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A note on Rune of Protection changes


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We all know that Rune of Protection was nerfed because it's so OP that it was being abused in PvP.

 

Yes! I just said the words to summon Macskull! Incendio!   *POOF*

 

🤣

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17 minutes ago, Crasical said:

Yeah, I can understand this. 
I hated the lack of mez protection on my warshade.
"Just take Rune of Protection" was the end of the conversation.
He's not a wizard though, and I don't wanna.

I don't see how this change fixes your problem. Are you suggesting because it was nerfed, now additional attention will be given to mez protection options where they are lacking? I don't see why this would transpire as a result of runes nerf, nor why this couldn't happen while rune was stronger.

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11 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I don't see how this change fixes your problem. Are you suggesting because it was nerfed, now additional attention will be given to mez protection options where they are lacking? I don't see why this would transpire as a result of runes nerf, nor why this couldn't happen while rune was stronger.

 

Cant Warshades just use Dwarf as a Break Free?

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Here's a modest proposal that's not exactly about Rune of Protection, but certainly related.

 

What if we gave the epic resist armors each a mez protection component?  For example, Mind Over Body grants Confuse protection, Dark Embrace protects against fear, Charged Armor for sleeps, etc.  It lets players choose based on resistances AND mez, still leaves some mez to be covered by other powers, teammates, or inspirations, and makes losing uptime on Rune less painful

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Cant Warshades just use Dwarf as a Break Free?

 

Basically, though if we need to do something important like mire, eclipse or whatever, we still need mez resist.

 

I can tell you now though, that rune would be the last option on my list for a warshade.

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8 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I don't see how this change fixes your problem. Are you suggesting because it was nerfed, now additional attention will be given to mez protection options where they are lacking? I don't see why this would transpire as a result of runes nerf, nor why this couldn't happen while rune was stronger.

 

Essentially it's that I agree with Powerhouse:

  

4 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I know many of you will not agree, but RoP was an incredibly strong power, to the point where RoP it was often taken by players who disliked the Sorcery theme and didn’t even use the other powers in the set. Some even consider it to still be too strong even with the reduced duration.


It isn’t the main reason for the duration reduction, but “just take RoP” being part of the standard mez protection discussion was not an insignificant factor in this decision. Like most things, this is one that we wish had been done a lot earlier, but we’re a small team and can't get around to do everything on our list of goals at once. The primary reason this is being done now, is because we were working on the revamp.

 

I feel like the fact that people could say "Just take RoP" was a roadblock in the discussion. I mentioned that I was having trouble leveling my warshade, particularly mezzes knocking off my Inky Aspect, so that the minions would un-stun and beat me up. Aside from the warshade specific answers (Don't play Humanform or Squid/Human biform, get powerleveled to 50 so you can use Clarion), I got "Just take ROP".
For theme reasons, I didn't want to have giant flashy magical runes swirling around my alien hybrid. But that was where the mez protect was, so I got told 'Just take RoP'.

 

I don't think the primary source of Mez Protection as a pool power in the game should be in Sorcery, for theme reasons, for it being the only real source of it from a pool, for it requiring you to take some pretty 'meh' powers to get to.

So, in direct answer to your question: Yes, I think that the Runes nerf needed to happen otherwise it was going to sit there and block discussions about how characters should get mez resist, and how mez should even work in the game. I think that it's at least a start to a discussion about where to go from here, and it did require the Runes nerf to happen first.

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Whoever told you to 'just take RoP' as a warshade is someone you shouldn't be listening to for power advice ever.

 

Should we nerf kinetic melee, since someone on reddit told me it's not terrible?

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As I said, I got a lot of warshade-specific advice before we got down to 'Just take Rune of Protection, I guess'.
It was "the last option on the list for a warshade".

 


And this isn't a topic about warshades, so I'll try not to get off track.

But the problem was that it was the last argument: "There's mez protect in this power pool, go take that if you want it. We don't need to discuss if warshades need native mez protection or not, because this option exists."

Edited by Crasical
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4 minutes ago, Crasical said:

But the problem was that it was the last argument: "There's mez protect in this power pool, go take that if you want it. We don't need to discuss if warshades need native mez protection or not, because this option exists."

