Ray

• (A) Unbreakable Constraint - Chance for Smashing Damage
• (15) Unbreakable Constraint - Endurance/Hold
• (15) Unbreakable Constraint - Hold/Recharge
• (17) Unbreakable Constraint - Accuracy/Hold/Recharge
• (17) Unbreakable Constraint - Accuracy/Recharge
• (19) Lockdown - Chance for +2 Mag Hold

Level 10: Siphon Speed

• (A) Pacing of the Turtle - Range/Slow
• (46) Pacing of the Turtle - Accuracy/Endurance
• (46) Pacing of the Turtle - Damage/Slow
• (48) Pacing of the Turtle - Accuracy/Slow
• (48) Pacing of the Turtle - Endurance/Recharge/Slow
• (50) Pacing of the Turtle - Chance of -Recharge

Level 12: Ice Storm

• (A) Ragnarok - Accuracy/Recharge
• (19) Ragnarok - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (21) Ragnarok - Damage/Recharge
• (21) Ragnarok - Damage
• (23) Ragnarok - Chance for Knockdown
• (23) Ragnarok - Damage/Endurance

Level 14: Kick

• (A) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance
• (37) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage
• (37) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge
• (37) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance/Recharge

Level 16: Increase Density

• (A) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)

Level 18: Bitter Ice Blast

• (A) Cloud Senses - ToHit Debuff
• (25) Cloud Senses - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
• (25) Cloud Senses - Chance for Negative Energy Damage
• (27) Cloud Senses - Accuracy/ToHitDebuff
• (27) Cloud Senses - Accuracy/Recharge
• (29) Cloud Senses - ToHit Debuff/Endurance/Recharge

Level 20: Speed Boost

• (A) Preemptive Optimization - EndMod/Endurance/Recharge
• (29) Preemptive Optimization - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge
• (31) Preemptive Optimization - Accuracy/Recharge
• (31) Preemptive Optimization - EndMod/Endurance
• (31) Preemptive Optimization - EndMod/Recharge
• (33) Preemptive Optimization - EndMod/Accuracy/Endurance

Level 22: Tough

• (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
• (33) Unbreakable Guard - +Max HP
• (33) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance

Level 24: Weave

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• (34) Luck of the Gambler - Defense

Level 26: Bitter Freeze Ray

• (A) Basilisk's Gaze - Recharge/Hold
• (34) Basilisk's Gaze - Endurance/Recharge/Hold
• (34) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Recharge
• (36) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Hold

Level 28: Super Speed

• (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance
• (36) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points)

Level 30: Tactics

• (A) Rectified Reticle - To Hit Buff
• (36) Rectified Reticle - To Hit Buff/Recharge

Level 32: Blizzard

• (A) Superior Malice of the Corruptor - Damage/Recharge
• (39) Superior Malice of the Corruptor - Recharge/Chance for Negative Energy Damage
• (39) Superior Malice of the Corruptor - Accuracy/Damage
• (40) Superior Malice of the Corruptor - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
• (40) Superior Malice of the Corruptor - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (40) Superior Malice of the Corruptor - Damage/Endurance/Recharge

Level 35: Transference

• (A) Preemptive Optimization - EndMod/Endurance/Recharge
• (42) Preemptive Optimization - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge
• (42) Preemptive Optimization - EndMod/Endurance
• (42) Preemptive Optimization - Accuracy/Recharge
• (43) Preemptive Optimization - EndMod/Recharge
• (43) Preemptive Optimization - EndMod/Accuracy/Endurance

Level 38: Fulcrum Shift

• (A) Accuracy IO

Level 41: Scorpion Shield

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• (43) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage
• (45) Reactive Defenses - Defense
• (45) Reactive Defenses - Defense/Endurance

Level 44: Combat Jumping

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 47: Hasten

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO
• (48) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 49: Vengeance

• [*] (A)

Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
Level 1: Sprint

• (A) Celerity - +Stealth

Level 2: Rest

• (A) Empty

Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift

• (A) Run Speed IO

Level 2: Health

• (A) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance
• (39) Miracle - +Recovery
• (45) Preventive Medicine - Chance for +Absorb

Level 2: Hurdle

• (A) Jumping IO

Level 2: Stamina

• (A) Power Transfer - Chance to Heal Self
• (46) Power Transfer - EndMod

------------

 

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Hjarki

[Carnifax]

Here's the one I did for an SG mate, based off my DP/Kin. Capped Ranged and 40% melee ingame (slightly less in Mids, can't figure out why). Dark Consumption is a bit of a mule but Soul Drain is excellent at keeping you damage capped all the time (and doing a chunk of damage itself). 

