Armour T9s

[America's Angel]

Okay so there's been some talk recently about tweaking the T9 Armour powers (Specifically: Unstoppable, Power Surge, Elude, Overload, Kuji-in Retsu).

 

As one of the few people who actually uses these powers, I thought it time to make a thread on it. But first, a brief primer on the state of play:

 

T9s in PVE: Useless
T9s in PVP: Essential

 

Because of this, reimagining T9s will damage Invulnerability, Elec Armour, Super Reflexes, Energy Aura, and Ninjitsu in PVP. And while PVP is always secondary to PVE, ruining a bunch of sets in PVP for a change that isn't really needed in PVE would be a terrible decision. So, let's try and avoid that as we put our heads together with PVE ideas. (It doesn't have to be our focus, but there's no reason it can't be a consideration.)

 

So...how to make T9s useful in PVE?

 

First of, fix the obvious downsides:

• Remove the 20s recovery debuff in Elude(!) Overload, Retsu, and Power Surge
• Remove or reduce the -HP in the Unstoppable and Power Surge crash
• Remove or reduce the -end in the crash of all T9s.
• (Fix the "psy hole" they all have in PVP! Psy Melee players shouldn't have this weird advantage!)

 

Okay. That has fixed the bad parts of the powers. And it has improved their PVP performance, too. (Woop!) If this is all that is changed, this would be a net positive for the game. Similar to how blaster nukes were improved back in the day.

 

(This is all that "needs" doing IMO. Everything beyond this is just meddling. But for the sake of discussion, let us continue.)

 

Okay so even though the downsides have been removed... why would my PVE invuln tank use unstoppable? This is what her (incarnate-less) stats look like:

 

If we're looking to improve PVE...then I need a reason to want the power in PVE. And yeah sure you could say it'd make the game easier levelling 1-50, but there's no real need for it there, either.  Invuln plays fine in regular SO content. (And while some of the other sets might not be so hot in regular SO content, that speaks more to the sets as a whole, rather than their T9s. Super Reflexes, for example, does not underperform due to Elude being undesirable.)

 

So, what to do?

 

Maybe take a step back and change how we look at this? T9s obviously cannot be ADDITIVE. We can't use them on top of our existing builds. But what if they existed as an equally-viable ALTERNATIVE to our current builds?  (I.e. You pick powers, or make a build, based around the T9. And in doing so, achieve the same level of relative performance as you would currently without them.) This would be an ideal solution, as it would give players more building options, and lead to less homogenization at level 50.

 

To do this, I'd take a leaf out of the recent Rune of Protection tweaks. That power now has:
 

Rune of Protection: 60s Duration @ 180s unenhanceable recharge for an uptime of 33%.

 

Now, that's a pool power everyone has access to. For an armour T9, the cornerstone power of each set, we should look for a higher number. Maybe...66%%?

 

As the current 180s duration of the T9s are good/what the playerbase is used to since 2004, then I'd suggest...

 

Unstoppable: 180s Duration @ 270s unenhanceable recharge for an uptime of 66%.
Power Surge: 180s Duration @ 270s unenhanceable recharge for an uptime of 66%.
Elude: 180s Duration @ 270s unenhanceable recharge for an uptime of 66%.
Overload: 180s Duration @ 270s unenhanceable recharge for an uptime of 66%.
Kuji-in Retsu: 180s Duration @ 270s unenhanceable recharge for an uptime of 66%.

 

3 minutes on, 1.5 minutes off. (Still affected by Burnout, obviously.)

 

This would allow PVE players to "hulk out" when they need to, and use their other tools (heals, origin T5s, Unrelenting, insps, etc) to survive in the 90s off. It would also allow PVE players to have an abundance of defense or resistance in those rare instances where they need it, as well as have a means to a +recovery buff for tough boss/AV fights.

