Move some of the PvP mini games to RV - Buff/Debuff

[Troo]

Siren's Call doesn't see much action these days with the skip to 50 meta, so maybe it would be fun to move some aspects to RV.

(not to be confused with the topic: Add Battle for Recluse's Victory to RV)

 

Buff / Debuff Mini Game

The following temporary powers may affect your character while outdoors in zone. Completing missions will either raise you and your allies' powers or lower the enemies' powers. Players inside door missions in the zone are not affected by these powers. Each of these powers has a 1% strength but can stack up to fifteen times.

• Impassioned +Damage (All Damage)
  • You have been impassioned by the work of your fellow adventurers. Your attacks now deal more damage.
• Galvanized +Resistance (All Damage)
  • You have been galvanized by the work of your fellow adventurers. You now have increased damage resistance.
• Enfeebled -Damage (All Damage)
  • You have been enfeebled by the acts of your enemies. Your attacks now deal less damage.
• Staggered -Resistance (All Damage)
  • You have been staggered by the acts of your enemies. You now suffer decreased damage resistance.

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Troo
trying to differetiate 2 seperate items

[America's Angel]

This would not be desirable to PVP players.

[Greycat]

That's not really a Siren's Call mechanic. Siren's Call is about bounty and fighting in the ... stand around and stare at the other side until someone suddenly attacks for some reason (er, zone battles) mechanic. The missions you describe are part of every *other* PVP zone except RV.

 

Siren's Call's draw - for me, at least, pre... multiple changes - was that everyone was closer in range (being the 20-30 zone, versus the very wide in terms of ability 15-25 of BB, and the non-alignment specific T9fest of Warburg... pre "5 extra levels of power when exemped" tweak to exemping. Siren's was the zone I was in the most, and had the most fun in. The zone missions you describe were "an aspect of the zone," yes, but as unique to it as having NPCs in the zone as well.

 

And no, I don't think it would help RV. RV's already "the most popular" PVP zone, since everyone's at 50. And for those of us not on "the PVP server," adding that mechanic frankly wouldn't do much (and would probably lead to annoyance, since if it's anything like SC's bounty, you could lose its "temporal points" by running a mission if you realize you're fighting at a disadvantage.)

 

Honestly, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish with the suggestion. You admit in the first post that RV's already the most popular zone, so... you want to move (I'm *assuming* you don't mean "remove from one and move to another" despite saying "move") a mechanic from a zone that's not as popular any more there? Since part of the premise seems to focus on Siren's not being as popular, why not try to find a draw *for* Siren's, instead? Lord knows it needs help - the bounty and zone control aren't worth fighting for, the bounty's lost when going into door missions, and the "zone fights" between NPCs are slow and uninteresting, with the two sides basically staring at each other for 10-15 minutes before something triggers an attack.

[Monos King]

Yeah angel doesn't speak for all PvPers, mostly arena types. I in particular like having dynamic elements to spice up the scene in certain places. But both your suggestions have been strong misses so far, they just don't make sense. 

[Zeraphia]

I can solidly respect the attempt and intentions with this post. That said, I don't think this is the way to go.  I think adding some of these concepts and minigames in another zone could be unique or fun though even in PvE.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Zeraphia said:

I think adding some of these concepts and minigames in another zone could be unique or fun though even in PvE.

 

The Buff/Debuff to players doesn't really work for a PvE zone but some of the other mini games or similar could work.

 

@Monos King I'm not particularly invested in these. If there is something similar that could spice up zone play I think it would be worth discussing. I look forward to your suggestions.

[Steampunkette]

How about, instead, we create some -new- games for Recluse's Victory?

 

We've got the Pillboxes as a thing. What if we also do a Capture the Flag function?

 

Place an interactable object in a couple of places on the map. Create an "Event" which lists points scored by Heroes and Villains.

 

Clicking the interactable object makes you show up on the "Other Side's" map and minimap as a target, like the Bounty System.

 

You gain 0 bonuses to your abilities or character while the game is in play, and you gain a very bright, clear, and most importantly -large- aura that makes it easy for enemies to spot you from a distance.

