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Focused Feedback: Power Changes (Release Candidate 1)


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50 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

The effort at making pool powers useless makes so people do not pick them because they are useless. Manpower, code hours, etc, all gone to waste. I can imagine the statistics and devs sipping coffee as they look over them:

 

Dev1: 'Hmm, 20% of the players were using RoP. It dropped to 5%.'

Dev2: 'Our job is done.'

 

Please don't tell the devs they're wasting their time. They might be wrong sometimes. But they're not wasting their time. Ever.

 

--

 

Has anyone in this thread playtested RoP on beta yet? Has anyone  run the numbers for the mitigation it provides vs Unleash Potential/Unrelenting? (Bearing in mind that res scales better vs high damage?)

 

That's the way to approach this IMO. Debating the patch notes never really achieves anything.

 

Edited by America's Angel
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20 hours ago, Elthenar said:

When you are tinkering with pet mechanics, would it be possible to buff henchmen max flight speed to match that of the player? They still have the old 58 mph cap, which makes the new Group Fly still rather sad. A MM pet can hit that cap with base, unenhanced group fly.

This is a super good idea.  My bots have the same problem on live right now.  My character just plain runs much faster than back in the day with Sprint, and the bots can no longer keep up.  I am constantly leaving them behind just moving around normally.  If all pets could have their normal running speed increased to match what Sprint gives players now, that would be awesome.

 

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I know it's hard to see a lot of backlash to this change but I kind of have to agree with the criticism of the RoP nerf here.  I broadly love this patch but the nerf to Rune of Protection is going to make me drop Sorcery from my Illusion/Time Controller.  Massively tight build as it is and now I can't really justify taking the set.  Mez protection is pretty important to me on this character in particular and if the duration is going to get reduced so drastically then... meh?  On this build RoP would have a drastically reduced cooldown and I could rely on the power to have good uptime but now this change is a rather direct kick in the nards to this build.  I'm not really sure what amount of testing or data vomit I'd need to post to explain that. 

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2 hours ago, arcane said:

This kind of trend happens in most games because powergamers tend to settle somewhere and stay there as far as power choice/build style. I wouldn’t automatically assume that says a lot about the quality of the other pool powers.

 

Anywho, I think the people seeking to protest the nerf would do better if they would bring data instead of obvious hyperbole. RoP is “useless”? The change “wrecks builds”? Those statements are so self evidently false they work against your cause.

 

Powergamers are usually responding to game design and they tend to settle on particularly functional choices. There's not a lot of mystery about this. So, if build diversity is wanted then making the functionally best choices less obvious is key for bringing that about.  

 

On a connected point it's not that hard to figure out the relative value of power pools. Giving up either hasten or the fighting pool undermines recharge and sustain, which are key drivers of DPS and sustain for a plethora of builds. There are no near equivalents for them in the power pools and so they are *very* popular choices. Leadership offers "always on" benefits in the first three powers that are very helpful for team DPS and sustain and that stack with the same powers provided by others. There are no near equivalents to any of these three power pools. 

 

Picking at least two of these choices will tend to be done for a broad cross-section of builds across all archetypes. If you doubt that, then go scan some builds in different archetype forums and you'll see clear patterns. 

 

Regarding the claim that the RoP duration nerf "wrecks builds" is hyperbole, take a look at the poison guide by Frosticus to see how RoP and hybrid melee core are used to provide an alternative to clarion for mez protection. With RoP up for 90 seconds and melee core up for 2 minutes, down for 2 minutes, there are some occasional gaps in mez protection that result. But, this combination works well for a build that either lives or dies in the thick of battle, which poison defenders do and which some other builds do as well. 

 

That role for RoP will disappear if the duration is cut. Most such builds are likely to be reworked to include clarion destiny or to be shelved.

 

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I play solo most of the time so do not rely on teammates to fill gaps. My testing of the RoP change included the following:

 

Testing see if nerf is noticeable and by how much. I play different when rune is up than when it isn’t. This is especially so on squishies. 
 

Ice/kinetics corrupter:  Performance with RoP is noticeably better than without. The uptime nerf is also noticeable. Still playable? Yes, everything is playable. Worse than before? Absolutely. 
 