 

Spoiler

 

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Bullitt Time: Level 50 Technology Corruptor
Primary Power Set: Ice Blast
Secondary Power Set: Kinetics
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Dark Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Ice Bolt -- Thn-Acc/Dmg(A), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Thn-Dmg/Rchg(3), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Thn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7)
Level 1: Transfusion -- NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(7), NmnCnv-Heal(9), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(9), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(11), NmnCnv-EndRdx/Rchg(11)
Level 2: Frost Breath -- Artl-Acc/Rech/Rng(A), SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), SprScrBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15)
Level 4: Siphon Power -- Acc-I(A)
Level 6: Aim -- Empty(A)
Level 8: Freeze Ray -- Thn-Acc/Dmg(A), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(17), Thn-Dmg/Rchg(17), Thn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 10: Siphon Speed -- Acc-I(A)
Level 12: Ice Storm -- HO:Nucle(A), SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg(36), SprScrBls-Dmg/Rchg(36), SprScrBls-Rchg/+End(36)
Level 14: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(23), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(25), UnbGrd-ResDam(25), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(23)
Level 18: Bitter Ice Blast -- SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMlcoft-Dmg/Rchg(27), SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), SprMlcoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprMlcoft-Rchg/Dmg%(31)
Level 20: Speed Boost -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A), BlsoftheZ-Travel(47)
Level 22: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(31), DefBuff-I(33)
Level 24: Tactics -- GssSynFr--ToHit(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(33), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(33), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(34), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(34), GssSynFr--Build%(34)
Level 26: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(19), DefBuff-I(21), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(21), Rct-ResDam%(27)
Level 28: Increase Density -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(37), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(39), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(39), UnbGrd-Max HP%(39)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 32: Blizzard -- Artl-Acc/Dam(A), Artl-Dam/End(40), Artl-Dam/Rech(40), Artl-Acc/Dam/Rech(42), Artl-Acc/Rech/Rng(42), Artl-End/Rech/Rng(42)
Level 35: Transference -- Acc-I(A)
Level 38: Fulcrum Shift -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(43), RechRdx-I(43)
Level 41: Dark Consumption -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Acc/Rchg(43), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(45), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), Obl-%Dam(46)
Level 44: Dark Embrace -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(46), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(46), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(48)
Level 47: Soul Drain -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(48), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(50)
Level 49: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Scourge 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(15)
------------

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Carnifax

[Kalahadra]

Thanks for the information and builds! I appreciate it!

[Erratic1]

4 hours ago, Hjarki said:

In terms of Time Manipulation, I'm increasingly not a fan. It's a grab bag of seemingly powerful effects that ultimately don't end up being all that useful. The long recharge buffs to recharge/defense are effectively personal-only buffs not just because it's difficult to get teams to stand still to receive the buffs but also because they probably don't need them in the first place - recharge and defense are the primary problems decent builds try to solve and once they're solved they don't need additional help from you.

 

The best time to apply the buffs I find is when people are fighting as they are relatively stationary and generally together. Of course you can also announce you're going to give buffs too.

 

 

Quote

So I'd go with Kinetics.

The issue with Kinetics is between Fulcrum Shifting, Transference, Siphon Power, Siphon Speed (because you do want more Recharge for yourself) and Transfusion, it can be challenging to find a lot of time to use your primary powers.

 

Said as the player of Water/Kinetics and Ice/Time corruptors.

[Carnifax]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

The best time to apply the buffs I find is when people are fighting

This is pretty much how I do it, both for Time and Nature buffs. Kin is indeed busy. One reason I think Ice is a good choice though, quick single target animations. My DP is great but by gods some of the animations....

