Struggle free of mez effects

[MTeague]

16 minutes ago, Tad Cooper said:

You know what? I agree with Night and Tyrannical. Break frees and Clarion exist, so if you want to avoid mez you should have to use them. This should apply to everyone, so we should remove all mez protect from armor classes, and we should have all toggles drop if you get mezzed. That was what the game was originally balanced around.

 

Then we should implement Parabola's idea.

Perhaps if you also remove all incarnates and all IO's and all villain classes and anything that existed after launch. 

Hyperbole is fun!  /s

[Alchemystic]

@Tad Cooper what are you talking about?

 

I never once said everyone should just use break frees, let alone suggest we remove mez protection powers completely, that's absurd.

 

What I did say was that if you are struggling with mez, it always helps to have a teammate playing an archetype that can help you overcome that obstacle, or simply play an archetype that has personal mez protection.

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

@Tad Cooper what are you talking about?

 

I never once said everyone should just use break frees, let alone suggest we remove mez protection powers completely, that's absurd.

 

What I did say was that if you are struggling with mez, it always helps to have a teammate playing an archetype that can help you overcome that obstacle, or simply play an archetype that has personal mez protection.

 

And if you're playing a character with low DPS it helps to team with someone that can dish it out.

And if you're playing with a character with low mitigation it helps to team with someone that can add to it.

 

And absolutely none of that matters at all when considering archetype balance just as it doesn't matter if you want to consider inspiration usage or cheat code P2W usage or any other silly metric.

[Parabola]

17 minutes ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

I'm terribly sorry to see your thread get so entirely hijacked, @parabola.

 

In a potentially vain attempt, I would like to try to reiterate the intent here:

 

It's not about breaking free from a Hold.

It's about giving a player something to do to feel like they're still engaged with the game while Held.

 

All the existing gameplay tactics for freeing someone from Hard Control are still viable and valuable, but they're not infinite, universally accessible, or available at levels where Hard Control can hit the player.

This suggestion provides players with a way to continue playing the game under conditions where they would otherwise be unable to do so at all due to the extreme nature of Hard Control.

Yeah thanks. In many respects it shouldn't come as a surprise that this has degenerated into a game balance argument with some 'learn to play' overtones and the usual deep philosophical arguments over soloing vs teaming. Goodness knows I've been involved in enough of both of those so I can't really complain but of course none of that is what this idea is about if people would actually stop to read and understand it.

 

Anyway ... carry on all.

[Bill Z Bubba]

35 minutes ago, arcane said:

So you’re really still talking about solo play when you think about it. Which has been covered and rebutted.

 

If I'm talking about a team of 8 players I'm not talking about solo play, am I?

[Parabola]

15 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

As a means to get back on track, I do like this idea, but the devil is in the details, and implementing it, when there are already plenty of other ways to circumvent Status Effect might not be much value added.

 

Though, now that I think about it, it might be possible to create a new Accolade power that scales based on say, the Mez badges you have. So the more you've been Mez'ed, the more 'resistant' you are to them. Granted, this requires actually getting mez'ed in the first place, but it could make getting those badges actually useful instead of just a 'for show' thing, and it conceptually makes sense. The more you're affected by something, the more you would resist it.

(the mez badges are these: https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Restrained_Badge)

 

Yeah I like that. Perhaps the mez badges could modify the effect of the 'struggle' powers making them more effective for the endurance spent etc.

[MTeague]

I guess my main objection is that I do think different kinds of mobs should have different ways to be dangerous.

It would be boring if every opponent was just a blaster or scrapper. 

• Some enemies are dangerous because of raw melee output.
• Some enemies are dangerous because of Debuffs (Tsoo Sorcererors, CoT Ghosts dropping your to-hit, the Shepherds in First Ward, etc)
• Some enemies are dangerous because of buffs they bring (Nemesis Vengeance, Rikti that bubble each other, or Devouring Earth emanators that spike the enemy's to-hit, Rularuu Eyeballs, etc.)
• Some enemies are dangerous because they impair your ability to move about the battlefield (300,000 Caltrops patches from Knives of Artemis, or being Siphon Speed'd by 6 Red or Blue Ink Men)
• Some enemies are dangerous because of End Drain (Sappers, Touch of Vitae,  Super Stunners, etc)
• Some enemies are dangerous because of Crowd Control.   (Yellow Ink Men, Master Illusionists, CoT Succubi, Malta tasers, the list goes on)

All of these and more, I consider to be a Good Thing. 