MA/Regen Brute: I rotate RoP with instant healing. The uptime nerf is very noticeable. Still playable? Yes. Worse than before? Absolutely. 
 

DP/Ninja Blaster:  RoP is very helpful to protect from mez and also to boost mitigation. Uptime nerf is very noticeable.  Mez still get through even with s/l/e softcap.  Still playable? Yes. Worse than before? Absolutely. 
 

BR/EnA Sentinel: I use RoP mainly to boost resist during stress encounters or among mobs with psi damage. Uptime nerf not as noticeable as on others, but have found myself wanting it up more on psi heavy mobs. RoP is a big part of plugging that hole. Still playable? Yes. Worse than before? Yes. 
 

Dark/Shield Scrapper: Use RoP much the same as for the sentinel. Again, uptime nerf not as noticeable as on the squishies, but did notice it on ranged heavy mobs because of how I fit in RoP. Still playable? Yes. Worse than before? Yes. 


Now for level of annoyance with how the nerf disrupts my playing:

-Ice/kin corruptor: Very High. Get mezzed and it’s basically over if I don’t have a break free. Damage can spike very fast when mez and repel drops. 

-MA/Regen: Very high. The difference between having rune up and not is very noticeable and I hate the gap between rune and instant healing. Kind of takes the wind out of my sails for my regen characters to be honest. 

 

DP/Ninja Blaster: high. Not as annoying as on my regen brute or my kinetics corruptor. Mainly because I damage enough to kill enough mobs to survive well the aftermath without needing to ramp it up with fulcrum shift. Still a mez at the wrong time can = death. 

 

Dark/Shield Scrapper: Moderate. I still survive just fine without it. My main annoyance is that I made very specific build choices to pick up rune for the added resistance. It had enough uptime to make the sacrifices worth it. Now that uptime is likely to be nerfed. 
 

-BR/EnA Sentinel: low. Doesn’t impact me enough to raise a stink about it unless I solely fight psi mobs, which isn’t the case. 

 

How I will adapt if the changes go thru:

- Corruptor: probably just won’t play it as much.
- Blaster:  will probably respec into leadership pool and out of rune. 
-Sentinel: will suck it up and do nothing. 
-Scrapper: will probably respec into leadership and out of rune. 
-Brute: this change really takes the wind out of my sails for regen. I specifically wanted to go high resistance instead of high defense for my regen brute. Will probably shelve for now along with my other regen characters. Just until I get over the change. 

Now for some points of discussion:

I understand the the devs wanting to standardize the duration between the origin pool capstone powers. What I don’t like is standardizing then to 60s instead of 90s. 
 

This change will not make me consider taking the other origin pools instead of sorcery. It will definitely not make me consider taking the crappy armor t9 powers. At best, it’s just annoying and I keep rune. Otherwise, I just respec into leadership like so many other of my characters.  Or I shelve the character until the newness of the nerf wears off. 
 

In my opinion, this change does not promote build diversity. It restricts it. If build diversity was not a consideration of this change, then I would ask that it be considered. If it was, then I don’t think this change promotes it. 
 

As I said in my first piece of feedback, I am bound to not like some changes the devs do. This is one of them. I still appreciate the work the devs do. If the change goes through I will adapt.

Edited by Saikochoro
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Thank you for the hands-on, @Saikochoro.  I have a question - is there something your ice/kin is doing during downtime on RoP? Or is the resist bonus something to keep up sustain over the long-haul?

 

Basically, I'm curious to know how this character is built and what it's doing between Runes.

 

Your DP/Nin: I want to emphasize if you're at all using RoP reactively for mez protection specifically, this character will actually see a lot of benefit to this change over time -- since getting Held, etc. is often the jumping-off point for taking a lot of damage, not having to choose between the break free effect and the resist effect is a pretty big deal.

 

Though again, not so much if you're rotating with something else. (I'm guessing this is for resist though)

Edited by Replacement
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11 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Thank you for the hands-on, @Saikochoro.  I have a question - is there something your ice/kin is doing during downtime on RoP? Or is the resist bonus something to keep up sustain over the long-haul?