 

"No, stop twirling the gun. I need to bang out a heal!"

[Darkir]

Well, what do you want to do with this character?

 

You can focus on procs and ST dmg with ice/time (farsight let's you really focus on procs and global recharge). I really like time, but I don't take a lot of powers (distortion field, time stop, and maybe one more) because either they aren't useful or they have such long cast times that I dislike them. When considering an ice/time corruptor, I also think you have to consider if you'd rather make a defender.

 

Or you can focus on aoe dmg and incidental team buffs (fulcrum shift is for you, it affecting the team is just a bonus)

 

 

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Darkir said:

You can focus on procs and ST dmg with ice/time (farsight let's you really focus on procs and global recharge). I really like time, but I don't take a lot of powers (distortion field, time stop, and maybe one more) because either they aren't useful or they have such long cast times that I dislike them. When considering an ice/time corruptor, I also think you have to consider if you'd rather make a defender.

I agree that Time Stop is junk that can be skipped and I would love to do without Time Crawl but its mandatory. But Distortion? A 45s, they enter this zone and they go slow, don't attack as often, and sometimes get held power whose recharge under perma-Hasten (You are playing Time, so why aren't you doing perma-Hasten?) is down towards 16 seconds...Why would you skip this?

 

As for being a defender (my first AT to 50 in live), your de/buffs would be stronger and your damage weaker but I think there is enough brought to the team either way that corruptor is the better choice for sake of the stronger damage.

[DreadShinobi]

Ice/kin can have a moderately high ceiling because you can shove so many damage procs into your attacks, and fulcrum shift with mob saturation can cap your damage even if you have 0% damage enhancement in a power.

 

Enhancement value cuts into your damage cap number fyi. Corruptors with 500% damage cap, 100% being base, and typically 100% from enhancement value leaves a  300% gap that can be buffed via fulcrum shift, aim, gaussians, assault, reds, etc. If you shove full proc slotting into your attacks, which ice can do with access to tohit debuff, slow, and holds sets, you can ignore your damage enhancement value and still damage cap yourself with kinetics. As far as gameplay synergy between ice and kin, kinetics requires mob saturation and other than the rain powers which can scourge, ice is mostly single target.

[Darkir]

On 3/10/2021 at 7:30 AM, Erratic1 said:

I agree that Time Stop is junk that can be skipped and I would love to do without Time Crawl but its mandatory. But Distortion? A 45s, they enter this zone and they go slow, don't attack as often, and sometimes get held power whose recharge under perma-Hasten (You are playing Time, so why aren't you doing perma-Hasten?) is down towards 16 seconds...Why would you skip this?

 

As for being a defender (my first AT to 50 in live), your de/buffs would be stronger and your damage weaker but I think there is enough brought to the team either way that corruptor is the better choice for sake of the stronger damage.

First, distortion field I feel is often overkill on my time toons. I already have times juncture, tough, dark embrace, and soul drain (of course I'm taking dark mastery). So that means I have softcapped defenses, around 60-75 s/l resists (with 35-60 dark resist), and heals. I just don't need more defenses unless I'm soloing dark astoria missions. Distortion field has a high end cost and a long animation time that does no damage. I can put procs there to make it ok to use, but there are still better choices for those slots, especially when considering the animation time. So, I just don't take it most of the time.

 

Now, in terms of a time corruptor or defender it's far more complicated than just saying one has better buffs/debuffs and one does more damage. Solo, a time/ice defender specifically might do more damage, have more survivability, and have more power choices than a corruptor when properly built. This is because of the stronger buffs and debuffs available to the defender and they can skip time crawl. Let's do some math:

 

 

We assume a power of ours does a base 100 damage (75 corruptor 65 defender), we can saturate soul drain with 6 enemies, we have 100%+ dmg from enhancements, we have applied slowed response, and we will look at DMG with aim and without. Oh, this is solo so we also have vigilance, but we also need to include scourge damage and quantifying that is difficult. So, we will also generously assume scourge adds 15% damage (but it's multiplicative! Not additive!!!). Its 15% because most the time you get scourge its super overkill. 