There should be a variety of threats. Not everything should be counterable by everyone. 

IMO, anyway. 

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

If I'm talking about a team of 8 players I'm not talking about solo play, am I?

You literally said the only reason some scrapper ITF none of us have any knowledge of went well is because the scrappers were able to just go solo.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, arcane said:

You literally said the only reason some scrapper ITF none of us have any knowledge of went well is because the scrappers were able to just go solo.

 

Which is still a team of 8 players accomplishing a task provided by the game.

[Arbegla]

This is more a mechanics question, but does Status Effect Resistance apply even after you have a Status Effect applied to you?

 

I/E, you get hit with an 8 second hold, then someone puts Accelerated metabolism on you, does the 8 second hold then go down to ~4 seconds? (I think I did the math right on that..) Or does it only apply to 'new' status effects?

[arcane]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Which is still a team of 8 players accomplishing a task provided by the game.

Technically true, but the way you continue to demonstrate that you couldn’t care less about team play really shines through in your example. Anyway, that’s off topic. Still waiting on you to provide evidence that the devs ever intended classes to be balanced around solo play?

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Arbegla said:

This is more a mechanics question, but does Status Effect Resistance apply even after you have a Status Effect applied to you?

 

I/E, you get hit with an 8 second hold, then someone puts Accelerated metabolism on you, does the 8 second hold then go down to ~4 seconds? (I think I did the math right on that..) Or does it only apply to 'new' status effects?

 

It applies against anything already on you.

[TemporalVileTerror]

Another attempt at a point of clarity here:

This isn't about countering Control.

It's about not sitting on your thumbs waiting for a Control to expire.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, arcane said:

Technically true, but the way you continue to demonstrate that you couldn’t care less about team play really shines through in your example. Anyway, that’s off topic. Still waiting on you to provide evidence that the devs ever intended classes to be balanced around solo play?

 

With the introduction of the solo path to incarnate progress. With the existence of "good to solo" definitions in the archetype descriptions. With the continued balance changes that made it easier for X AT to solo. Etc, etc, ad nauseum.

[Alchemystic]

1 minute ago, parabola said:

Yeah thanks. In many respects it shouldn't come as a surprise that this has degenerated into a game balance argument with some 'learn to play' overtones and the usual deep philosophical arguments over soloing vs teaming. Goodness knows I've been involved in enough of both of those so I can't really complain but of course none of that is what this idea is about if people would actually stop to read and understand it.

 

Yeah, I did try to move past that argument, even tried to bring it around back to your original idea by suggesting that it was fairly similar to the functionality of Mez Resistance. But people seem more interested in being obstructive than contributing to the discussion.

 

Now I know this is going to be another point of contention, but Blaster's defiance isn't the only problem. I can imagine going up against Malta and Freakshow is going to be problematic for a suggestion like this, because they pair powerful mez with a lot of endurance drain. I'd also argue from an AE or PvP standpoint, having characters going around with Electric Control is going to be extremely powerful in light of these changes, as that one powerset alone has some seriously strong mez potential with the added bonus of reliable endurance drain.

[arcane]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

With the introduction of the solo path to incarnate progress. With the existence of "good to solo" definitions in the archetype descriptions. With the continued balance changes that made it easier for X AT to solo. Etc, etc, ad nauseum.

So you are saying here they are designed to be able to solo, period. Which is true, yes.

 

I felt you were implying they are intended to be able to solo *at balanced rates of XP/min*. Which is plainly not true. So was I just misreading you then?

[Arbegla]

5 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

It applies against anything already on you.

 

So having a scaling Mez resistance (not protection, just resistance) mechanic, could work. The arguments against if its needed or not can be made another time, but thematically, its possible, and makes sense.