Not to point out the obvious, but doesn't Dwarf have mez protection? And can't you shapeshift while mezzed now?

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2 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

Not to point out the obvious, but doesn't Dwarf have mez protection? And can't you shapeshift while mezzed now?

 

Yep.  I just didn't want to turn into a space crab (and take the power, and re-toggle all my humanform armors, and slot all the crab attacks....) for when I got mezzed. Hence, the advice of 'don't play warshades as humanform or human/squid biform.'

Warshades are weird and not really the topic here. 

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5 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Like most things, this is one that we wish had been done a lot earlier, but we’re a small team and can't get around to do everything on our list of goals at once. The primary reason this is being done now, is because we were working on the revamp.

 

 

Hi! Sorry to derail this topic off of emotional discourse about a power that can be replaced with inspirations, but what's all this about a Revamp?

 

CPT Powerhouse, did you mean a revamp of Rune, a revamp of Sorcery, a revamp of all Origin Pools, or.. something else, like a revamp of Super Strength?

 

 

 

Edited by twozerofoxtrot
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5 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

All new Origin Pool T5s have been designed around 60s durations is entirely because of how strong RoP was - it wasn’t a mistake we wanted to see repeated. We were always planning to tone it down sooner or later.

I like the idea of 60 second durations on these powers, making them more active.

 

600 second base recharge : 60 second duration vs 90 second duration comparison below.

 

At 300 second recharge, uptime is 20% vs 30% (this is a base build, likely SOs or generic IOs only).

At 200 second recharge, uptime is 30% vs 45% (this is a mid-tier build, likely Hasten up most of time, with modest Set bonus for recharge).

At 170 second recharge, uptime is 35% vs 53% (this is a high recharge build, Hasten is perma or very near).

At 145 second recharge, uptime is 41% vs 62% (my time defender reaches this level of recharge, my Grav/Storm gets close with his multiple Force Feedback procs, without Ageless).

 

I think it is reasonable for this power to have uptimes below 50% in general. I also hate all powers with 10 minute recharge. Could it be considered to lower the base recharge on the power to 480 seconds with the 60s duration (and lower recharge on the other 600 second recharge powers this is being compared with)? I think the below uptimes make the power more usable for all players, while still reducing the overall uptime for higher end builds noticeably. It also allows for a slight buff to the other T5 pool powers. The extra time or two per mission the power can be used is also handy, while the shorter duration still allows the power to be more active. I also toyed with 500 or 510 seconds, which may be more appropriate, but I think the even 8 minutes was more elegant.

 

480 second base recharge with 60 second duration uptimes outlined below (using the same 4 recharge levels as above).

 

At 240 second recharge, uptime is 25% (down from 30%)

At 160 second recharge, uptime is 38% (down from 45%)

At 136 second recharge, uptime is 44% (down from 53%)

At 116 second recharge, uptime is 52% (down from 62%)

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3 minutes ago, Crasical said:

So, in direct answer to your question: Yes, I think that the Runes nerf needed to happen otherwise it was going to sit there and block discussions about how characters should get mez resist, and how mez should even work in the game. I think that it's at least a start to a discussion about where to go from here, and it did require the Runes nerf to happen first.

 

I (and I believe many of us) would quite readily discuss ways to create greater variety for mez resist/protection at any time, especially those that don't involve forced thematic choices, or give greater variety (less protection but perma?  some sort of mez "absorb" in an auto-refresh toggle?  I've heard some creative ideas).  I don't think we'd have been halted from that discussion by the mere existence of a halfway decent option buried in a pool, but with prereqs a warshade doesn't need, that has limited uptime, and stacks poorly with builds that can achieve high resist survival without it.  And while (as you accurately say) warshades aren't the topic here, this anecdote does illustrate why we should be discussing first, creating build diversity second, and nerfing last.  Which is kinda the whole point a lot of posters are trying to make, that is, we need more viable alternatives in making builds...not fewer.  Shouldn't it be ok to make a tougher but less damaging corruptor?  Or a fairly viable warshade that doesn't have to abandon a human theme against mez-heavy enemies? Or a controller that is...uh...not a pushover against controls, without a big bubble or a rather shabby and specific epic power choice?