 

Corruptor with aim: 100% dmg enhancements+74.8% dmg soul drain+ 100.5% dmg aim with gaussian=3.853*75 base dmg= 288.975 dmg *1.225 slowed response=353.99 dmg *1.15 scourge= 407.09 dmg (but this is with aim and scourge so.....its a bit odd and not all the time...this is why things get difficult to determine real world usage)

 

Corruptor without aim: 100% dmg enhancements+74.8% dmg soul drain=2.748*75 base dmg= 206.1 dmg *1.225 slowed response=252.47 dmg *1.15 scourge= 290.34 dmg

 

Defender with aim: 100% dmg enhancements+30% vigilance dmg+88% dmg soul drain+ 130% dmg aim with gaussian= (we hit the damage cap for defenders here of 400%)4*65 base dmg= 260 dmg *1.3 slowed response=338 dmg

 

Defender without aim: 100% dmg enhancements+30% vigilance dmg+88% dmg soul drain= 3.18*65 base dmg= 206.7 dmg *1.3 slowed response= 268.71 dmg

 

 

So, if we don't include scourge the defender will actually do more dmg without aim than a corruptor, but thats kind of insane. Scourge will of course add some damage and so we must include it, but how much? Its very situational and so I put it at 15%, but sometimes its 0 and sometimes its 30%, and it saves you from hitting another power sometimes. Some people have said that scourge is 10% and others 30%, but meh, anyway its  hard to determine is my point. The defender gets that extra power from not taking time crawl though and they get the higher defense modifiers which frees some things up for procs and other things. 

 

An example defender build that is not min/maxed, but has a ton of procs in their ST attacks (melee defense is softcapped with time's juncture):

 

 

Spoiler

 

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Time Manipulation
Secondary Power Set: Ice Blast
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Dark Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Temporal Mending -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(11), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(11), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(13), Pnc-Heal(13)
Level 1: Ice Bolt -- SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(3), SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(3)
Level 2: Time's Juncture -- EndRdx-I(A), Slow-I(7)
Level 4: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(9), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(27), Rct-ResDam%(31)
Level 6: Temporal Selection -- Prv-Absorb%(A)
Level 8: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 10: Aim -- GssSynFr--Build%(A)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 14: Tough -- ImpSki-ResDam/EndRdx(A), ImpSki-ResDam/Rchg(15), ImpSki-EndRdx/Rchg(15), ImpSki-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(27), ImpSki-Status(36), GldArm-3defTpProc(37)
Level 16: Freeze Ray -- Apc-Dmg(A), Apc-Dam%(17), GldJvl-Dam%(17), NrnSht-Dam%(21), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(25), GldNet-Dam%(25)
Level 18: Farsight -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(19), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(19)
Level 20: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(21)
Level 22: Ice Storm -- SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg(A), SprDfnBst-Dmg/Rchg(23), SprDfnBst-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), SprDfnBst-Rchg/Heal%(36)
Level 24: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 26: Slowed Response -- AchHee-ResDeb%(A)
Level 28: Bitter Ice Blast -- SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(A), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(29), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), CldSns-%Dam(31), ImpSwf-Dam%(31), GldJvl-Dam%(34)
Level 30: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 32: Chrono Shift -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(33), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(33), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(33), Pnc-Heal(34), EndMod-I(49)
Level 35: Dark Consumption -- Obl-Acc/Rchg(A), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(37), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), Obl-%Dam(46)
Level 38: Blizzard -- Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(A), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(39), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Rgn-Knock%(40), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(40)
Level 41: Dark Embrace -- ImpSki-ResDam/EndRdx(A), ImpSki-ResDam/Rchg(42), ImpSki-EndRdx/Rchg(42), ImpSki-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(42), ImpSki-Status(43), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(43)
Level 44: Soul Drain -- Arm-Dmg/Rchg(A), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Arm-Acc/Rchg(45), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Arm-Dam%(46), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(46)
Level 47: Bitter Freeze Ray -- NrnSht-Dam%(A), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(47), UnbCns-Dam%(47), GldNet-Dam%(48), GldJvl-Dam%(48), Empty(48)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Vigilance 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Pnc-Heal/+End(7), Mrc-Rcvry+(9)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(5), PwrTrns-+Heal(5), PwrTrns-EndMod(37)
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon 
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Similar proc based ice/time corruptor, you need to move things around a bit more and you lose global recharge, but this shows pretty well  that it will do more dmg (I am a bit concerned about endurance though):