 

Even with these changes, players wouldn't have to use T9s. (They could still build for the softcap.) But cycling a tweaked T9 with a small downtime window would likely make your tank/brute/scrapper/stalker "tough enough" to tank all content in the game. So, with less slots needed to be "tough enough", you free up slots in a build to build for other things. Hell, it might help remove the need to take the power pools we always end up taking (Looking at you Fighting), and let us fit these cool origin powers into our PVE builds. (Looking at you Gadgets and Utility Belt.)

 

There's a few objections I can already see forming to this...

 

"You keep talking about builds! This game is balanced around SOs!"

 

True, but this is a buff to SO builds, too! Casual players will be able to tank well without having to rely on inspirations so much. Also, thanks to the +recovery each T9 offers, it will also give casual players a way to help mitigate some of the end drain found in the 38+ content. (Something they typically struggle with.)

 

"This would be OP with incarnates!"

I think you have that the wrong way around. Incarnates make everything OP. Incarnates should not be considered when talking about game balance. (Except alpha, maybe.)

 

"Insps would make this OP."

Again, you got that the wrong way around. Insps (purple ones especially) are insanely OP right now.

 

"What about Shield? It's T9 only has an uptime of 33%"

 

Maybe shield should get some love, too. But One With The Shield has a different duration/recharge to the other T9s listed, so that's a potentially separate conversation.

 

"Wouldn't this make the sets OP in PVP?"

 

Invuln & Elec - No. You can still kill through the T9s. This would just make them more viable options for fights that last longer than 6 minutes.
EA, SR, Ninjitsu - Not on Scrappers. Possibly on Brutes/Tanks. Would need to test. It may turn out the downtime window needs to be longer than 90s. This is only something we'd learn in testing.

If paired with Dark Melee/Rad Melee? Quite possibly. But that speaks more to Dark Melee / Rad Melee than the T9s. If testing shows these two attack sets are providing too much mitigation, despite requiring a tohitcheck for their heals, then that's something that can be looked at separately to T9s. There's no reason an EM/EA should suffer because a DM/EA is really survivable.

 

"Wouldn't it be cool if [insert idea to completely revamp the T9s]"

 

Thunderspy is that way --->

 

Let me know what y'all think. I'm not married to the 66% uptime number. Was just to illustrate the idea more than anything.

Edited April 12, 2021 by America's Angel

[Outrider_01]

16 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

• Remove the 20s recovery debuff in Elude(!) Overload, Retsu, and Power Surge
• Remove or reduce the -HP in the Unstoppable and Power Surge crash
• Remove or reduce the -end in the crash of all T9s.
• (Fix the "psy hole" they all have in PVP! Psy Melee players shouldn't have this weird advantage!)

just going to tl;dr my opinon - Ice Armor on Scrapper/Stalker.  Icy Bastion is 5 min recharge, 30 sec duration.  Use it as a basis for the other T9, adjust for 60 duration and longer if need be.  Some of the crashes are because the duration is like 3 mins long, so you go from Wimpy "Burger next Tuesday" to "Popeye the Sailor" for 60 seconds and could be Brutus after it wears off during a fight.  

[America's Angel]

3 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

just going to tl;dr my opinon - Ice Armor on Scrapper/Stalker.  Icy Bastion is 5 min recharge, 30 sec duration.  Use it as a basis for the other T9, adjust for 60 duration and longer if need be.  Some of the crashes are because the duration is like 3 mins long, so you go from Wimpy "Burger next Tuesday" to "Popeye the Sailor" for 60 seconds and could be Brutus after it wears off during a fight.  

Please don't suggest nerfs. 

[Steampunkette]

I don't think "Buff the t9s to the point that you don't need the rest of your eight tiers of powers for 66% of playtime and they are all essentially homogenous complete protection" is any more reasonable a direction to go than "Completely revamp/replace the t9s"

 

If the t9 powers are already "Essential" for PvP and effective during their uptime, I don't really see a reason to significantly alter that gameplay avenue from where it is, currently, as it would just upset the meta for the sake of upsetting the meta.