 

You have to race across the zone without being killed to try and get the "Flag" over to the second interactable object. Your side gets a Point if you manage to finish the interaction with the object.

 

Success grants you a Temporary Power that allows you to glow as if you have the "Flag" for up to 10 minutes as a 0-End Cost Toggle with a per-use timer. And also grants you a buff that lasts up to 1 hour so long as you remain in the zone which stacks with itself and dissipates after 1 hour (Unless it is removed before then)

 

After 1 hour, or one side reaches 10 points, the game ends.

 

If your side gains 10 points, all characters on "Your Side" in the zone gain 5 Reward Merits. Anyone who has the "Point Scored" power gets an additional 3 Reward Merits, up to a Maximum of 10 stacks for 35 total Reward Merits.

 

Players on the "Losing Side" can thus earn up to 27 merits for participating by scoring up to 9 flags before the "Winning Side" gets the 10th flag.

[Troo]

@Steampunkette Thank you. These are the things we could be exploring!

[America's Angel]

22 hours ago, Monos King said:

Yeah angel doesn't speak for all PvPers, mostly arena types. I in particular like having dynamic elements to spice up the scene in certain places. But both your suggestions have been strong misses so far, they just don't make sense. 

I play zone as much as anyone else. I'm not purely arena-focused.

 

And 0% of PVPers have liked this idea so far. So, my first post seems accurate.

Edited April 10, 2021 by America's Angel

[Greycat]

Other than indom, I'd kind of see that "capture the flag" bit as a fast merit farm TBH. I can't think of the last time I actually ran across an enemy player in RV on Everlasting, even with going through a full from-nothing pillbox capture. Run from one side to the other ten times for 35 merits? Sure! If there's no cooldown (or even a short one - where I'd just do pillbox captures and get my pet,) I'd be fairly merit-rich in next to no time.

 

Honestly, I don't think RV *needs* much, if anything, added. It's got the main "zone game" of trying to control the zone before inversion, which awards points *and* gives decided areas to focus fighting on, it's got the heavies (again, a focal point for fighting, as well as for those interested in snagging badges,) it's got AV fights once a certain number of pillboxes are taken over. Plus, as mentioned, it *is* the zone where people get to fight at full power (which, itself, is probably a big part of the popularity.) Much more just starts getting more complicated and unfocused.

[Troo]

3 hours ago, America's Angel said:

I play zone as much as anyone else. I'm not purely arena-focused.

 

And 0% of PVPers have liked this idea so far. So, my first post seems accurate.

 

I am a PvPer. Your absolute statement has and will remain inaccurate.

[Glacier Peak]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

I am a PvPer. Your absolute statement has and will remain inaccurate.

You made the suggestion though, is that fair to count yourself? If your soliciting feedback from others on your suggestion, it would make sense not to include yourself in that calculation.

[Troo]

15 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Troo, you do PVE content in PVP zones by yourself.

 

Actually I have participated in a couple of your events.

 

14 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

You made the suggestion though, is that fair to count yourself? If your soliciting feedback from others on your suggestion, it would make sense not to include yourself in that calculation.

 

Yes, but you also don't see legions supporting her absurd absolute statement while she tries to disparage me.

 

I have no doubt she could muster 8-9 who are adversarial to me already,. and yet.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by Troo
consolidating

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, Troo said:

Yes, but you also don't see legions supporting her absurd absolute statement. While she tries to disparage me.

Fair enough. Anyways, anything that brings more folks in to PvP zones sounds good to me.

[Greycat]

30 minutes ago, Troo said:

Yes, but you also don't see legions supporting her absurd absolute statement while she tries to disparage me.

 

I have no doubt she could muster 8-9 who are adversarial to me already,. and yet.

 

Well, given you started out being hostile/disparaging to AA...

On 4/8/2021 at 11:42 PM, Troo said:

feel free to have the legions of PvPers you control/speak for come share their thoughts.

