Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (FLIGHT POOL) - Build 3

[Starforge]

16 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Global Recharge IO mules.

*Raises hand*

[Bopper]

48 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

We don't know how many people who pick up fight pool, and use it primarily as KB protection, Slow Resist, or Global Recharge IO mules. 

 

It may not be as edge case as you think.

I wasn't referring to popularity of slotting as my definition of edge case, I was referring to the spectrum of slotting options (in this case, not slotting being on one end of that spectrum).

 

But we can look at it in terms of popularity. In this scenario, it's probably safe to assume someone who slots for KB protection, Slow Resist or LotG + Recharge bonuses are using IO sets throughout their build. So we should factor in Movement Speed bonuses. Without slotting AB, the speed cap is 72.95 mph, and by not slotting Fly speed enhancements anywhere in Fly or AB you will travel at a speed of 70.693 mph (71.94 mph if you slot a Level 50 IO into Swift, which you can't mule). It will only take 10.5% movement speed buffs (5% if you slot Swift) to reach that 72.95 mph cap.

 

As for Page 2, we are sitting at 68.85 mph (70.10 mph if you slot a Lvl 50 IO into Swift). That means you will need 19.1% Movement Speed buffs (13.3% if you slot Swift) to reach the fly speed cap.

 

Personally, I always have at least 15% movement speed buff in my builds if I'm slotting IO sets. I always get the 2-piece bonus from Performance Shifter in my Stamina, then I'll typically have Gaussian's 2-piece bonus in one of my +To-Hit powers (Aim or Build Up, typically). There are other common ones like Aegis and Thunderstrike, but for the most part my builds get at least 15% without trying to chase the bonus. Assuming you slot Swift with an IO, that 15% would be enough for the cap. If you don't, then that 15% takes you to 72.07 mph. So in the "edge case" where someone doesn't slot any Fly enhancements in Swift nor their Fly powers and didn't get more that 15% movement speed bonuses into their muled-out build, then yes, you will only go 99% as fast as you would on Live.

 

Of course, if you were really hurting, you could just go ahead and grab yourself the Base Empowerment that boosts fly strength and you'll be going 78.33 mph vs 75.82 mph, without set bonuses. And since set bonuses can't raise your cap, that 78.33 mph will only grow further away from Live's numbers.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Bopper

[Derek Icelord]

3 hours ago, Jimmy said:

The problem is that on live, slotting Fly is mostly pointless, so many players don't actually have slots there. I can appreciate it's a bit of a pain for existing builds, but going forwards you'll need to put your slots and enhancements in Fly (not Afterburner / EvMa) if you want your travel speed to be high. If you want combat speed, you can slot EvMa.

 

Given how slot starved most of my builds get, I'd much rather pick up a couple more powers I don't need to budget slots for than try and carve slots out to retain the ability to hit the flight speed cap.

[Captain Citadel]

It'd really be preferable to be able to hit the speed cap with Fly just by slotting a 50+5 +FlySpeed IO in Swift and Fly. I would hope the same was true for Super Speed and Super Jump, using Swift and Hurdle, respectively.

[Infinitum]

17 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I wasn't referring to popularity of slotting as my definition of edge case, I was referring to the spectrum of slotting options (in this case, not slotting being on one end of that spectrum).

 

But we can look at it in terms of popularity. In this scenario, it's probably safe to assume someone who slots for KB protection, Slow Resist or LotG + Recharge bonuses are using IO sets throughout their build. So we should factor in Movement Speed bonuses. Without slotting AB, the speed cap is 72.95 mph, and by not slotting Fly speed enhancements anywhere in Fly or AB you will travel at a speed of 70.693 mph (71.94 mph if you slot a Level 50 IO into Swift, which you can't mule). It will only take 10.5% movement speed buffs (5% if you slot Swift) to reach that 72.95 mph cap.

 

As for Page 2, we are sitting at 68.85 mph (70.10 mph if you slot a Lvl 50 IO into Swift). That means you will need 19.1% Movement Speed buffs (13.3% if you slot Swift) to reach the fly speed cap.