 

I don't feel like it's a "Bad" idea, on it's face. As changing to static uptimes could be an interesting way to go with it. Perhaps even causing "Toggle Suppression" as a core function, especially with a Toggle Cost Reduction during the power's duration to make it so you don't have to take the time to retoggle as soon as the power crashes, allowing your character to maintain survivability outside of those "Power Modes"

 

I just don't feel like making them flatly numerically stronger by closing holes and removing the crash is automatically the right answer, either.

 

How about we create a compromise with an "Alternate t9" setup?

 

One in which the current version of the t9 is largely swapped out for your version. 66% uptime, Ignore Recharge, Drastically lowered crash. Not -nothing- but not 100%, either. Maybe you lose 80% of your current stamina but your recovery remains the same? I dunno. Make it not -terrible- to come down.

 

And then the alternate t9 is a straight up -alternate-. Instead of Unstoppable you can get Unbreakable, which grants a massive Absorb Shield that recharges a small amount every 2 seconds for a while, making it something that works -with- your Resistance-Focused powerset, offsets some of the Psi hole without plugging it (Psi would rip through the Absorb a lot better than Smashing/Lethal would, after all), and has a different type of crash at the end. Like maybe Unbreakable turns your muscles to Jello and you wind up with an 80% Damage Debuff for 10 seconds like a reverse Build Up. Still a 66% uptime, ignoring recharge. Just different.

 

I feel like that would create a ton more build variety, and see more people using their t9 in PvE and PvP.

[Aracknight]

I don't know.  Granite essentially removes the necessity of most of Stone Armor's other powers, though there are drawbacks (That I feel are slowly being walked back as the game evolves).  Maybe there's some logic to a toggle that sort of overrides the rest of the set. 

 

I main an MA/SR Scrapper, I'm over the soft cap at all times, but I also keep Elude in my pocket because reasons.  I don't know if pvp is the carrot that would make me use it more often, but then, I dont know what else would either.

[America's Angel]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

I don't think "Buff the t9s to the point that you don't need the rest of your eight tiers of powers for 66% of playtime and they are all essentially homogenous complete protection" is any more reasonable a direction to go than "Completely revamp/replace the t9s"

 

 

Resist Physical Damage provides DDR.

Dull Pain provides +HP and a heal.

Resist Elements provides slow resist.

Resist Energies provides end drain/-recovery resist.

Invincibility provides defense and tohit.

Tough Hide provides defense and DDR

 

...why wouldn't you use these with Unstoppable? It provides none of these benefits.

 

The only power you wouldn't need outside of the downtime is Temporary Invulnerability. (And possibly Unyielding.)

 

And if all that wasn't true, I'm not sure I agree with the idea of adding absorb. I don't think  Invulnerability needs a buff in PVE. It's already really good.

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by America's Angel

[Steampunkette]

13 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

 

 

Resist Physical Damage provides DDR.

Dull Pain provides +HP and a heal.

Resist Elements provides slow resist.

Resist Energies provides end drain/-recovery resist.

Invincibility provides defense and tohit.

Tough Hide provides defense and DDR

 

...why wouldn't you use these with Unstoppable? It provides none of these benefits.

 

The only power you wouldn't need outside of the downtime is Temporary Invulnerability. (And possibly Unyielding.)

 

And if all that wasn't true, I'm not sure I agree with the idea of adding absorb. I don't think  Invulnerability needs a buff in PVE. It's already really good.

 

I definitely agree that Invulnerability doesn't need a buff. But it does kinda need a Tier 9 that isn't largely useless in PvE while being essential for PvP.

 

As to your other points: Eh. Once you're able to 3 slot Resistance SOs into Unstoppable as a 66% Uptime power, those things all become significantly less -needed- with the possible exception of Dull Pain. Mainly because everything you've listed is a secondary or tertiary effect of those powers and doesn't provide comprehensive protection against those aspects.

 

The idea of the Absorb Power is just a rough cut for an alternate (Mutually Exclusive) tier 9. Something else could just as easily take it's place.