 

All it would have taken was a dev post like "Hey, for the next update we're looking at mez system adjustments, describe examples when your characters are undertuned when facing mez" or "What other mez protection options should we consider, and where should we put them among the powersets", and suddenly we'd be eyebrow-deep in posts.

 

I argue that "simultaneously" would be superior to "first", even if you're right about the necessity.  Maybe that still has a chance of happening.  If anyone used an argument on you to shut down discussion of warshade native mez protection, well... I don't see how that translates into "great argument, I now support the nerf of PoR (or defense amplifiers) to force a debate".  For me, it translates into "that's a foolish argument, I'll look for advice from someone else, and the devs should start the debate as soon as they can spare time to adjust the mez system."

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1 hour ago, PirateCrew said:

 

Let's assume for a moment that we collectively treat this as the main logical argument behind whether RoP should be nerfed at all.  (I understand that some posters don't.)

Does this at least point to a reasonable path forward that most of us can support or be swayed to favor, including Jimmy, Powerhouse, and other devs who might not have chimed in yet? That is:

 

Preserve RoP as "overtuned" but "deserves to be, for now"... until some future discussion / readjustments to adjacent* powers?

*Not entirely sure how broad this should be.

 

The players have always accepted that we don't control the server's operation.  Our best arguments can only have effect here by swaying, or clarifying, dev ideas. 

Thus, I think the real question is, would the dev team accept that a one-sided RoP adjustment shouldn't occur until the broader intended change can be considered and bundled with it?

 

The current approach, which feels like instantly nerfing it in a vacuum, is really unsatisfying to me - both as a player, and as a human who just likes the world to contain more well-understood outcomes.  Tentative mentions of a broader plan are faintly better.  Why not go one step further?  If we (players) can accept that RoP contains an overconcentration of power within itself, pause the nerf while that excess is spread around, and maybe also consider adjusting competitor powers/sets - sounds far better IMO than the path we've been set on.

 

This is a wonderful post. 

 

It does seem odd to simultaneously admit the Sorcery Pool is not very popular but also argue that it needs to be even less popular for balance reasons.  Also odd to simultaneously state RoP is being nerfed because it is too powerful as a single power while acknowledging that the power is indeed gated behind two other under-performing powers.  The difficulty arises in how to deal with a power that is too good but that is also forcibly wrapped up in a group of powers that are not very good.

 

I would be very much in favor of delaying the nerf on RoP until the whole Sorcery pool can be re-worked.  With the understanding that far too much of the value of the Sorcery Pool is now concentrated in this one power.  Just speaking for myself - I would be fine with a substantial and guaranteed future nerf to RoP if the rest of the Sorcery Pool was made more useful, powerful and interesting. 

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25 minutes ago, scottocamp said:

 

This is a wonderful post. 

 

It does seem odd to simultaneously admit the Sorcery Pool is not very popular but also argue that it needs to be even less popular for balance reasons.  Also odd to simultaneously state RoP is being nerfed because it is too powerful as a single power while acknowledging that the power is indeed gated behind two other under-performing powers.  The difficulty arises in how to deal with a power that is too good but that is also forcibly wrapped up in a group of powers that are not very good.

 

I would be very much in favor of delaying the nerf on RoP until the whole Sorcery pool can be re-worked.  With the understanding that far too much of the value of the Sorcery Pool is now concentrated in this one power.  Just speaking for myself - I would be fine with a substantial and guaranteed future nerf to RoP if the rest of the Sorcery Pool was made more useful, powerful and interesting. 

 

There's lots of interesting avenues left to take for the pools.  Heck the whole thing about hasten being a necessity got me thinking that we still have a few Origin pools left to introduce.  It'd be neat if say the Gadget pool one of the first powers you could select would be a nano tech like self buff exactly like hasten but where with hasten you get 70% recharge on this nano power it'd net you 45-50% recharge but also a 10% resist all buff for the same duration hasten would be, then these two powers would be locked out from getting the other.  That way you'd have a heck of a start to an interesting new origin pool then the t5 power doesn't need to be as strong as the other ones but the pool as a whole is equally great and offers an alternative to the speed pool.   

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1 hour ago, StratoNexus said:

I like the idea of 60 second durations on these powers, making them more active.