 

I could even see this being a 'Resist Status Effect' Accolade power, that grants something like 25% resistance for say, 60 seconds, with a 300 second recharge, and be unaffected by recharge (even global) so you can't perma it, but the effect scales based on the Mez badges you have, so after 10 hours of being Mez'ed, you have 75% resistance. (so things last 1/4 the time)

 

It won't prevent toggle drops, and Mez will still be a challenge, but it allows you to do something while you're stuck. Kinda like the Eye of the Magus Accolade power, and how its basically a T9 for a minute or so, with very little drawback.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, arcane said:

So you are saying here they are designed to be able to solo, period. Which is true, yes.

 

I felt you were implying they are intended to be able to solo *at balanced rates of XP/min*. Which is plainly not true. So was I just misreading you then?

 

I'm stating that the current lack of imbalance can be shown by the ridiculous variance in xp/time gain by X given powerset. If x/y defender can only increase the xp/time gain of a team by Z% but a scrapper can increase the team's gain by Z+variable% then the balance is horrifically broken because scrapper X can always attain greater than defender X xp/time while solo.

 

This ain't rocket surgery.

[Parabola]

1 minute ago, Tyrannical said:

 

Yeah, I did try to move past that argument, even tried to bring it around back to your original idea by suggesting that it was fairly similar to the functionality of Mez Resistance. But people seem more interested in being obstructive than contributing to the discussion.

 

Now I know this is going to be another point of contention, but Blaster's defiance isn't the only problem. I can imagine going up against Malta and Freakshow is going to be problematic for a suggestion like this, because they pair powerful mez with a lot of endurance drain. I'd also argue from an AE or PvP standpoint, having characters going around with Electric Control is going to be extremely powerful in light of these changes, as that one powerset alone has some seriously strong mez potential with the added bonus of reliable endurance drain.

Yup, another valid point. Having endurance spend being the cost for reducing mez duration seems the simplest thing but it would be problematic in end drain scenarios. Then again none of this is designed to replace the existing mechanics - waiting out the mez would work in exactly the same way as it currently does. Or we could try to come up with another opportunity cost for using the 'struggle' power.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

So having a scaling Mez resistance (not protection, just resistance) mechanic, could work. The arguments against if its needed or not can be made another time, but thematically, its possible, and makes sense.

 

No it can't due to how offensive toggles drop when mezzed.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I'm stating that the current lack of imbalance can be shown by the ridiculous variance in xp/time gain by X given powerset. If x/y defender can only increase the xp/time gain of a team by Z% but a scrapper can increase the team's gain by Z+variable% then the balance is horrifically broken because scrapper X can always attain greater than defender X xp/time while solo.

 

This ain't rocket surgery.

Trying to keep the question to soloing.. hard to be coherent when the topic keeps changing..

[Arbegla]

5 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I'm stating that the current lack of imbalance can be shown by the ridiculous variance in xp/time gain by X given powerset. If x/y defender can only increase the xp/time gain of a team by Z% but a scrapper can increase the team's gain by Z+variable% then the balance is horrifically broken because scrapper X can always attain greater than defender X xp/time while solo.

 

This ain't rocket surgery.

 

Not to throw fuel on this fire, but how much of this is set at the highest of high end IO/Incarnate power levels? Cuz that matters a bit more in the overall aspect of comparing apples to apples.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, arcane said:

Trying to keep the question to soloing.. hard to be coherent when the topic keeps changing..

 

Why should I? You and others keep bringing the teaming aspect into it.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Arbegla said:

Not to throw fuel on this fire, but how much of this is set at the highest of high end IO/Incarnate power levels? Cuz that matters a bit more in the overall aspect of comparing apples to apples.

 

Irrelevant. Full stop. What matters at +4/x8 matters at +0/x1.

[MTeague]

8 minutes ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Another attempt at a point of clarity here:

This isn't about countering Control.

It's about not sitting on your thumbs waiting for a Control to expire.

I'm not sure I agree with that. 

I get that you're not talking about hard mez protection. 

But if you're able to break yourself out of early, you are kind of countering it.

 

Do I get to have a mini-game to avoid taking excessive amounts of smashing / psionic / fire damage?  Or a mini-game to avoid end drain or to-hit debuffs?

I'll drop the objections after this last post, because I'm afraid it will go round-and-round in a loop. 

But I find it hard to say why this and not that?  I'd rather "no" across the board.