 

Of course, any Tier 9 that Invuln can actually -use- in PvE without being a largely useless pick is going to be a buff for the set (Much like doing the same for all the other sets with t9s that crash after just doing what the set already does but bigger and in one power)

[Haijinx]

If these powers are so useful in PVP perhaps some care should be made when trying to implement what amounts to buffs to them.

 

Since that could result in added PVP advantage. 

[America's Angel]

27 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

I definitely agree that Invulnerability doesn't need a buff. But it does kinda need a Tier 9 that isn't largely useless in PvE while being essential for PvP.

 

As to your other points: Eh. Once you're able to 3 slot Resistance SOs into Unstoppable as a 66% Uptime power, those things all become significantly less -needed- with the possible exception of Dull Pain. Mainly because everything you've listed is a secondary or tertiary effect of those powers and doesn't provide comprehensive protection against those aspects.

All of those things are hugely needed on an invuln. It's how the set is balanced.

 

Being able to cap res via unstoppable rather than temp invuln + unyielding doesn't suddenly make Invuln not need DDR, end drain resist, or defense.

 

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

If these powers are so useful in PVP perhaps some care should be made when trying to implement what amounts to buffs to them.

 

Since that could result in added PVP advantage. 

Yup. Like it said in my OP.

[Steampunkette]

50 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

All of those things are hugely needed on an invuln. It's how the set is balanced.

 

Being able to cap res via unstoppable rather than temp invuln + unyielding doesn't suddenly make Invuln not need DDR, end drain resist, or defense.

 

Yup. Like it said in my OP.

As someone who has played a Peacebringer at level 50 for Perma Light Form: I vehemently disagree.

 

Yeah. The set is balanced around those other effects, but they're not -needed-. With 85% Resistance to everything but Psionic Damage and a self heal I could tank +4x8 indefinitely. The only groups that could give me a challenge were those that were Psi heavy. Even Knives with their -recharge Caltrops couldn't stop me and I had practically no -rech resistance at all.

 

During that 66% Uptime with 90% Resistance to everything but Psi, Invuln would be stupid powerful, even without all the other toggles in the set.

[arthurh35353]

Huh. What if the T9s just made you much tougher to debuff? Like super heavy amount of Debuff Resistances along with a small +Res/+Def with a smaller or minimal 'crash'?

 

(Or am I have weird tangent ideas again?)

Edited April 13, 2021 by arthurh35353

[America's Angel]

 

On 4/13/2021 at 1:47 AM, Steampunkette said:

Yeah. The set is balanced around those other effects, but they're not -needed-. With 85% Resistance to everything but Psionic Damage and a self heal I could tank +4x8 indefinitely. The only groups that could give me a challenge were those that were Psi heavy. Even Knives with their -recharge Caltrops couldn't stop me and I had practically no -rech resistance at all.

 

They are needed. Especially versus enemies that do -deff, -recovery, and -end attacks. Such as:

-The kheldian ambush in the ITF doing -def attacks.

-Cimerorans doing -def

-PPD doing -def attacks

-Lord Recluse's -recovery and -enddrain attacks

-Carnies (with their death endurance attacks)

 

To use you as an example - Kheldians don't get DDR. So versus a +4/8 mob that is spamming you with -def, you'll be at the -def floor. The DPS of a +4/8 Kheld ambush or Cim mob is ~2000. So your 85% res perma lightform peacebringer, assuming 200% regen and your two heals firing off, is lasting around 13-14 seconds.

 

This is why DDR matters. An Invuln can stack the DDR from ageless with its native DDR to survive those spawns for much longer. Due to peacebringers having no native DDR, Ageless does much less for you in these situations.

 

On 4/13/2021 at 1:47 AM, Steampunkette said:

During that 66% Uptime with 90% Resistance to everything but Psi, Invuln would be stupid powerful, even without all the other toggles in the set.

 

My Invuln tank ALREADY has 100% uptime of 90% resistance to everything, INCLUDING psy.