 

600 second base recharge : 60 second duration vs 90 second duration comparison below.

 

At 300 second recharge, uptime is 20% vs 30% (this is a base build, likely SOs or generic IOs only).

At 200 second recharge, uptime is 30% vs 45% (this is a mid-tier build, likely Hasten up most of time, with modest Set bonus for recharge).

At 170 second recharge, uptime is 35% vs 53% (this is a high recharge build, Hasten is perma or very near).

At 145 second recharge, uptime is 41% vs 62% (my time defender reaches this level of recharge, my Grav/Storm gets close with his multiple Force Feedback procs, without Ageless).

 

I think it is reasonable for this power to have uptimes below 50% in general. I also hate all powers with 10 minute recharge. Could it be considered to lower the base recharge on the power to 480 seconds with the 60s duration (and lower recharge on the other 600 second recharge powers this is being compared with)? I think the below uptimes make the power more usable for all players, while still reducing the overall uptime for higher end builds noticeably. It also allows for a slight buff to the other T5 pool powers. The extra time or two per mission the power can be used is also handy, while the shorter duration still allows the power to be more active. I also toyed with 500 or 510 seconds, which may be more appropriate, but I think the even 8 minutes was more elegant.

 

480 second base recharge with 60 second duration uptimes outlined below (using the same 4 recharge levels as above).

 

At 240 second recharge, uptime is 25% (down from 30%)

At 160 second recharge, uptime is 38% (down from 45%)

At 136 second recharge, uptime is 44% (down from 53%)

At 116 second recharge, uptime is 52% (down from 62%)

 

The reason for 600s recharge is because that makes the minimum recharge possible 120s. This is by design, because it means the power can never have an uptime greater than 50% at the recharge cap.

 

If you make the recharge 480, the minimum recharge possible becomes 96s. So the duration of Rune would have to be changed from 60s to 48s to maintain 50% uptime at the recharge cap.

 

Judging by the outcry of Rune going from 90s to 60s. I don't think reducing it further to 48s is a good idea.

 

(Also worth pointing out. On live, Rune currently has an uptime of 75% at the recharge cap. That is insanely overpowered and likely the reason for the nerf. If rune were to keep its 90s duration on live, the recharge would need to be increased to 900s.)

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2 hours ago, America's Angel said:

(Also worth pointing out. On live, Rune currently has an uptime of 75% at the recharge cap. That is insanely overpowered and likely the reason for the nerf. If rune were to keep its 90s duration on live, the recharge would need to be increased to 900s.)


Most powers have an uptime of 100% well before approaching the recharge cap, and many of those are significantly more impactful (and far more prolific) than RoP. I don't want to say Hasten, but, uh, Hasten.

This perception of certain things being insanely overpowered relative to other, similar powers remains dismissive of the cases where this power is actually used. RoP has close to zero appeal to any archetype that has access to consistent mez protection, and that's most of them. For the handful that remain, it's a crutch often used to facilitate more comfortable gameplay in an environment that is extremely hostile to any character without the bare minimum protection. Soloing most +4/x8 content, you'll quickly realize that the average defense build is nowhere near enough for what the game throws at you. Cycling powers like RoP, hybrid melee, etc. and hopefully a decent amount of regen going on in the background is what makes it comfortable for squishier archetypes. This brings parity with the ones who have native access to that level of survivability, and it already comes at a cost, especially when you consider the enormous differences between survivability across the archetypes vs. their average damage output.

It's a problem that nobody really talks about, but most of the building that goes on in this game has to do with defense, resistance, protection and recharge breakpoints. You can have too much of any given thing. Tankers, for example, start with an enormous advantage in some cases to both defense and resistance, and always have protection against anything that matters. Blasters on the other hand have nothing, and they barely even have an advantage damage-wise to make up for it. When you start factoring in things like how much easier it is to slot procs on a tanker build, the existence of Fiery Aura, and permanent Soul Drain, it seems almost like an insult that tankers also have over twice the max HP cap.

And that makes sense: they're tankers! They should be survivable. They should be able to do damage too, because otherwise they'd be boring, and we all remember how that was. But then why can't the reverse also be true, if you choose to build for it?

