Pool Powers / hasten / epics / thoughts

[Incursion]

7 minutes ago, dragonhawk777 said:

Well if now it only requires you to pick up the first power in the Speed pool then what is stopping people from getting it now.  If Hasten is not a "mandatory" power than certainly no other pool power is and in fact the big buffs that people like from other pools can be found in a variety of pools.  Since you say the most you could see is it not take up a pool power than whats the difference if its inherited?  I am getting the idea that you and maybe some others are equating making it inherited with making it a passive like the fitness pool is.  I know I am not proposing that and I dont think the op is either, but I dont have psychic powers so I cant say for sure.  I am saying still require it to be slotted with recharge enhancements and its still a click power that you can set to auto if you want to tie up your auto power with it.

 

i think it would have to be slotted no matter what, it's a pretty big benefit power.  i'd love to see some stats on how many people who have SS also have CJ (maybe that will change with ninja run etc being able to stay on), and also would love to see stats on how many people with SS took hasten over flurry as the first pick, and then a stat on how many players have hasten across all toons and levels and also a stat for level 50 as all powers have been selected. I think the numbers would be staggering and would further prove the need to at least re-look at this and not sweep it under the rug. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Incursion

[dragonhawk777]

8 minutes ago, Greycat said:

You aren't understanding the idea of the cost. Especially for a power with this much potential impact.

 

No.

The only difference in cost is having to tie up a pool with one power.  You keep going on about costs but dont explain yourself.  You have yet to explain how moving Hasten out of the speed pool screws up cost balance any more than being able to slot up my toon at level 25 with complete IO sets and get all the recharge and other set bonuses.  The game has been pretty much cost free for years before it even shut down, so how does moving Hasten out of the speed pool screw up costs any more than a level 25 with full IO set bonuses?

[Incursion]

1 minute ago, dragonhawk777 said:

The only difference in cost is having to tie up a pool with one power.  You keep going on about costs but dont explain yourself.  You have yet to explain how moving Hasten out of the speed pool screws up cost balance any more than being able to slot up my toon at level 25 with complete IO sets and get all the recharge and other set bonuses.  The game has been pretty much cost free for years before it even shut down, so how does moving Hasten out of the speed pool screw up costs any more than a level 25 with full IO set bonuses?

exactly, or not be re-directed to another thread as an example of why the idea isn't sound.  

[dragonhawk777]

1 minute ago, Incursion said:

 

i think it would have to be slotted no matter what, it's a pretty big benefit power.  i'd love to see some stats on how many people who have SS also have CJ (maybe that will change with ninja run etc being able to stay on), and also would love to see stats on how many people with SS took hasten over flurry as the first pick, and then a stat on how many players have hasten across all toons and levels and also a state for level 50 as all powers have been selected. I think the numbers would be staggering and would further prove the need to at least re-look at this. 

For a number of maps I dont even think CJ is enough.  Back in the day I ran a toon with both SS and CJ for a little while to see how it could get around.  Maps like Skyway were still a nightmare and the fact that you dont run on top of water meant that maps like Talos mean you lose much of your speed boost as soon as your forced to swim.  Cryptic just didnt do a great job syncing up SS with how they made the game world.

[Doc_Scorpion]

4 minutes ago, dragonhawk777 said:

  I am saying still require it to be slotted with recharge enhancements and its still a click power that you can set to auto if you want to tie up your auto power with it.

As @Greycat said - you don't understand cost/benefit.  Even with just the default slot, as an inherent (or at least not costing a pool pick), Hasten will have a significant effect on total game balance.  Hasten has significant benefits, and that must be balanced by significant costs.  Requiring two slots out of the 50-60 odd every character gets is not a significant cost.
 

 

37 minutes ago, dragonhawk777 said:

I would say its a false equivalent in that Hasten is unique among the power pools, most if not all the other pools have a power that provides a defense buff (combat jumping, hover, stealth,...) but Hasten is the only ability that gives a recharge boost.

Hasten is unique, and uniquely powerful, because it boosts the potential effects of practically every other power in the game.  It's not a defense buff.  It's a defense buff, and a healing buff, and an attack buff, and well...  a practically everything with a recharge buff.

[Incursion]

8 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

As @Greycat said - you don't understand cost/benefit.  Even with just the default slot, as an inherent (or at least not costing a pool pick), Hasten will have a significant effect on total game balance.  Hasten has significant benefits, and that must be balanced by significant costs.  Requiring two slots out of the 50-60 odd every character gets is not a significant cost.
 