 

So the thing you're saying is "too powerful" at 66% uptime, is something I -ALREADY- have at 100% uptime.

 

Again, here are my invuln tanker's numbers:

 

This is WITHOUT unstoppable or any incarnates.

 

My invuln right now, using all the toggles in the set, is MORE powerful than an Invuln using just unstoppable.

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by America's Angel

[PeregrineFalcon]

If I were in charge of working on the tier 9 armor powers I'd change them to be like One with the Shield. 120 second duration, 360 second recharge, ignores all recharge. This makes them work great as Oh ****! powers, but prevents them from being "abused" by people who've built for perma-Hasten.

 

As for the effects, I'd have them be the opposite of what the rest of the set is. So like Elude would only add 10% or 15% defense, a bunch of defense debuff resistance, and something like 50% resistance to all damage types. Because the best types of armor sets are the ones with multiple layers. That's why Willpower works so well on Scrappers, but Super Reflexes is brittle.

 

So like Power Surge would only grant 20% damage resistance but also 30% defense and 50% defense debuff resistance. Or something like that. I'm just spitballing with the numbers. You get my point.

[Steampunkette]

31 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

 

Have you played Invuln, Elec Armour, SR, EA, or Ninjitsu at 50? Because that's the topic.

 

 

They are needed. Especially versus enemies that do -deff, -recovery, and -end attacks. Such as:

-The kheldian ambush in the ITF doing -def attacks.

-Cimerorans doing -def

-PPD doing -def attacks

-Lord Recluse's -recovery and -enddrain attacks

-Carnies (with their death endurance attacks)

 

To use you as an example - Kheldians don't get DDR. So versus a +4/8 mob that is spamming you with -def, you'll be at the -def floor. The DPS of a +4/8 Kheld ambush or Cim mob is ~2000. So your 85% res perma lightform peacebringer, assuming 200% regen and your two heals firing off, is lasting around 13-14 seconds.

 

This is why DDR matters. An Invuln can stack the DDR from ageless with its native DDR to survive those spawns for much longer. Due to peacebringers having no native DDR, Ageless does much less for you in these situations.

 

 

What are you talking about? My Invuln tank ALREADY has 100% uptime of 90% resistance to everything, INCLUDING psy.

 

So the thing you're saying is "too powerful" at 66% uptime, is something I -ALREADY- have at 100% uptime.

 

Again, here are my invuln tanker's numbers:

 

This is WITHOUT unstoppable or any incarnates.

 

So what you're saying makes absolutely no sense. My invuln right now, using all the toggles in the set, is MORE powerful than an Invuln using just unstoppable.

 

 

 

Hardcastle. Level 50 SS/Inv Brute.

 

Didn't bother with Unstoppable, 'cause like you I wound up unkillable without it using IOs. Didn't need it. Would've been an utter waste to bother with it.

 

If I had grabbed it? I could've turned off all my toggles and -still- been unkillable thanks to Unstoppable -and- the Set Bonuses.

 

Saying "It wouldn't be stupidly powerful 'cause I can be stupidly powerful without it using Set Bonuses!" does not make it any less stupidly powerful.

 

And you're right. My PB didn't solo the ITF or otherwise rush headlong into hyperdifficult content without support of friends. Didn't need to do that, either. But standard run of the mill stuff? No problem outside of Carnies, and even then it was only the Psychic ones that really messed me up (The rest do a bunch of Energy/Fire/Lethal/Smashing.).

 

Well. That and Quantums, but that's a whole other story.

 

The Reason I used PB as an example was because with 5% -Less- Damage Resistance and 0 DDR/Slow Resistance/Etc I was -still- a honking badass tearing through all the standard content without getting winded for more than a crash's duration. I.E. Unstoppable with none of the secondary effects you cited as the reason an Invuln character should absolutely run all their other abilities while Unstoppable is up.