The overwhelming sentiment towards building things in this game is that buffs should, in a high recharge build, be permanent. Does anyone else remember the original Dark Affinity changes? Both Fade and Soul Absorption were initially slated to have recharges that would have made it impossible to maintain them permanently. That was quickly changed for all the reasons they should have been, because when it comes to survivability and endurance-related buffs, permanency is quality of life in this game. Nobody wants to cycle inspirations, and even doing the RoP - hybrid shenanigans is tiresome enough. This change only makes things that much worse, while blatantly ignoring the fact that the majority of archetypes have no actual use for a power that some seem to consider overtuned. Thus, an overtuned power is being used almost exclusively by archetypes seeking to gain parity with the others, and in so doing they've already paid a price and are still worse off in the end.

That underlying problem should at the very least be addressed here.

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6 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

We all know that Rune of Protection was nerfed because it's so OP that it was being abused in PvP.


Ok, I had “Rune of Protection was nerfed because of PvP” in the pool. Pay up, guys.

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5 hours ago, ScarySai said:

 

Should we nerf kinetic melee, since someone on reddit told me it's not terrible?


Nerf it into what, all brawl-level attacks?

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8 hours ago, Jimmy said:

A power doesn't need to be highly picked in order for it to be deemed as overperforming. I explain this clearly in my post: A single power should not be able to bridge a gap that results in entire parts of the game being obviated. Again, as covered in my post, mez in general is a systems-level discussion. Not something to be determined or solved by a single power.

 

Jimmy do you mean pool powers or any power?

 

Scorpion Shield seems to fit "A single power should not be able to bridge a gap that results in entire parts of the game being obviated"

 

Are all these type powers on the chopping block? What about Incarnates? Specific IOs? Proc'd out epics?

 

It would be fair to give folks a heads up.

 

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9 hours ago, Jimmy said:


A power doesn't need to be highly picked in order for it to be deemed as overperforming. I explain this clearly in my post: A single power should not be able to bridge a gap that results in entire parts of the game being obviated. Again, as covered in my post, mez in general is a systems-level discussion. Not something to be determined or solved by a single power.

 

Can you explain to me please how RoP, as it is on live, is a single power that obviates entire parts of the game when it is not perma and can't get anywhere close to perma without insane amounts of global +recharge most builds can't get anywhere close to? Now scrapper/brute/tanker/stalker mez protections, those do obviate entire parts of the game in single power picks.

 

As I said in the thread that was locked:

"Personally I absolutely loathe long recharge short duration situational powers. I don't use them in tricky situations in case I hit a really really tricky situation where I'd need it but it's on recharge. So I find workarounds for the tricky situations, and then when those really really tricky situations do arise I don't even think about those powers, as I'm used to the workarounds instead.

 

That is where RoP is heading with the reduced duration for me, at best it'll probably end up as being nothing more than a mule for res +def IOs on alts I can't squeeze both a travel power and the fighting pool into, at worst the entire pool gets skipped completely by the vast majority of my alts."

 

As it is on live I don't always take the sorcery pool, even on my squishies, but I did on some. The chances of me taking it on new alts when this goes live is extremely remote. Making an entire power pool (or should I say "another" entire power pool?) undesireable is all that's going to come of this. But I have accepted that's what's going to happen as the decision has already been made and isn't going to be changed, so I'll move on, albeit with even more homogenised builds.

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2 hours ago, BRADICAL said:


Most powers have an uptime of 100% well before approaching the recharge cap, and many of those are significantly more impactful (and far more prolific) than RoP. I don't want to say Hasten, but, uh, Hasten.

This perception of certain things being insanely overpowered relative to other, similar powers remains dismissive of the cases where this power is actually used. RoP has close to zero appeal to any archetype that has access to consistent mez protection, and that's most of them. For the handful that remain, it's a crutch often used to facilitate more comfortable gameplay in an environment that is extremely hostile to any character without the bare minimum protection. Soloing most +4/x8 content, you'll quickly realize that the average defense build is nowhere near enough for what the game throws at you. Cycling powers like RoP, hybrid melee, etc. and hopefully a decent amount of regen going on in the background is what makes it comfortable for squishier archetypes. This brings parity with the ones who have native access to that level of survivability, and it already comes at a cost, especially when you consider the enormous differences between survivability across the archetypes vs. their average damage output.