... can't exactly be read neutrally, after all. It honestly sounds like you have a preexisting beef there.

 

 And yes, there are some people I *do* expect to be able to accurately speak for a larger part of a section of the playerbase or a sort of playstyle. AA or macskull for PVP, for instance, or Veracor for raids/raid management/etc. Does it mean their statements should shut down discussion? No. But it also doesn't mean their general statements about a community should be dismissed as "absurd" statements. These are the people I see *running* events and being leaders in some section of the community - and thus expect that, yes, they do have a feel for how that community in general would react.

 

Regardless -

 

50 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

 Anyways, anything that brings more folks in to PvP zones sounds good to me.

 

... I'd have to wonder if *any* amount of tweaking would really bring a noticable amount of people into the PVP zones past what happens now. The PVP community was larger pre-i13 changes, it cratered after that and as far as zones never really recovered. BB, Siren's and (to some extent) Warburg have just coasted along. Here, I think I've seen someone besides me in the zones... *maybe* three times, and one of those is a guess. One was someone AFK in the middle of a bunch of drones, and one person vanished within a minute of me showing up. (The third time would be a rescue of someone stuck in geometry, come to think of it.) That's it, and I do go in with some regularity.

 

The COH community in general, despite announcements and plans for incorporating it going back before release, has never had a huge interest in PVP (and some segments have been actively hostile.) Honestly, most of the "PVP" I've seen has been RPvP, with players describing and working out actions against each other. No odd mechanics to figure out or re-learning or reslotting needed, no zone restrictions... closer to tabletop, if anything.  I don't know if there really *are* any tweaks or mechanics reworks that would really create a sudden, sustainable influx of proto-PVPers to the zones.

[Glacier Peak]

Yeah that's a challenge @Greycat. But Homecoming staff have been pretty receptive to inputs from the collective PvP community. Heck they added new arena maps last issue - that alone created tremendous replayability for a least one segment of folks who play this game. 

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Yeah that's a challenge @Greycat. But Homecoming staff have been pretty receptive to inputs from the collective PvP community. Heck they added new arena maps last issue - that alone created tremendous replayability for a least one segment of folks who play this game. 

 

But did it bring *more* in, even out of curiosity?

 

Mind you, I'm not saying that was a waste of time - every segment of this community deserves attention, including new shinies (including maps.) I think it's as worthy of time as new costume pieces, new story arcs or anything else. But if the whole point is to draw more people into the PVP community and maps - preferrably to *want to PVP,* versus just get a new badge or something... well, I don't have the answer, honestly. We're not a FPS where a gun can be balanced against another gun. We can't even "balance" within an AT because the potential powerset pairings are so widely different.  A fire/kin is vastly different to an earth/ff, even if they're both controllers.

 

Honestly, the only balance "answer" I have is what I was saying even way back on live. "The ATs aren't balanced one on one. Balance means 'bring a team.'"

 

(The most "balanced" fight I'd ever had was my ma/regen Stalker against a ma/regen Scrapper. It was amusing. We called it a draw after 15 minutes... we just couldn't kill each other.)

[Wavicle]

On 4/8/2021 at 7:28 PM, Troo said:

the skip to 50 meta

Side issue:

 

This is NOT the "meta". This is just how some people choose to play the game.

[Troo]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Side issue:

 

This is NOT the "meta". This is just how some people choose to play the game.

 

How many PvPers are in Bloody Bay, Sirens Call or Warburg?

Are many of those participating regularly PvP using sub 50 builds with limited slotting?

It appears, unfortunately, it is by definition the meta. (an abstract, high-level analysis or commentary)

 

If you have something of value to add to this topic. I'd love to hear it?

• Are you against encouraging more participation?
• Are you against trying to add to the game?
• Are you against proliferating existing functionality to where people play?

[Wavicle]

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "side issue". But I guess you meant this is the meta STRICTLY for PvPers, in which case maybe you're right, I don't know.

 

I don't think any of your suggestions are at all likely to encourage more participation. Certainly for ME, someone who plays PvE and NOT PvP, these suggestions would do nothing to get me into the PvP zones, RV or otherwise.