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Mutation Corruptor
Primary Power Set: Ice Blast
Secondary Power Set: Time Manipulation
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Dark Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Ice Bolt -- SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMlcoft-Dmg/Rchg(7), SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), SprMlcoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), SprMlcoft-Rchg/Dmg%(37)
Level 1: Time Crawl -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Temporal Mending -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(3), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(3), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(5), Pnc-Heal(7)
Level 4: Time's Juncture -- EndRdx-I(A), Slow-I(5)
Level 6: Aim -- GssSynFr--Build%(A)
Level 8: Freeze Ray -- Apc-Dmg(A), Apc-Dam%(9), GldJvl-Dam%(11), NrnSht-Dam%(11), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(19), GldNet-Dam%(19)
Level 10: Temporal Selection -- Prv-Absorb%(A)
Level 12: Ice Storm -- Artl-Acc/Dam(A), Artl-Dam/End(13), Artl-Dam/Rech(13), Artl-Acc/Dam/Rech(15), Artl-Acc/Rech/Rng(17), Artl-End/Rech/Rng(17)
Level 14: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(15), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(42), Rct-ResDam%(42)
Level 16: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(43)
Level 18: Bitter Ice Blast -- SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprScrBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), CldSns-%Dam(36), ImpSwf-Dam%(36), GldJvl-Dam%(36)
Level 20: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 22: Tough -- ImpSki-ResDam/EndRdx(A), ImpSki-ResDam/Rchg(23), ImpSki-EndRdx/Rchg(23), ImpSki-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(25), ImpSki-Status(25), GldArm-3defTpProc(27)
Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(27)
Level 26: Bitter Freeze Ray -- NrnSht-Dam%(A), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(31), UnbCns-Dam%(31), GldNet-Dam%(31), GldJvl-Dam%(34), Empty(34)
Level 28: Farsight -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(29), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(29)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(40), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(40)
Level 32: Blizzard -- Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(A), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(33), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Rgn-Knock%(34)
Level 35: Slowed Response -- AchHee-ResDeb%(A)
Level 38: Chrono Shift -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(39), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(39), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(39), Pnc-Heal(40), RechRdx-I(43)
Level 41: Dark Consumption -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Dark Embrace -- ImpSki-ResDam/EndRdx(A), ImpSki-ResDam/Rchg(45), ImpSki-EndRdx/Rchg(45), ImpSki-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(46), ImpSki-Status(46), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(47)
Level 47: Soul Drain -- SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(47), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(48), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(49)
Level 49: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(A), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(49)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Scourge 
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Pnc-Heal/+End(42), Mrc-Rcvry+(43)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(45)
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon 
------------

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(In both builds the missing slot is for a chance to build up proc in bitter freeze ray, I left it out so that all the damage stuff wouldn't be messed up because mids would assume it was always on)

 

Ok, so the damage of those two builds for single target is very close according to mids. The corruptor will almost certainly do more damage because of scourge, but its closer than a lot of people think without it. The lack of time crawl also lets the defender pick up assault, but the defender will also have higher damage debuffs from time's juncture and higher resists (maxed s/l). So the defender is more survivable overall. Now, for a real build I would almost certainly drop bitter freeze ray because even with all those procs its damage per animation is only 240-260 damage and it has a 2.5 cast time, which just isn't worth it for the whole chain unless you put in that build up proc in too, but even then I'd just rather use ice bolt or ice blast due to the faster cast time. In general, I'd prefer the defender for solo performance and the corruptor for teaming because the defender will easily hit the damage cap on a team (the defender can get to the damage on their own with aim) and the corruptor has a lot more room as far as the damage cap goes. 