 

Hasten is unique, and uniquely powerful, because it boosts the potential effects of practically every other power in the game.  It's not a defense buff.  It's a defense buff, and a healing buff, and an attack buff, and well...  a practically everything with a recharge buff.

hasten is unique, that's why it shouldn't be tied to one pool. Lets face it, the only reason it's still there is because the rest of the pool is garbage.  +recharge on every power is not on par with any other pre-cursor power. The problem is, it's so engrained into peoples thinking on builds (guilty as charged) moving that to tier 3 or higher would piss off a lot of people.  There are a lot of parallels to stamina back in the day.  If we were allowed 5 pools, what's the worse that can happen.. someone skips hasten and picks up stealth, manuevers, weave, and either CJ/hover for Luck of the gambler mules at the cost of hasten, or they get get one more mule power built in. So okay the min maxers won't slot vengeance or gran invisibilty or another defense of power for +recharge... That's hardly game-breaking.   If you make it passive, min-maxers get 1 more power choice which they'll have maybe 1 or 2 slots to spare to feed, or they get 1 more mule power.....big whoop.  The benefit is more diverse pool selections. in my opinion. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Incursion

[AerialAssault]

To explain, Hasten is a strong power. Again, no denying this. It's a power that any character, any build, any set could take and say "Yeah, that was a good pick." Even Claws/Willpower, which I mentioned earlier, doesn't need Hasten in any way, could take it and not be a waste of a power.

 

Something with that level of power and utility needs a drawback, especially if any character can take it. That cost is a paltry one power pick, and using up one of their power pools (and then maybe two enhancement slots, really breaking the bank on this one). It's pretty easy to take that into account when building a character.

 

By contrast, Stamina was not as powerful or impactful as Hasten. It worked out more like an arbitrary tax. I think if Hasten were a new power being introduced today, it would probably have a 1 Speed pool power prerequisite.

 

When I say that it must be assumed that Hasten will be used, let me use an analogy; if you give someone the keys to a sports car, at some point, sooner or later, they will drive that car. So, if everyone has the Hasten power by default, we must assume that it is going to be used. Even an unslotted Hasten will provide a strong benefit to the character using it. And thus, we then need to take that into account in the future of the game, potentially requiring a lot of back-end fixing to ensure the game remains challenging. Again, it seems odd that you want the game to be more challenging (and there is nothing wrong with that, you'll find a lot of people here agree) but also want to have the Hasten power for free. So, to remain challenging the game would have to be worked up to account for Hasten. It sounds to me like two steps forward, two steps back.

[dragonhawk777]

2 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

As @Greycat said - you don't understand cost/benefit.  Even with just the default slot, as an inherent (or at least not costing a pool pick), Hasten will have a significant effect on total game balance.  Hasten has significant benefits, and that must be balanced by significant costs.  Requiring two slots out of the 50-60 odd every character gets is not a significant cost.
 

 

Hasten is unique, and uniquely powerful, because it boosts the potential effects of practically every other power in the game.  It's not a defense buff.  It's a defense buff, and a healing buff, and an attack buff, and well...  a practically everything with a recharge buff.

I understand it perfectly.  You and he just seem to want Hasten to be the only thing with a cost/benefit system.  Why can I outfit a mid level toon in all IOs for no real cost?  Why when I scale down to do a tf do I still keep all my set bonuses?  My point is, and which I have yet to see anyone answer it why is Hasten the only thing in the game that requires this imaginary cost/benefit when nothing else does?

 

I also disagree about it being a defense buff, but I do agree it is both a healing and damage buff.  Most defense powers are toggles, there are a few clicky mez protection powers, but the vast majority are toggles and dont really benefit from Hasten.

[Alchemystic]

14 minutes ago, dragonhawk777 said:

I understand it perfectly.  You and he just seem to want Hasten to be the only thing with a cost/benefit system.

 

That's simply not true.

 

Hasten is just the topic in question, I'm sure the same would applyif we were talking about Hover, Combat Jumping, or any other Pool Power.

[dragonhawk777]

2 minutes ago, AerialAssault said:

To explain, Hasten is a strong power. Again, no denying this. It's a power that any character, any build, any set could take and say "Yeah, that was a good pick." Even Claws/Willpower, which I mentioned earlier, doesn't need Hasten in any way, could take it and not be a waste of a power.

 

Something with that level of power and utility needs a drawback, especially if any character can take it. That cost is a paltry one power pick, and using up one of their power pools (and then maybe two enhancement slots, really breaking the bank on this one). It's pretty easy to take that into account when building a character.

 

By contrast, Stamina was not as powerful or impactful as Hasten. It worked out more like an arbitrary tax. I think if Hasten were a new power being introduced today, it would probably have a 1 Speed pool power prerequisite.