 

Basically, I'm curious to know how this character is built and what it's doing between Runes.

 

Your DP/Nin: I want to emphasize if you're at all using RoP reactively for mez protection specifically, this character will actually see a lot of benefit to this change over time -- since getting Held, etc. is often the jumping-off point for taking a lot of damage, not having to choose between the break free effect and the resist effect is a pretty big deal.

 

Though again, not so much if you're rotating with something else.

I do not use defense amplifiers. So it’s either break frees or more careful playing. 
 

When rune is not up adjust my play style mainly by pulling so I don’t get overwhelmed. If I am able to get repel to keep them on their butts and have time to get fulcrum shift off I am generally okay. Like I said, it’s still playable. Just have to be more careful more often. I’ll stick up more on break frees. 
 

Also, I use RoP proactively almost always. The only time I don’t is if I am mezzed, about to die, don’t have a break free and rune comes off cooldown. I understand that there was a buff added, but in my opinion it’s not worth the loss of uptime. 
 

Edit: I think it’s also worth noting something about my general build philosophy as it may shed light on how I view this change. I always try to have my build self contained without using incarnates to plug important holes.  I definitely do not plan builds around using base buffs and temp powers.  So, I never expect to have perma mez protection on squishies for example.  Every important aspect of my build comes thru power picks and slotting. There are two exception to this rule: I build bio armor with barrier in mind and I rely on ageless for my farmers recovery. 

Edited by Saikochoro
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After reading the writeup by @Saikochoro I think that the hidden reason for the RoP nerf is because the devs are giving us what we constantly ask for. It's another regen nerf!

 

Seriously, appreciate the detailed writeup, and I agree with everything said in the points of discussion at the end of the post. Unfortunately, I also agree with the post by @ForeverLaxx that this is essentially a done deal.

 

Whether or not a power is over-tuned is a matter of opinion. In my opinion, RoP was not, but my opinion - and the opinions of nearly everyone who has posted in this thread - do not matter, and we're not here to try to convince any of the players in the thread to change their opinion. What matters is the devs' opinion, and they haven't stated one explicitly - the stated reason for the change was "to match the other Origin pool tier 5 powers," not because "it was overperforming." Some can - and have - argued that since it provides resistance when used while already mezzed that it was either a lateral move or a buff despite the reduced uptime (I'm not one of those). So it's either that the devs felt that it's easier to adjust one power than two others to equalize durations, or they secretly don't like the uptime and want to reduce it, but didn't want to flat out state that.

 

Or they just wanted to nerf regen, and collateral damage was acceptable. 😋

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11 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Powergamers are usually responding to game design and they tend to settle on particularly functional choices. There's not a lot of mystery about this. So, if build diversity is wanted then making the functionally best choices less obvious is key for bringing that about.  

Powergamers tend to settle on things they have calculated to be maximally optimal. In this game, they’ve pretty much decided that is limited to pool options with optimal +defense and +recharge utility. 
 

There is a vast gulf between “not maximally optimal” in that sense and “not potent, useful, or worthwhile”. You may only realize this when you actually bother to forego some of the powergamers’ choices once in awhile; some people will never see it because their brain simply throws an error when you tell them they don’t need soft capped defense and all 5 LotG bonuses to do exceptionally well.

 

EDIT: saw your mention of Poison builds with RoP. I have 6 level 50 Poisons and I would be completely comfortable scrapping without Clarion, Melee, or RoP. So... not sure how that’s meant to be convincing.

Edited by arcane
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2 hours ago, siolfir said:

So it's either that the devs felt that it's easier to adjust one power than two others to equalize durations, or they secretly don't like the uptime and want to reduce it, but didn't want to flat out state that.

Snipped for brevity:


Honestly, wanting to adjust just one instead of two power to create equity is a valid point.  The goal may be nothing more or less than making durations the same and it was just more time effective to change RoP. It may be nothing more than that. Considering they are a volunteer with other real life responsibilities I can honestly understand that. 
 