 

And, again, I need you to remember that I'm Agreeing with you that these Tier 9s are freaking useless in PvE 99% of the time. I just think your particular brand of fix "Give 'em no crash and 66% Uptime" doesn't actually fix the problem in PvE because they just do what the rest of the damned set does by themselves as regards the primary benefit of the powers in the set.

 

If you've got 90% Resist to everything and 60% Defense to almost everything: Why bother clicking Unstoppable in PvE content? "It can have a 66% Uptime and No Crash" doesn't actually DO anything for you 'cause you're -already- maxed out on everything. The Recovery Buff? So just replace their Tier 9 with a Recovery Buff and toddle on your merry way if that's the only actual benefit PvE Players are getting from the power.

 

Which is -why- I suggested the Absorb Shield as an Alternate Tier 9. @PeregrineFalcon -absolutely- gets it. If your Tier 9 doesn't do anything you can't already do -and- comes with any kind of penalty: Why the hell bother? For PvP this fix makes flawless sense thanks to the different way stuff is calculated for PvP Combat. For PvE?

 

Your suggestion doesn't actually -do- anything.

[Andreah]

Why not just make these powers behave completely the same in PvP forever, and then change them to something appropriately useful in PvE for those oh-shoot moments.

 

Or, on the other hand, don't do anything to these. If they were worth taking, I'd have to respec to take them, and my PvE characters don't need them now. I don't need to be more powerful. I'd much rather more of the content caught up with my current levels of power.

 

My Inv/SS Tanker doesn't need unstoppable. Even if Unstoppable were a good emergency power, I probably would not take it. I already have emergency powers sitting in my temp powers bar and in my inspiration tray.  Those don't make me lose when they wear off. 

 

In principle, I don't like powers with crashes. I think these were a bad design choice from the beginning, leave them for the annoying NPC's to use. They are not fun, and I almost never take them. Now, too much of what we have is predicated on them being useless or essential, for when and where they are. If we make Unstoppable decent in PvE, the rest of the set would need to be balanced for it, and I can imagine the trouble that would stir up. I think that would go for all the crashy T9's across all the sets. 

 

These powers should be fixed only if it's deemed worthwhile to give the entire powerset a substantial balance pass. Not just tweaks -- a full rebalance. I hate them, but I don't think fixing them should be a priority right now, if ever.

[Steampunkette]

I would be hard pressed to disagree...

 

There is, however, another direction we could take them, rather than the Willpower or One With the Shield direction:

 

Team Buffs/Enemy Debuffs. Keep the current T9s for PvP, or even give 'em the 66% uptime change, then do up different options for the rest.

 

Radiation's got Ground Zero, Shield has Grant Cover. We could go for similar mechanics for Energy, Invuln, Electric, SR, and Ninja. Could also sprinkle in some Control effect.

 

Invuln Alt T9: Meat Shield. PBAoE Toggle, nearby allies gain an Absorb shield.

 

Energy Alt T9: Pulsewave. PBAoE Debuff-Nuke that applies -Dam, -Res (All), -End to all enemies in the immediate area.

 

Electric Alt T9: Corruscating Charge. Chain Ally Heal/+Recovery.

 

Ninjitsu Alt T9: Ninja Vanish. Targeted AoE (Ally) Placate. Throw a Smoke Bomb and your target and all allies in the area Placate nearby enemies and gain Stealth.

 

SR Alt T9: No idea, but there could be -something-.

 

Most of these options are largely useless to the person using them (With the exception of Pulsewave) if they're Solo, or not really a 'team player' character. So most players wouldn't feel -pressed- to Respec. But for new characters you'd have some interesting options to pull out at high level that could also play into your Epic Pool Choices for more build variety.

[Leogunner]

Considering the constant casualization that continuously keeps floating to the surface, I'd argue just keeping certain powers as niche, even if that niche is that specific power is only really useful in PvP.  Notice that the T9s aren't *useless*, you just create a build that doesn't want or need it which is completely different than the powers being broken and need to be reworked.

[tidge]

8 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

I would be hard pressed to disagree...