 

All of this though (the builds, the math, everything) is predicated on the idea that you will take dark mastery for dark embrace and soul drain.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Darkir

[Erratic1]

I was only addressing primary/secondary (or secondary/primary depending on AT) considerations. If you have an epic which obviates the benefits of Distortion Field, that is fine so far as it goes but outside the scope of what I was looking at. 

 

Time is buffing recharge and debuffing resistance. Corruptor gets 100% Recharge, 22.5% Resistance Debuff, 10% To-Hit, and 9.38% Defense. Defender is getting 115% Recharge (values are the same on Chrono Shift for both Corruptor and Defender), 30% Resistance Debuff, and 12.5% To-Hit and Defense. So going from Corruptor to Defender you're looking at +15% Recharge, 7.5% Resistance Debuff, 2,5% To-Hit, and 3.8% Defense.

 

The relative merits of the difference depend considerably on where the impacted character is in terms of those benefits already. A character at 0% global recharge will cycle powers 2.15/2=1.075 times as fast from being buffed by the Defender than from the Corruptor--that's not a lot and it declines if the character has other sources of global resist. Roughly a third of the melee AT's defensive sets give Recharge boost (typically in the 20% range though it can go higher). Under IOs it will likely be even higher. Say a character had base 50% global recharge up their sleeve. The Defender is then boosting that character's recycling of powers over the Corruptor by 2.65/2.5=6%. A similar considerations holds for Defense. To-Hit is a bit more in the Defender's favor though it is hard to imagine that most teams or solo players are playing at the boundary of being able to hit their targets in the first place let alone the very narrow range where the Corruptor's boost to their To-Hit is not going to do the job and the Defender's will.

 

Resistance Debuff most favors the Defender but even there I am not sure how make or break the difference is. A power would deal 100 damage to a target with no resistance but hits a target with 30% resistance and so without either Corruptor or Defender present would deal 70 damage. The Corruptor would apply a 22.5% Resistance Debuff, which is resisted by the target's resistance, thus lowering their resistance from 30% to 30%-(1-30%)*22.5=14.25% taking the 100 damage output from dealing 70 damage to dealing 85.75 damage instead. The Defender would instead lower the 30% to 9% and so increase the 100 damage output from 70 to 91. That is a roughly 6% difference in results. Last I looked Defender damage lagged Corruptor damage by more than 6%.

 

 

[Darkir]

11 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Resistance Debuff most favors the Defender but even there I am not sure how make or break the difference is. A power would deal 100 damage to a target with no resistance but hits a target with 30% resistance and so without either Corruptor or Defender present would deal 70 damage. The Corruptor would apply a 22.5% Resistance Debuff, which is resisted by the target's resistance, thus lowering their resistance from 30% to 30%-(1-30%)*22.5=14.25% taking the 100 damage output from dealing 70 damage to dealing 85.75 damage instead. The Defender would instead lower the 30% to 9% and so increase the 100 damage output from 70 to 91. That is a roughly 6% difference in results. Last I looked Defender damage lagged Corruptor damage by more than 6%.

I didn't want to deal with resistance to the resistance debuff, but I will add it to the above numbers as you have them here. Give me a bit, I'm working on the corruptor build. We have to take into account the base damage with the damage buff numbers and the damage caps with scourge so it all gets messy, but I'm trying my best to include everything to give a more decent picture.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Darkir

[Darkir]

1 hour ago, Darkir said:

I didn't want to deal with resistance to the resistance debuff, but I will add it to the above numbers as you have them here. Give me a bit, I'm working on the corruptor build. We have to take into account the base damage with the damage buff numbers and the damage caps with scourge so it all gets messy, but I'm trying my best to include everything to give a more decent picture.

 

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

Resistance Debuff most favors the Defender but even there I am not sure how make or break the difference is. A power would deal 100 damage to a target with no resistance but hits a target with 30% resistance and so without either Corruptor or Defender present would deal 70 damage. The Corruptor would apply a 22.5% Resistance Debuff, which is resisted by the target's resistance, thus lowering their resistance from 30% to 30%-(1-30%)*22.5=14.25% taking the 100 damage output from dealing 70 damage to dealing 85.75 damage instead. The Defender would instead lower the 30% to 9% and so increase the 100 damage output from 70 to 91. That is a roughly 6% difference in results. Last I looked Defender damage lagged Corruptor damage by more than 6%.