I think the devs have generally been pretty open about changes they want to make and their reasoning. Even if we don’t necessarily like their reasoning or the change itself.  I do agree however that the change is likely to go through. They have walked back some changes in the past though. So there is hope. If not though I understand. 

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Some of you guys have never had to run across Perez Park at level 7 with CoT Madness Mages one shot mezzing you, and you landing in a group of Vahzilok zombies, and it shows. It built muscle memory from 15 years ago that I still use to this day, regardless if the character I'm playing has mez protection or not.

 

I get that RoP was nice to have, but I personally prefer Unleash Potential even with the 60 second duration. I treat it like a permanently accessible inspiration. With power boost, you can softcap with just that power, and the extra recovery is just a bonus.

 

RoP is resistance based, and gave some Mez protection, but its basically just a Orange/BF inspiration with a recharge on it. Treat it as such, and there won't be any issue. Treat it like a crutch in a build, and I can very much see the issue.

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So, really this boils down to the belief that squishies are too adversely effected by status.

 

If we remove all the peripherial noise...

 

What does RoP do, in the majority? Status protection. That's mainly it. While the arguments against the change are presented in many ways that discuss the how's and why's it shouldn't be changed, it boils down to status protection.

 

Squishies, and I use this term liberally, were not intended to be able to wholly negate status effects, as part of the core game design. RoP went too far in how much status effect it could negate all on its own. Stacked with incarnates? Even further. It was far too simple and cheap to do.

 

The fact that other power pools are undesirable is relatively immaterial to the core issue, squishies should not be able to negate 75-100% of status with one to two powers. Yes, other pool sets should be buffed.

 

Make no mistake though, RoP should not have ever had such a massive uptime on nearly complete avoidance of status.

 

We're dancing around the fact that the real point of not wanting the change is "I don't like mez," which is fine and I get that, but it's part of the game. Squishies should never have been omgfacerolly mez avoidance roflecopters 😄😋 and really, blasters, controllers, and so forth we're always designed to be most powerful on teams. While they absolutely can solo, should they be able to avoid mez like a tank, scrap, brute? That's the crux, RoP was overmuch.

Edited by SwitchFade
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I'd argue that RoP granting resistance when used as a Break Free is actually a MUCH better change, as it allows a squishy to become a 'non-squishy' and ignore the mez for the duration. Thus preventing a faceplant, and giving some freedom to either run away, or stand your ground and actually have a chance to win.

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11 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

I'd argue that RoP granting resistance when used as a Break Free is actually a MUCH better change, as it allows a squishy to become a 'non-squishy' and ignore the mez for the duration. Thus preventing a faceplant, and giving some freedom to either run away, or stand your ground and actually have a chance to win.

 

It's a nice little addition but I'd hope more players than not go into the fight with the anticipation of the mob pushing back in what ways they do.  It wasn't all that hard to pause a second, click RoP if it's up and then go into the fight with both mez protection AND resistance.  With this change it's more or less allowing for more people to be reactionary instead of anticipatory.  That's not better habit building imo.  

 

As a squishy you can always stop and get breakfrees or the defense amplifier temp power as is being pointed out by others on the side of the fence of sure why have RoP as a crutch, what RoP does is allow you to sacrifice some powers for the same effect as bfs and temp powers so you don't have to take time out of your day to stop at the shops and can just get right into playing.  The 30% resistance to all is the draw on this power to me so when it's available why not use it.  

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12 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

I'd argue that reactionary learning is actually better, as it helps built anticipatory learning. If you know that mob can mez you, you kill it first. You don't give it the chance to mez you, but you had to get mezzed first in order to learn that.

I still have muscle memory when it comes to Sappers, and those Embalmed Vahz zombies. They MUST die first. Same thing with Life Mages (who actually grant Clear Mind, one of the strongest Mez protections available) to their friends. Damage is the best form of mez protection, as a dead mob can't mez you.

 

True but those aren't typically the players picking up RoP to begin with.  Once you're hit with those statuses you're keen to learn how to avoid them then that's where you may have these players picking up RoP.  On a squishy I'm under the assumption every mob has a mezzer so I'm leading in with anticipation. 