[Greycat]

5 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

How many PvPers are in Bloody Bay, Sirens Call or Warburg?

Are many of those participating regularly PvP using sub 50 builds with limited slotting?

 

 

*raises hand to both of those* I go in there "organically" as I level, as well as after passing max level. Though I suppose I'm just a "Pv" since I essentially never see another "p" in there.

 

Just as a data point.

[Greycat]

41 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

How so? Pointing out that no one person speaks for everyone and as you said "should shut down discussion".

 

 

Explained in the post you're quoting. The way you phrased it was out-of-the-blue hostile. (Thus my comment "it sounds like you have a beef there.")

 

Also, whether she phrased it like she was speaking for *all* PVPers... eh, debatable. I read it as general, you read it as absolute, from the sound of it. That's purely a subjective, personal read, and I get where you're coming from (I'll tend to counterexample when someone *does* blatantly do that if I feel the point is needed, IE "Nobody goes into Echo:DA for anything but badges or adamastor," I'd react to with "actually I have characters who have a good bit of backstory there and do spend time..." )

 

 

41 minutes ago, Troo said:

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Siren's_Call

 

 

Also explained directly in the post you're quoting, in the section you cut out. As I said - and even highlighted - it was a mechanic in *every PVP zone except RV.* The way you portrayed it was a Siren's specific mechanic that was one of the reasons the zone was popular, which is incorrect.

 

At this point, you're being somewhat dishonest, (Edit: Wavicle suggested 'disingenuous,' which kind of fits what I was looking for. And is less hostile sounding.)  and I know you're better than that, man.  ("Dishonest" isn't really the word... it's escaping me. I don't think you're doing it out of malice, but you're not giving the whole picture there, y'know?)

Edited April 10, 2021 by Greycat

[Greycat]

7 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

Ya it was just the PvP scene. I'll see if I can clean that up to be more clear.

 

Is there anything?

 

Have you every done gladiator matches? What do you think of those?

 

The was an idea of a PvP zone where we couldn't attack other players but could interact with NPCs to manipulate the outcome of a large battle(s).

 

 

 

More data points, though the question wasn't shot my way :) 

 

Honestly, I seem to remember gladiator matches being removed, or talked about being removed, at some point. Personally, I thought those were hilarious, but lost interest after a while.  (I don't remember if some of the arena kiosk issues on live were part of why - "too much hassle" if not done right or not. It's been a long time.)

 

Hadn't heard of the other idea, but it sounds sort of like a stripped down one I'd heard elsewhere where actions or missions affect control of a zone, mission availability inside... sort of "pvevp" I suppose. Which might be interesting, or frustrating.

 

One of the things I think I'd see as an arena option is similar to something mentioned as a difficulty option elsewhere in suggestions - disabling IO set bonuses. Primarily because I had more fun (and I think the zones were more accessible) pre-IOs, where we could do things like have a PUG of three hold a zone until the odds from the other side were just overwhelming. One of the complaints sometimes leveled - and not just at PVP but at builds in general - are the "multibillion inf builds" some people think are needed. No, it won't even the odds for someone new or casual vs. a hardcore, PVPs several times a week player, and there are still AT differences (and quite a bit more,) but it would address accessibility. (I don't think it'd go over all that well, but still.)

[Troo]

4 hours ago, Greycat said:

At this point, you're being somewhat dishonest, and I know you're better than that, man.

 

I'm out. I'm busy, and this feels derailed. There were some good points and are appreciated. I'll clean up my back-n-forth and give this topic a try another day.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by Troo

[Greycat]

7 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

 

You may not like or agree with my replies but to call them dishonest is a stretch.

 

I'm out. I'm busy, and this feels derailed. There were some good points and are appreciated. I'll give this topic a try another day.

 

 

 

As I explained in an edit better than 10 minutes before you replied - dishonest wasn't the word I was looking for. I also stated in that I didn't think you were doing that out of malice. And nothing I've said here has been dishonest, so...