 

There is, however, another direction we could take them, rather than the Willpower or One With the Shield direction:

 

Team Buffs/Enemy Debuffs. Keep the current T9s for PvP, or even give 'em the 66% uptime change, then do up different options for the rest.

 

I like the thinking here.  If the T9 are find use in PVP, I guess that's good for them... but I neither play PVP nor take the T9s, so I'm ignorant of them. I would certainly reconsider them if they helped my team, but with the caveats:

• Do we really need more powers to make teams MOAR powerful?
• T9s come late in the game for the content where extra team buffs would make a difference.

[Leogunner]

29 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

I like the thinking here.  If the T9 are find use in PVP, I guess that's good for them... but I neither play PVP nor take the T9s, so I'm ignorant of them. I would certainly reconsider them if they helped my team, but with the caveats:

• Do we really need more powers to make teams MOAR powerful?
• T9s come late in the game for the content where extra team buffs would make a difference.

I think there was a better argument in another thread for just shifting some of those tier 9s earlier in the set instead since getting a defense "nuke" isn't really needed once your build is stable in the 35+ range.  Having a crashing buff in the 12-30 range is much more beneficial even if it ends up causing you to die once its over and you can respec out of it if you don't play early game and you can keep it in your build if you often exemp down....

 

....is what I would have said if the early game wasn't further simplified with easy SO access right off the bat.  Soon we're probably going to see recharge times chopped and/or easier access to pretty much any meta buff like Hasten.

[tidge]

If the game and the sets were re-examined from scratch, having such a power earlier in the sets might be useful... but for the most part I think the current progression of Armor (and Defensive) sets is pretty solid. I have a couple of characters where I *personally* felt I was not getting a specific type of Defense until late in the progression, but this vague feeling wasn't affecting my enjoyment of the game... and with set bonuses from IOs I can use Ouroboros to go back to those earlier levels and increase difficulties.

 

TL;DR: I see re-arranging the Armor (and Defense) sets to include a potentially useful click at an earlier level as more of a NERF, since it will be delaying (mostly) useful power choices until later.  I won't support a solution to the "problem" of "most players don't take a T9" to be "move one of the useful lower level powers to T9 so that they take it".

[Steampunkette]

T9s can't be additive but we could increase build variety by getting players to drop other powers in their builds?

 

But you also purport that you NEED all the other powers in your build to survive even with the Unstoppable. MAYBE you could do without a couple of powers, but you'd need the rest... Well except maybe Temporary Invulnerability. Which is a Resistance Power. So Resistance Slotted. Exactly like Unstoppable is. And also only be effective during that 66% Uptime (Unless you used Sets to make the Uptime irrelevant in which case we're back to square one). So no -actual- build variety, you're just choosing which of two powers to slot a Resistance Set into, and one of them stops working for 33% of gameplay...

 

So.. uh... Useless?

 

Thunderspy is That Way, you say? Cool Beans. Don't care.

 

If you're suggesting some kind of "Fix" for Tier 9s that doesn't -actually- fix anything, what the hell is the point? Make it more useful for PvP? It's already useful for PvP and probably doesn't need an extra buff for a Niche Playstyle.

 

If you're not looking for alternative suggestions to fix T9s then there's just no purpose to this discussion, really. 'Cause it just doesn't -do- anything outside of buffing a few sets at high end for PvP only. And if that's your real suggestion with a bunch of "We could make PvE Different, too!" thrown on top of it in the hopes of obfuscating?

 

No thanks.

[siolfir]

Honestly, I would rather see some of them flipped around - the extra defense rarely helps SR, the extra resistance doesn't help Electric Armor - but that's likely off the table.