Edited by Mezmera
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On 3/21/2021 at 11:14 PM, schrodingercat said:

Hello! This may have been reported, but I can't see it. With the movement changes, I figured it needed to be checked.

 

Rooted applies a movement debuff to the user ONLY when Granite armor is toggled on.

First image: Rooted + Granite armor

image.png.297556449992fb61a5df4c58ec85be54.png

Second image: just rooted

image.png.ddb4060d32a1393c4927d3cf76dbdde5.png

 

None of the other movement power changes work in unexpected ways with the powers tested.

WAI.

 

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58 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

So, really this boils down to the belief that squishies are too adversely effected by status.

 

If we remove all the peripherial noise...

 

What does RoP do, in the majority? Status protection. That's mainly it. While the arguments against the change are presented in many ways that discuss the how's and why's it shouldn't be changed, it boils down to status protection.

 

Squishies, and I use this term liberally, were not intended to be able to wholly negate status effects, as part of the core game design. RoP went too far in how much status effect it could negate all on its own. Stacked with incarnates? Even further. It was far too simple and cheap to do.

 

The fact that other power pools are undesirable is relatively immaterial to the core issue, squishies should not be able to negate 75-100% of status with one to two powers. Yes, other pool sets should be buffed.

 

Make no mistake though, RoP should not have ever had such a massive uptime on nearly complete avoidance of status.

 

We're dancing around the fact that the real point of not wanting the change is "I don't like mez," which is fine and I get that, but it's part of the game. Squishies should never have been omgfacerolly mez avoidance roflecopters 😄😋 and really, blasters, controllers, and so forth we're always designed to be most powerful on teams. While they absolutely can solo, should they be able to avoid mez like a tank, scrap, brute? That's the crux, RoP was overmuch.

Rune of protection is used for both status protection and as a resistance boost (or both) depending on the build. So, I disagree it boils down only to status protection. Each use of RoP is equally valid. 

I also disagree that the relative value of other pool powers or power picks is immaterial in the context of the arguments. I’d say that that is one of the most material aspects to the argument. Power picks are all about opportunity cost. I pick up one pool at the expense of another because I feel the relative value is worth the opportunity cost. When the value of a power pick is reduced it is natural to then look at the other powers competing for a chance to be picked. That is what planning a build is all about. The fact that the devs are shooting for parity in duration shows that they are also comparing pool powers. 
 

In my testing of the various builds that use RoP, I have found that they are negatively impacted. This is to be expected with a nerf. Even though the duration is now the same as the other t5s I still wouldn’t pick them for the same reason I didn’t pick them to begin with: I don’t think they have a long enough duration to go that deep into the pool at the expense of other power picks. Instead I will respec back into the tried and true leadership pool on several characters. 
 

I understand wanting to have parity between origin t5 durations. The reasoning behind wanting to achieve parity is likely either due to the devs thinking RoP is overpowered or thinking that they want to see other origin pools picked more. Given that they chose to nerf RoP instead of buffing the duration of the others it would appear that they agree with your stance that it is overpowered. 

I suppose it’s also possible that they purely just wanted the powers to have the same duration with no other deeper thought. Thus people have asked why not increase the duration of the other t5s to match, which would be the same solution as to encourage the picking of the other t5s. 
 

That is where the negative feedback comes into play. They asked us to test the changes and provide feedback. Those of us that have tested and disagree with that stance that RoP is overpowered are sharing our feedback as requested.
 

It shouldn’t be disregarded because some players don’t think RoP should or even is really used for a reason other than mez. It also should not be disregarded just because some people believe an archetype should or should not be able to do something. Archetypes have evolved over the course of the game and the addition of IOs and incarnates have changed a lot of the “should” and “shouldn’t” aspects of the game. People are free to have their opinions on what each archetype should and shouldn’t be able to do, but they are just opinions. None more valid than the other. The devs are free to do with the feedback (positive and negative) as they please. The players will adapt as always. 

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7 minutes ago, Saikochoro said:

Rune of protection is used for both status protection and as a resistance boost (or both) depending on the build. So, I disagree it boils down only to status protection. Each use of RoP is equally valid. 