It's a problem that nobody really talks about, but most of the building that goes on in this game has to do with defense, resistance, protection and recharge breakpoints. You can have too much of any given thing. Tankers, for example, start with an enormous advantage in some cases to both defense and resistance, and always have protection against anything that matters. Blasters on the other hand have nothing, and they barely even have an advantage damage-wise to make up for it. When you start factoring in things like how much easier it is to slot procs on a tanker build, the existence of Fiery Aura, and permanent Soul Drain, it seems almost like an insult that tankers also have over twice the max HP cap.

And that makes sense: they're tankers! They should be survivable. They should be able to do damage too, because otherwise they'd be boring, and we all remember how that was. But then why can't the reverse also be true, if you choose to build for it?

The overwhelming sentiment towards building things in this game is that buffs should, in a high recharge build, be permanent. Does anyone else remember the original Dark Affinity changes? Both Fade and Soul Absorption were initially slated to have recharges that would have made it impossible to maintain them permanently. That was quickly changed for all the reasons they should have been, because when it comes to survivability and endurance-related buffs, permanency is quality of life in this game. Nobody wants to cycle inspirations, and even doing the RoP - hybrid shenanigans is tiresome enough. This change only makes things that much worse, while blatantly ignoring the fact that the majority of archetypes have no actual use for a power that some seem to consider overtuned. Thus, an overtuned power is being used almost exclusively by archetypes seeking to gain parity with the others, and in so doing they've already paid a price and are still worse off in the end.

That underlying problem should at the very least be addressed here.

This is true. 
Sometimes it feels like a two tier game; melee ATs where the bulk of the powerful players play, and the non melee ATs who exist to be vulnerable and make the others look good! 😆

 

Maybe the real question is why do some ATs have to jump through such hoops to get even basic protections. 
Also mezz protection is far too binary in this game. You are either immune or dead meat.

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1 hour ago, Peacemoon said:

This is true. 
Sometimes it feels like a two tier game; melee ATs where the bulk of the powerful players play, and the non melee ATs who exist to be vulnerable and make the others look good! 😆

 

Maybe the real question is why do some ATs have to jump through such hoops to get even basic protections. 
Also mezz protection is far too binary in this game. You are either immune or dead meat.

heroes and sidekicks also basic mez protection is rather simple defense amplifier 20mil per 8h is the cost to play a sidekick so you can make a hero look good

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14 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I think we all know that the entire binary mez system is this game sucks, but that's something the original developers should have fixed 17 years ago, not something that the current Homecoming developers can really address and still call this game City of Heroes.

 

I agree, a proper solution to the problems with Mez are complex.

 

But in another post, I actually thought of a hack that could fix Mez, albeit not as good as a complete redesign but in a minimally disruptive way.  The way it was fixed for one AT: Blasters.  Allowing them to use their Primary T1 and T2 and Secondary T1 attacks even while Mezzed.  And the ATO Enhancement set Defiant Barrage including a special proc that builds up a Mez protection shield.  This way Mez doesn't take away all of Blasters' agency and they can react and burn their way out of it.

 

On 3/24/2021 at 4:56 PM, Jacke said:

...how about taking the solution for Blasters and give it to all squishy ATs: T1 and T2 Blasts on Defenders, Corruptors, Controllers, and Dominators can be used despite Mez and give them an ATO Enhancement that builds a Mez shield allowing them to burn their way out of Mez when it stops them cold.  Instead of just having to suck it up and die.

 

The problem is Mez.  Players want a better solution than paying up to 2.5 million Inf/hour for Defensive Amplifiers.  Nerfing Rune duration weakens one of the main Mez mitigation tools.

 

Fixing the issues with Mez even partly will be hard.  But that's an area that should be addressed sooner rather than later.

 

Copying the fix for Blasters to other ATs isn't the best solution for Mez, but it is a minimum modification solution that's already implemented for Blasters and working.  It would need adjustment, but it could be made to work without radically breaking the existing game.

 

And fixing Mez has to be at or near the top of a lot players' personal City Fixes Wishlists.  So how about it?

Edited by Jacke
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