 

 

 

Actually upon further thought I'll just leave it as is because every enemy has a different amount of resistance. I added two builds, one defender and one corruptor showing some of the differences between the two builds. You get closer in damage to the corruptor with procs and assault and bigger -res, but you also run real close to the damage cap. You do get higher res and def numbers from all your powers too, but with time its almost redundant defense wise. Anyway, you are right that the corruptor does more dmg, but I think the defender has a lot more going for it in terms of resistance, -res (this applies to the whole team), and recharge (mainly due to more slots to use because of higher def/res numbers). 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Darkir

[Darkir]

If I was to play a ice/time I think I'd do this (dropping bitter freeze ray):

 

 

Spoiler

 

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Mutation Corruptor
Primary Power Set: Ice Blast
Secondary Power Set: Time Manipulation
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Dark Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Ice Blast -- SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMlcoft-Dmg/Rchg(9), SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), SprMlcoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), SprMlcoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), SprMlcoft-Rchg/Dmg%(34)
Level 1: Time Crawl -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Temporal Mending -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(5), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(5), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(7), Pnc-Heal(7)
Level 4: Time's Juncture -- EndRdx-I(A), Slow-I(17)
Level 6: Aim -- GssSynFr--Build%(A)
Level 8: Freeze Ray -- Apc-Dmg(A), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(9), NrnSht-Dam%(11), GldNet-Dam%(11), UnbCns-Dam%(13), GldJvl-Dam%(13)
Level 10: Temporal Selection -- Prv-Absorb%(A)
Level 12: Ice Storm -- Artl-Acc/Dam(A), Artl-Dam/End(34), Artl-Dam/Rech(36), Artl-Acc/Dam/Rech(36), Artl-Acc/Rech/Rng(36), Artl-End/Rech/Rng(37)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(49)
Level 16: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 18: Bitter Ice Blast -- SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprScrBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), SprScrBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), CldSns-%Dam(27), GldJvl-Dam%(27), Apc-Dam%(31)
Level 20: Tough -- GldArm-End/Res(A), GldArm-RechRes(21), GldArm-RechEnd(21), GldArm-Res/Rech/End(23), GldArm-ResDam(25), GldArm-3defTpProc(25)
Level 22: Weave -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(23), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(40), RedFrt-Def(40), RedFrt-EndRdx(43), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(46)
Level 24: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(31), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(31), Rct-ResDam%(37)
Level 26: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 28: Farsight -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(29), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(29)
Level 30: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 32: Blizzard -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(33), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(33), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(34)
Level 35: Slowed Response -- AchHee-ResDeb%(A)
Level 38: Chrono Shift -- Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(A), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(39), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(39), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(39), Pnc-Heal(40), PrfShf-EndMod/Rchg(46)
Level 41: Dark Consumption -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Acc/Rchg(42), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(42), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), Obl-%Dam(43)
Level 44: Dark Embrace -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(45), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45), UnbGrd-Max HP%(45), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(46)
Level 47: Soul Drain -- Arm-Dmg/Rchg(A), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(47), Arm-Acc/Rchg(47), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Arm-Dam%(48), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(48)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Scourge 
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Pnc-Heal/+End(3), Mrc-Rcvry+(37)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(3)
Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon 
------------

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In terms of an Ice/kin, I think there is a build in my kintank post.

[Elia87]

How does fire or ice/kin do against GMs and high lvl content?

[Psylenz0511]

Necro post I know but I have a question. If  putting the damage proc from the 'Slow' set Impeded swiftness in frost breath or ice storm... can that proc fire with each tick or is it on cast only? 

[Carnifax]

Frost breath on cast.

 

Ice Storm is a patch power, so once every 10 seconds starting at 0. However because it is a patch the calculated proc rate would be poor (patches use "10 seconds" both for the check time and the recharge time for figuring out the proc % chance)