 

When I say that it must be assumed that Hasten will be used, let me use an analogy; if you give someone the keys to a sports car, at some point, sooner or later, they will drive that car. So, if everyone has the Hasten power by default, we must assume that it is going to be used. Even an unslotted Hasten will provide a strong benefit to the character using it. And thus, we then need to take that into account in the future of the game, potentially requiring a lot of back-end fixing to ensure the game remains challenging. Again, it seems odd that you want the game to be more challenging (and there is nothing wrong with that, you'll find a lot of people here agree) but also want to have the Hasten power for free. So, to remain challenging the game would have to be worked up to account for Hasten. It sounds to me like two steps forward, two steps back.

I would say Stamina was more impactful than Hasten as it affected every power in the game, minus the passive ones.  Hasten chiefly affects attacks and heals.  Most defensive powers are toggles, a few clickies but most toggles.  Every power in the game be they a clicky or a toggle requires stamina so while Stamina may not offer as big of a boost as Hasten does its boost affects more powers in the game.  As some have said there are entire ATs that dont get much of a benefit from Hasten (MMs) but I dont know a single powerset that didnt benefit from Stamina.  Yes now with IOs that benefit is less vital but its still there.

 

Again though it isnt free, it still requires you to slot it and either click it or tie up your one auto power to keep it running.  Keeping it tied to the speed pool and making it the only big recharge reducer in the game just makes its placement more of an irritant than a true cost.  It is also the only thing in the game with any form of cost real or otherwise.  As good as Hasten is I get far more benefits from all my IOs than I do from Hasten, and there is no cost for having them, other than influence.

[PeregrineFalcon]

6 hours ago, Incursion said:

hasten is still practically mandatory as it has been since launch. Some will disagree but maybe it’s time it’s made inherent, or part of every travel pool and can be chosen once, or simply make recharge bonus is just built in. It forces the speed pool on every single character, it’s annoying and I feel like it prevents my from diving into the new ones.

While I agree that Hasten is so powerful that it can seem mandatory, and perhaps too powerful for a pool power, I disagree with making it an inherent power. I have a lot of characters that have Hasten and a lot that don't. My Willpower Tanker and my Force Field Defender literally cannot benefit from Hasten.

 

However, the fact that it is so powerful for some builds is exactly why I think that choosing it should come with a cost. Right now the cost is that it takes up a power slot in your build and uses up one of your pool power slots. Personally I wouldn't be adverse to seeing it nerfed a bit or having a bit of a downside introduced. Perhaps a higher endurance cost?

 

 

6 hours ago, Incursion said:

Epics for scrappers, tanks and I think stalkers require an extra pick before accessing the aoe attack. It’s another annoying thing in this game, brutes get it in two, which I think is the way to go throughout melee sets.

I think that Scrappers, Tankers and Stalkers are all in a good place now. I don't think that any of them require additional buffs, which is what your proposed change essentially is.

 

 

6 hours ago, Incursion said:

Shadow meld need something done about it’s 3 second animation considering it lasts only 15 seconds which is like 3 attacks. It’s abysmal. Such a cool power, but lasts only 15 seconds.   Maybe make it 30 seconds and increase the recharge? As of now with a lot of recharge in a build it’s up for 15 down foe 12-15 if in a position of needing it. Be a lot more useful if it were up 30, down 30.

Agreed. A 15 second duration is ridiculous for a power that's supposed to be Epic. Perhaps bumping it up to 60 seconds to match Rune of Protection's new duration.

 

 

6 hours ago, Incursion said:

melee EM - love the changes and fast ET/energy focus. Love the scrapper version but the cone power is lame, way too narrow and needing energy focus just to become mediocre makes it just as skippable as stun. Whirling hands is still plain awful, radius is too small and the dmg is poor.

I too love the new Energy Melee. My main since live is Energy Melee. But I think that Energy Melee is supposed to suck at AoE. The current version certainly accomplishes that so I don't see the need for any more changes.

 

 

6 hours ago, Incursion said:

new idea - generic pool set. A pool of random powers that anyone can chose and it doesn’t take up a pool choice. Be cool to get some thematic stuff here, would love a vahzilok buzz saw for example. Nothing overpowered but some decent dmg/utility that could supplant some of the tier one choices of pool powers or basics some attacks.

Now this is something that I'd love to see. Pistol attacks for my Martial Arts Scrapper. A couple of sword attacks for my Defender. Yeah, I could definitely love this option!

 

 

6 hours ago, Incursion said:

for the love of god do something about regen. Make it worth playing again.

I don't think it's in as bad a place as some make it out to be. It definitely needs something though. Perhaps some scaling Damage Resistance or some Absorption?

 

And no. I'm not trying to insult or troll you. This is my honest opinion. And, you might have noticed, that I actually agree with many of your suggestions.

 

[Greycat]

51 minutes ago, dragonhawk777 said:

 Hasten chiefly affects attacks and heals.

 

 

Hahahah.... no.

 

God, I don't even have to go past this one sentence.