 

In that case, I'd say these changes would boost them without changing a huge amount:

• Eliminate all hit point crashes (Unstoppable, Power Surge)
• Powers with a full endurance crash will only crash 50% instead (this is what Strength of Will currently has).
• Remove -recovery from all that have it.
  • Optional: Power Surge can keep the (self) -recovery because it crashes with an EMP, which has a recovery crash in Radiation Emission.
  • Note that I'd rather see the (self) -recovery removed from all forms of EMP.
• Get rid of the endurance crashes in One with the Shield and Strength of Will, or cut them in half (to 30% and 25% respectively) if you have to keep them.

This way the uptime and effect of the powers is not diminished, but the crash becomes easier to deal with and, for Unstoppable, isn't practically a death sentence (I'd include Power Surge there too, but the EMP during the crash has saved me back in issue 8 when I had it on an SO build and hit Build Up just before it dropped).

[Steampunkette]

17 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Honestly, I would rather see some of them flipped around - the extra defense rarely helps SR, the extra resistance doesn't help Electric Armor - but that's likely off the table.

 

In that case, I'd say these changes would boost them without changing a huge amount:

• Eliminate all hit point crashes (Unstoppable, Power Surge)
• Powers with a full endurance crash will only crash 50% instead (this is what Strength of Will currently has).
• Remove -recovery from all that have it.
  • Optional: Power Surge can keep the (self) -recovery because it crashes with an EMP, which has a recovery crash in Radiation Emission.
  • Note that I'd rather see the (self) -recovery removed from all forms of EMP.
• Get rid of the endurance crashes in One with the Shield and Strength of Will, or cut them in half (to 30% and 25% respectively) if you have to keep them.

This way the uptime and effect of the powers is not diminished, but the crash becomes easier to deal with and, for Unstoppable, isn't practically a death sentence (I'd include Power Surge there too, but the EMP during the crash has saved me back in issue 8 when I had it on an SO build and hit Build Up just before it dropped).

But you still don't -need- Unstoppable.

 

Even without a crash, you'd still be taking the other powers in your set and using them and set bonuses to essentially become a slab of unstoppable meat before the Unstoppable Power comes into play. You've gotten rid of the penalty for using the power, but haven't made it any more attractive to actually take.

[siolfir]

Just now, Steampunkette said:

But you still don't -need- Unstoppable.

 

Even without a crash, you'd still be taking the other powers in your set and using them and set bonuses to essentially become a slab of unstoppable meat before the Unstoppable Power comes into play. You've gotten rid of the penalty for using the power, but haven't made it any more attractive to actually take.

With IOs, you don't need any of these powers. And that's a build choice that everyone can make for themselves. Just like you could take the nukes - which did more damage than they do now when they had crashes - but people were skipping them because they didn't like being useless right after using them.

 

It would make the powers more attractive for less expensive builds or those that focus on other bonuses than +def, +res, and +recharge, and the way the sets are designed (with defense sets getting +def tier 9s and resistance sets getting +res tier 9s) means that you would have to flip the effects to get layered mitigation out of them - which I would prefer - but that still wouldn't make you need them, a concept that I am against in the first place.

 

The only way to make them needed is to nerf the hell out of the sets that they are in.

[America's Angel]

On 4/13/2021 at 3:20 PM, siolfir said:

In that case, I'd say these changes would boost them without changing a huge amount:

• Eliminate all hit point crashes (Unstoppable, Power Surge)
• Powers with a full endurance crash will only crash 50% instead (this is what Strength of Will currently has).
• Remove -recovery from all that have it.
  • Optional: Power Surge can keep the (self) -recovery because it crashes with an EMP, which has a recovery crash in Radiation Emission.
  • Note that I'd rather see the (self) -recovery removed from all forms of EMP.
• Get rid of the endurance crashes in One with the Shield and Strength of Will, or cut them in half (to 30% and 25% respectively) if you have to keep them.

This way the uptime and effect of the powers is not diminished, but the crash becomes easier to deal with and, for Unstoppable, isn't practically a death sentence (I'd include Power Surge there too, but the EMP during the crash has saved me back in issue 8 when I had it on an SO build and hit Build Up just before it dropped).

 

Yeah I like those ideas. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by America's Angel