 

Personally, I always have at least 15% movement speed buff in my builds if I'm slotting IO sets. I always get the 2-piece bonus from Performance Shifter in my Stamina, then I'll typically have Gaussian's 2-piece bonus in one of my +To-Hit powers (Aim or Build Up, typically). There are other common ones like Aegis and Thunderstrike, but for the most part my builds get at least 15% without trying to chase the bonus. Assuming you slot Swift with an IO, that 15% would be enough for the cap. If you don't, then that 15% takes you to 72.07 mph. So in the "edge case" where someone doesn't slot any Fly enhancements in Swift nor their Fly powers and didn't get more that 15% movement speed bonuses into their muled-out build, then yes, you will only go 99% as fast as you would on Live.

 

Of course, if you were really hurting, you could just go ahead and grab yourself the Base Empowerment that boosts fly strength and you'll be going 78.33 mph vs 75.82 mph, without set bonuses. And since set bonuses can't raise your cap, that 78.33 mph will only grow further away from Live's numbers.

Yeah i get what you are saying in all of that - I slot BotZ KB protection in fly and could easily slot a fly speed increase in it to boost it - but thats not the point. 

 

Setting all that aside - again - one of the talking points was on build 1 and 2 you dont have to change any slotting and you are still faster and a decent bit faster than Live if you dont change anything.  And those build 1 and 2 numbers werent at the cap either way, the biggest problem i have with it now - is that its no longer a buff to fly aside from boosting the caps - which is great - but with all the testing cycles these changes have gone through, why is this coming out now instead of leading with this change?

 

Honestly it doesnt feel like much of a change at all now aside from increasing combat speed with hover + EvM which is nice - but im not seeing the justification warranted for lowering the flight speed to the degree it was lowered from build 2 to build 3 - aside from thats just the way it has to be.

 

like i said it should at least IMO be a slight bit faster than live under the same slotting.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah i get what you are saying in all of that - I slot BotZ KB protection in fly and could easily slot a fly speed increase in it to boost it - but thats not the point. 

 

Setting all that aside - again - one of the talking points was on build 1 and 2 you dont have to change any slotting and you are still faster and a decent bit faster than Live if you dont change anything.  And those build 1 and 2 numbers werent at the cap either way, the biggest problem i have with it now - is that its no longer a buff to fly aside from boosting the caps - which is great - but with all the testing cycles these changes have gone through, why is this coming out now instead of leading with this change?

 

Honestly it doesnt feel like much of a change at all now aside from increasing combat speed with hover + EvM which is nice - but im not seeing the justification warranted for lowering the flight speed to the degree it was lowered from build 2 to build 3 - aside from thats just the way it has to be.

 

like i said it should at least IMO be a slight bit faster than live under the same slotting.

It certainly is a fair concern to have, but it's also worth keeping in mind that you still have Afterburner at your disposal. Even if you're unslotted, you're looking at 30s of 91.49 mph followed by 60s of 68.85 mph. Average that out, you're at 76.4 mph (which is the worst case scenario, as you'll likely always start with AB on while not necessarily ending your travel right when AB comes back off cooldown). So when you factor in AB providing you an average of 76.4 mph, you're still going faster than Live's 72.95 mph 70.693 mph.

 

Edit:

Did some quick math, it turns out as long as you use AB for more than 5.31s, you will be able to average more speed than you do on Live.

 

68.853 x 60s + 91.487 x Time = 70.693 x (60 + Time)

Time x (91.487 - 70.693) = 60 x (70.693 - 68.853)

Time = 60 x 1.84 / 20.794 = 5.31s

Edited March 29, 2021 by Bopper
Corrected numbers to reflect no buffs, included analysis of minimum AB on time to match Live

[mechahamham]

As of this build, upon training up to level 4 and selecting the flight pool, Afterburner still shows up in the list of powers that can be selected, although it's grey.