I also disagree that the relative value of other pool powers or power picks is immaterial in the context of the arguments. I’d say that that is one of the most material aspects to the argument. Power picks are all about opportunity cost. I pick up one pool at the expense of another because I feel the relative value is worth the opportunity cost. When the value of a power pick is reduced it is natural to then look at the other powers competing for a chance to be picked. That is what planning a build is all about. The fact that the devs are shooting for parity in duration shows that they are also comparing pool powers. 
 

In my testing of the various builds that use RoP, I have found that they are negatively impacted. This is to be expected with a nerf. Even though the duration is now the same as the other t5s I still wouldn’t pick them for the same reason I didn’t pick them to begin with: I don’t think they have a long enough duration to go that deep into the pool at the expense of other power picks. Instead I will respec back into the tried and true leadership pool on several characters. 
 

I understand wanting to have parity between origin t5 durations. The reasoning behind wanting to achieve parity is likely either due to the devs thinking RoP is overpowered or thinking that they want to see other origin pools picked more. Given that they chose to nerf RoP instead of buffing the duration of the others it would appear that they agree with your stance that it is overpowered. 

I suppose it’s also possible that they purely just wanted the powers to have the same duration with no other deeper thought. Thus people have asked why not increase the duration of the other t5s to match, which would be the same solution as to encourage the picking of the other t5s. 
 

That is where the negative feedback comes into play. They asked us to test the changes and provide feedback. Those of us that have tested and disagree with that stance that RoP is overpowered are sharing our feedback as requested.
 

It shouldn’t be disregarded because some players don’t think RoP should or even is really used for a reason other than mez. It also should not be disregarded just because some people believe an archetype should or should not be able to do something. Archetypes have evolved over the course of the game and the addition of IOs and incarnates have changed a lot of the “should” and “shouldn’t” aspects of the game. People are free to have their opinions on what each archetype should and shouldn’t be able to do, but they are just opinions. None more valid than the other. The devs are free to do with the feedback (positive and negative) as they please. The players will adapt as always. 

Understandable, I hope you see that I'm not discounting anyone's feedback or opinion.

 

Fundamentally, the squishy AT shouldn't be negating status, that's not an opinion, it's a core balance point in the design of the game. If they can, well then.... That would necessitate a reduction in the abilities they gain in compensation.

 

Status effects exist, if negating them completely is by design, there's no real reason to have them.

 

Resistance offered by RoP is much less significant to the primary purpose it carries, mez protection, as +30% resistnces is not a huge effect unless one is already at 30-40%.

 

Agreed, everyone should have a chance to give feedback. RoP was able to negate anywhere from 50-100% of status effects in sum, and that basically turns a squishy into a scrap/tank/brute in that way. With absurd damage and control. That's way too much from 1-2 powers.

 

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18 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Powergamers are usually responding to game design and they tend to settle on particularly functional choices. There's not a lot of mystery about this. So, if build diversity is wanted then making the functionally best choices less obvious is key for bringing that about.  

 

The other end of this argument is that rune is/was an often suboptimal choice for most builds that used it, and all that was accomplished is making it less desirable for both casuals and 'powergamers' alike.

 

Secondly, I've yet to hear a convincing argument in favor of the rune change. Why did it have to be 'brought in line', and the others not buffed? Unrelenting is so useless that I almost mistook it for a mercenary pet.

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I appreciated reading the feedback that @Saikochoro provided. I think most of the valid points about RoP duration change have already been stated ad nauseum. I am still in the boat that RoP was balanced as it was, not even considering the balancing point that the 2 prerequisite power picks offer little in the way of set bonus mules or being worthwhile power pick ups for stand-alone usage. Even if RoP is reduced to 60s, I still feel the similar T5s in Adrenal Booster, Unleash Potential, and Unrelenting have room for duration increases OR reducing the base cooldown from 600s to something more palatable like 480s.