 

I've been trying to be polite here. But the more you type, the more you really show you don't get it, and/or refuse to get it, and the cost/benefit of this conversation is skewing heavily towards "all cost, no benefit."

[Alchemystic]

I know my original comment was how people argue this topic over and over, but now we've moved onto arguing the same point over and over...

 

 

[dragonhawk777]

20 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

Hahahah.... no.

 

God, I don't even have to go past this one sentence.

 

I've been trying to be polite here. But the more you type, the more you really show you don't get it, and/or refuse to get it, and the cost/benefit of this conversation is skewing heavily towards "all cost, no benefit."

Why because I dont list every power in the game affected by Hasten.  I like how you just take a piece of my post out of context to try and manipulate things.  Why didnt you include the part about me saying that most defensive powers are toggles and as such dont benefit from Hasten like click powers do.  So yes there are other powers like the cc abilities that also benefit.

 

You have never been polite in any of the responses I have seen you make.  You insult people and are condescending in all the replies I have read by you.  I have yet to see an explanation for any of the questions I have posed to you either, so saying you dont get it just shows you know nothing about the costs of things in this game.  You just sit there and say people dont understand about costs and offer nothing to show you do, particularly in the context of how this game has operated for years, now and when it was part of NCSoft.

[dragonhawk777]

28 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

I know my original comment was how people argue this topic over and over, but now we've moved onto arguing the same point over and over...

 

 

Well maybe if someone would actually answer the questions posed instead of just saying people dont know what they are talking about people might stop arguing about a specific point.  So I will ask again why should Hasten have this cost when none of the other things like IOs or even Incarnate abilities do?  I can literally reach tier 4 on every incarnate ability on any toon and never even step foot in an incarnate trial.  Where is the cost for having incarnate powers?

[Incursion]

44 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

While I agree that Hasten is so powerful that it can seem mandatory, and perhaps too powerful for a pool power, I disagree with making it an inherent power. I have a lot of characters that have Hasten and a lot that don't. My Willpower Tanker and my Force Field Defender literally cannot benefit from Hasten.

 

However, the fact that it is so powerful for some builds is exactly why I think that choosing it should come with a cost. Right now the cost is that it takes up a power slot in your build and uses up one of your pool power slots. Personally I wouldn't be adverse to seeing it nerfed a bit or having a bit of a downside introduced. Perhaps a higher endurance cost?

 

 

I think that Scrappers, Tankers and Stalkers are all in a good place now. I don't think that any of them require additional buffs, which is what your proposed change essentially is.

 

 

Agreed. A 15 second duration is ridiculous for a power that's supposed to be Epic. Perhaps bumping it up to 60 seconds to match Rune of Protection's new duration.

 

 

I too love the new Energy Melee. My main since live is Energy Melee. But I think that Energy Melee is supposed to suck at AoE. The current version certainly accomplishes that so I don't see the need for any more changes.

 

 

Now this is something that I'd love to see. Pistol attacks for my Martial Arts Scrapper. A couple of sword attacks for my Defender. Yeah, I could definitely love this option!

 

 

I don't think it's in as bad a place as some make it out to be. It definitely needs something though. Perhaps some scaling Damage Resistance or some Absorption?

 

And no. I'm not trying to insult or troll you. This is my honest opinion. And, you might have noticed, that I actually agree with many of your suggestions.

 

The biggest thing for me on scrappers/stalkers tanks is that one of the powers before the AOE is such an obvious token pick.  I'm not a fan of gated access but do understand it when it comes down to really strong pool powers (rune, unleashed potential etc).  But for a decent AOE attack when Brutes don't have the same issue?  Brutes are very impressive characters, i would never ask that they be gated like the rest of the melee classes, i feel like they set the bar with that choice. 

 

I love EM too, single target specialist, but both the cone and the AOE are just so underwhelming, i just can't drop either or and pick up and AOE elsewhere without token picks. Adds to my frustration above but thank you for responding to the rest of the OP and not just hasten.  

[Alchemystic]

Just now, dragonhawk777 said:

So I will ask again why should Hasten have this cost when none of the other things like IOs or even Incarnate abilities do?

 

Because they are entirely different aspects of the game?... The effort it takes to make an effective build, or max out your incarnate powers, is considerably more than just picking a power.

 

Just now, dragonhawk777 said:

 I can literally reach tier 4 on every incarnate ability on any toon and never even step foot in an incarnate trial.  Where is the cost for having incarnate powers?

 

Incarnate XP, Incarnate Salvage, Threads, Shards, Merits... not to mention you have to get to level 50 first.

[GM Kaiju]

5 hours ago, GM Impervium said:

Hid some not-nice posts made AFTER Lines' warning. That's Strike 2. Cut the hostility.

 

The end. In the future, please keep it:

• On topic
• Civil
• Constructive