[Infinitum]

44 minutes ago, Bopper said:

It certainly is a fair concern to have, but it's also worth keeping in mind that you still have Afterburner at your disposal. Even if you're unslotted, you're looking at 30s of 91.49 mph followed by 60s of 68.85 mph. Average that out, you're at 76.4 mph (which is the worst case scenario, as you'll likely always start with AB on while not necessarily ending your travel right when AB comes back off cooldown). So when you factor in AB providing you an average of 76.4 mph, you're still going faster than Live's 72.95 mph 70.693 mph.

 

Edit:

Did some quick math, it turns out as long as you use AB for more than 5.31s, you will be able to average more speed than you do on Live.

 

68.853 x 60s + 91.487 x Time = 70.693 x (60 + Time)

Time x (91.487 - 70.693) = 60 x (70.693 - 68.853)

Time = 60 x 1.84 / 20.794 = 5.31s

I know all the math to it Bopper, lol

 

I'm still sticking to my guns on build three being a bit to heavy handed on what was taken away from EvM vs what wad added to fly - just to make it the same as build 1 and 2 - I will have to unslot 40 characters or replace a 1-2million inf enh just to equal what build one and two did just by logging in.

 

Thats roughly 40-80 million inf just to make this equal to what was already a good build on B1 and B2. Especially when all the initial wording was hey look with Fly+EvM its slightly faster than live fly+AB .  

 

Now there is validity to all the previous claims that it will require respecs or slot changes to take full advantage of it.

 

Not the end of the world - but also completely avoidable for a slight buff to fly speed compared to what B3 yields.

[ScarySai]

5 hours ago, Jimmy said:

However if you think EvMa is now too slow for its primary purpose (combat mobility), that is feedback we'd like to hear

 

Add my name to the hat, then. I liked it better when I had full control and high speed after an attack.  Suppresses way too much now.

 

The speed shift overall just adds legitimacy to the awful arguments made in past threads. It was fine.

[ForeverLaxx]

36 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

The speed shift overall just adds legitimacy to the awful arguments made in past threads. It was fine.

This is the part that confused me. It's like they saw the complaints that didn't make any sense, then went and changed the powers so that the complaints were now valid. Seems kind of backwards, doesn't it?

 

Put me in the camp for not liking this adjustment. Being slower out of the box while also having to shift more slots and powers around to get back what was already working fine before feels like a bad change to me.

[Troo]

10 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

However if you think EvMa is now too slow for its primary purpose (combat mobility), that is feedback we'd like to hear

 

Too slow for combat mobility.. well no. It is not too slow for that.

 

 

Meanwhile, it is a tad comical to see the staunch supporters complain now when it hits their builds, play style, or preference.

 

 

[Myrmidon]

11 hours ago, VV said:

So, question, does running Hover+Fly+EM together provide any benefits over Fly+EM or Hover+EM? Either in combat or our of combat?

Magneto flight.😁

[twozerofoxtrot]

Binding Afterburner to a hotkey seems to activate/deactivate Evasive Maneuvers if AB is on cooldown. 

 

Rebinding Afterburner did not fix the issue.

 

[America's Angel]

Just tested live vs beta.

 

I discovered that...

• Flight + Evasive Manuevers is slower than Flight + Afterburner on live
• Flight + Evasive Manuevers has less movement control than Flight + Afterburner  on live
• Flight + Evasive Manuevers gives me less defense than Flight + Afterburner  on live.

So this is a pretty significant nerf to flyers.

 

What a shame. I was looking forward to this. 

**EDIT**
The flight control being lower was due to a bug. It should match live when working properly.

Edited March 29, 2021 by America's Angel

[Hew]

9 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

 

We don't know how many people who pick up fight pool, and use it primarily as KB protection, Slow Resist, or Global Recharge IO mules. 

 

It may not be as edge case as you think.

Me.

 

[Hew]

11 hours ago, Jimmy said:

However if you think EvMa is now too slow for its primary purpose (combat mobility), that is feedback we'd like to hear.

 

Put it back to the damn way it was right before this silliness.  It was in a good spot before this change.

[chi1701]

13 hours ago, GM Impervium said:

You hover a little faster 😃
 

 

Have customisations been added to peace bringers hover?