 

I also wonder if this change to RoP is balanced around IOs or SOs. Because with just SOs at 100% enhanced recharge, and hasten active (which it wouldnt be perma hasten), the current uptime/downtime on RoP is 90s up/132s downtime (would be more downtime when hasten falls off). When you add on an additional 100% global recharge from set bonuses (to get you closer to perma hasten, that many builds go for) you get 90s up/73s downtime, which honestly still feels not broken to me. With 130% global recharge you can shave that down to 60s downtime, or 50% uptime with the change to a 60s duration, but that is a heavy build investment where you're likely giving up other things to have that much global recharge.

 

So my question to developers here would be is RoP duration change being balanced around SOs where the uptime/downtime of RoP is approx 60/140 or is RoP being balanced around what you can do with RoP with heavy investment into global recharge. 

 

On Live I currently only take RoP on my blasters, mostly because they don't get very good values from tough/weave, and on everything else I prefer to use speed/leaping/leadership/fighting because of the always-on values that they provide (and the 4 lotg slots that you can get with those selections) and it is boring as all heck. I do not have softcapped defenses on my favorite blaster that uses RoP, because I invested more into global recharge and offense to build around making RoP viable even at a 90s duration. The trade off for picking up sorcery on live ALREADY feels like a heavy price to pay for 90s up/60s downtime (with a fully kitted out recharge focused IO build), which is why I only use it on a single archetype. I would never consider picking it up in a leveling build at a 90s duration because without global recharge bonuses the downtime is absolutely killer.

 

If RoP is reduced in duration to 60s thats fine, like others we deal with what is handed to us even if we don't like it or it doesn't make sense to us, but I think this is a very wrong direction for power pool balance. All pool powers, like your choice in epic/patron pick should feel like a decision that has trade-offs, where by choosing one thing you're giving up on something else. Currently most power pools choices fall into one of several categories: set bonus mule, passive defense/recharge pad, passive leadership toggles, or underwhelming flavor choice that you took for character concept and you really wish was better. The flavor picks, even if they have longer cooldowns, really need a boost to feel worthwhile using when you're weighing it against PASSIVE stat buffs that typically do more for your character than a power that you need to click.

Edited by DreadShinobi
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Currently on fire.

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2 minutes ago, DreadShinobi said:

I appreciated reading the feedback that @Saikochoro provided. I think most of the valid points about RoP duration change have already been stated ad nauseum. I am still in the boat that RoP was balanced as it was, not even considering the balancing point that the 2 prerequisite power picks offer little in the way of set bonus mules or being worthwhile power pick ups for stand-alone usage. Even if RoP is reduced to 60s, I still feel the similar T5s in Adrenal Booster, Unleash Potential, and Unrelenting have room for duration increases OR reducing the base cooldown from 600s to something more palatable like 480s.

 

I also wonder if this change to RoP is balanced around IOs or SOs. Because with just SOs at 100% enhanced recharge, and hasten active (which it wouldnt be perma hasten), the current uptime/downtime on RoP is 90s up/132s downtime (would be more downtime when hasten falls off). When you add on an additional 100% global recharge from set bonuses (to get you closer to perma hasten, that many builds go for) you get 90s up/73s downtime, which honestly still feels not broken to me. With 130% global recharge you can shave that down to 60s downtime, or 50% uptime with the change to a 60s duration, but that is a heavy build investment where you're likely giving up other things to have that much global recharge.

 

So my question to developers here would be is RoP duration change being balanced around SOs where the uptime/downtime of RoP is approx 60/140 or is RoP being balanced around what you can do with RoP with heavy investment into global recharge. 

 

On Live I currently only take RoP on my blasters, mostly because they don't get very good values from tough/weave, and on everything else I prefer to use speed/leaping/leadership/fighting because of the always-on values that they provide (and the 4 lotg slots that you can get with those selections). The trade off for picking up sorcery on live ALREADY feels like a heavy price to pay for 90s up/60s downtime (with a fully kitted out recharge focused IO build), which is why I only use it on a single archetype. I would never consider picking it up in a leveling build at a 90s duration because without global recharge bonuses the downtime is absolutely killer.