[Hew]

35 minutes ago, chi1701 said:

 

Have customisations been added to peace bringers hover?

Tail first? Tentacles down? In reverse?

 

Its a squid, not entirely sure how they might fly alternatively 😄

[Ohsirus]

Am I the only one who really cares less about the speed of Flight? I never slot it for anything other than Endu reduction and it's not like anyone is flying far far distances.

[Replacement]

One thing that bothers me about the general direction of these conversations (especially in the past threads), is how much people were using fly+evasive Maneuvers as a way around using the Afterburner click.

 

Previous complaints about Fly changes are not the reason for this current batch of changes (that appears to be more about combat flight speed), but it has shaped the way Feedback is flowing.

 

To put it briefly: Fly allows you to ignore verticality and most aggro and afk your way to your objective. 

Afterburner says "you are allowed to be fast, or afk. But not both."

Is that really so bad?

 

So that's broadly my perspective. But this still sounds like the current values are a little overcorrected:

4 hours ago, America's Angel said:

Just tested live vs beta.

 

I discovered that...

• Flight + Evasive Manuevers is slower than Flight + Afterburner on live
• Flight + Evasive Manuevers has less movement control than Flight + Afterburner  on live
• Flight + Evasive Manuevers gives me less defense than Flight + Afterburner  on live.

So this is a pretty significant nerf to flyers.

 

What a shame. I was looking forward to this. 

Especially less flight control. 

[Jimmy]

4 hours ago, America's Angel said:

• Flight + Evasive Manuevers has less movement control than Flight + Afterburner  on live
•  

Speed concerns aside - this shouldn't be the case. Can you test again to confirm this wasn't due to the bug causing EvMa's effects to fall off?

[Infinitum]

9 minutes ago, Replacement said:

One thing that bothers me about the general direction of these conversations (especially in the past threads), is how much people were using fly+evasive Maneuvers as a way around using the Afterburner click.

Well it wasnt so much as a way to get around the AB click - because that was a nice bonus too any way you slice it, but it was postures from the beginning that fly+EvM would faster than or at least equal to live fly+AB and now that isnt the case - its slower unless you want to unslot and convert every character you have that has fly to take advantage of the cap. Which is fine but it should have never been postured as the other way if this was the original goal.

 

It may not seem like a harsh change to some people unless you have 40+ characters that have fly that now require you to change slotting to take advantage of the increased caps where 1 build ago you didn't - and even then I wasnt at the cap but was faster that the live version of fly+AB and was totally fine with that.

 

Any version of it should at least be as fast as or a tad faster than live so you at least feel good about having the option to leave some builds alone.

 

And I realize there are ways to manipulate it by rotating jump packs and boosters with click AB to virtually make it perma - but if never been a big fan of playing that way.

 

This change just feels lile an overcorrection because of fly+EvM now being slower than live fly+AB

 

I still like the implementation of it just not the latest cut back.

[Sovera]

For what's worth I'd like the changes to be reverted as well. It's nice and good to say we can slot our travel powers to go faster, but in practice who has the slots to spare for this?

 

6 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

And I realize there are ways to manipulate it by rotating jump packs and boosters with click AB to virtually make it perma - but if never been a big fan of playing that way.

 

This doesn't even work anymore since we can't alternate jump packs and we need AB to break the flight cap. But, if this change goes through it may bring back the jump packs.

[ScarySai]

Ix nay on the ump jay ack bay.

[Troo]

9 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah, you are off the mark as usual Troo.

 

lol I was fighting for a positive change then and I still am now.

 

The difference is its not as much of a buff now and borderlining on inconvenience.  If anything it should show you motives are pure instead of all the conspiracy theories you might buy into.

 

I believe most everyone would like to fly faster. (am I off the mark there?)

 

Unfortunately, that's not what these changes are about. If they were, simply increasing the speed and cap then walking away would suffice.

 

Instead we're gonna get a fix on top of a fix to fix the fix of the initial flawed change. Take the blinders off.