 

If RoP is reduced in duration to 60s thats fine, like others we deal with what is handed to us even if we don't like it or it doesn't make sense to us, but I think this is a very wrong direction for power pool balance. All pool powers, like your choice in epic/patron pick should feel like a decision that has trade-offs, where by choosing one thing you're giving up on something else. Currently most power pools choices fall into one of several categories: set bonus mule, passive defense/recharge pad, passive leadership toggles, or underwhelming flavor choice that you took for character concept and you really wish was better. The flavor picks, even if they have longer cooldowns, really need a boost to feel worthwhile using when you're weighing it against PASSIVE stat buffs that typically do more for your character than a power that you need to click.

So, that actually validates the reduction. It's possible on live, now, to get 90s up with only 60 down. That's way overtuned. Squishies should not be at that kind of mitigation to status, that's a core precept of the game design. If they were intended to get to 75-100% well, then damage, control and buffs would all have to be reduced. Even WITH the new 60s duration, it's still possible to hit 50% mitigation, before incarnates.

 

For the same reason that controllers don't have their group hold on a 120 second recharge, or TW isn't absurdly overtuned, or ....

 

If squishies keep that level of status mitigation, then, balance might thenead to: nukes go back on crash and 600s recharge, holds get cut by 20%, blaster damage is reduced by 25%, containment damage is reduced from double to 1.5...... so on. There's a whole slew of mechanics that squishies get, that non-smooshies do not.

 

Notwithstanding that pools across the board need buffing, but that is outside of RoP being absurd at 75-100% mitigation when combined with 2 other powers.

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I don't like that the change to the duration of Rune has not be justified.  I also get that some changes need to be tested by actually releasing them live to get enough true sense of their impact.

 

But the problem here is that a major Mez mitigation tool is being nerfed without any attention to the broader issue that Mez is a binary threat that some ATs can almost completely ignore and for others is a matter of life and death.  This is like removing free-range /enterbasefrompasscode without improving other tools to replace it.

 

Although fixing Mez is a much harder thing, because it has been wrong since the beginning of City of Heroes.  Else why would nerfing player Mez be one of the major differences between PvE and PvP.  How player mez is in PvP is an attempt to make Mez less of a problem, not as good as getting right at the start.  But getting it right at the start was more a matter of luck and that didn't happen with Mez.

 

Mez should not be binary, doing nothing or removing player agency.  It should have levels.  Perhaps Slows should ramp up to immobilizing and Recharge reduction should ramp up to holds.

 

But fixing Mez in an established game is hard and would generate more grief for the devs than Page 1 and Page 2 put together.  So I understand their not touching it.  But alas, nerfing Rune is touching on Mez.

 

4 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

We're dancing around the fact that the real point of not wanting the change is "I don't like mez," which is fine and I get that, but it's part of the game. Squishies should never have been omgfacerolly mez avoidance roflecopters 😄😋 and really, blasters, controllers, and so forth we're always designed to be most powerful on teams. While they absolutely can solo, should they be able to avoid mez like a tank, scrap, brute? That's the crux, RoP was overmuch.

 

But it's still there with Defense Amplifiers, at 2.5million Inf/hour.  And I strongly disagree with your position here.

 

 

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1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

 

You show me a build with 60s rune downtime, and I'll show you a liar.

 

Well to be fair my dom has Unleash Potential down to a sub 150s recharge.  With the math on that Rune calculation that'd be 150s.  So I'm a liar 😛

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Just now, Mezmera said:

 

Well to be fair my dom has Unleash Potential down to a sub 150s recharge.  With the math on that Rune calculation that'd be 150s.  So I'm a liar 😛

 

I actually misread that post originally, so I hid that response. It's possible, but it's not exactly an easy thing to do for a non-time character.

 

I just find it humorous that some people think they're the arbiter of what's a deserved nerf and what's not. If I wanted to, I could make a fire/fire blaster and destroy the entire game by pressing burn with perma hasten, high resists, softcapped defenses and all the standard pool choices.

 

But if someone has high rune of protection uptime, it's now a problem? Get real. This game isn't balanced, it never will be balanced, let people try different things.

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  • GM Arcanum changed the title to Focused Feedback: Power Changes (Release Candidate 1)

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