Armour T9s

[Grindingsucks]

Well, one thing that is certain, the crashes that cause your endurance to completely tank are near guaranteed death for AT's that live and die by toggle powers.  Very few people will those kinds of toons will choose a power of this kind, for obvious reasons.  Crashes that cause your health to drop to near nothing are almost as bad.  I don't mind impaired endurance recovery and damage, as much- I can always have a couple of blue and red inspirations in reserve for when I know the crash is coming to compensate for that.

 

The T9 that I use the most is the Willpower T9, which I think is a pretty good model for how they ought to be balanced, in general.

 

I don't want to completely remove any crash aspects from the T9's.  The power is supposed to represent a heroic, last ditch effort to give everything you've got to save the day (and, hopefully, live to tell about it).  The problem now, as I see it, is that there's often little-to-no chance that you WILL live to tell about it, even if your a smart, prepared player.

 

If there were no IO sets or Incarnates in this game, I would say, "Just get rid of the crashes."  But there are, so I don't think the T9's should exist without this drawback.  I just think the drawback is applied much too aggressively to many of the powers.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Grindingsucks said:

Well, one thing that is certain, the crashes that cause your endurance to completely tank are near guaranteed death for AT's that live and die by toggle powers.  Very few people will those kinds of toons will choose a power of this kind, for obvious reasons.  Crashes that cause your health to drop to near nothing are almost as bad.  I don't mind impaired endurance recovery and damage, as much- I can always have a couple of blue and red inspirations in reserve for when I know the crash is coming to compensate for that.

 

The T9 that I use the most is the Willpower T9, which I think is a pretty good model for how they ought to be balanced, in general.

 

I don't want to completely remove any crash aspects from the T9's.  The power is supposed to represent a heroic, last ditch effort to give everything you've got to save the day (and, hopefully, live to tell about it).  The problem now, as I see it, is that there's often little-to-no chance that you WILL live to tell about it, even if your a smart, prepared player.

 

If there were no IO sets or Incarnates in this game, I would say, "Just get rid of the crashes."  But there are, so I don't think the T9's should exist without this drawback.  I just think the drawback is applied much too aggressively to many of the powers.

I mostly agree with this, although I should point out it’s not any harder to pop a purple than a blue. Even so, I do mostly agree.

[Grindingsucks]

Right.  Point taken.  👍

[Mezmera]

5 hours ago, America's Angel said:

(you're obviously not, those who claim this never are, hence my gif response

 

You know nothing little one

[Mezmera]

5 hours ago, America's Angel said:

And as for "Survive. Adapt."? I have. I'm still here, PVPing. You, on the other hand, no longer PVP

 

I did enjoy the pvp even when they changed the mez mechanic.  Upon my return I saw all the ice/plant blasters and made my own blaster.  Once I finished and got my 1600 hp one of my buddies I pvp with said blaster max hp cap was raised.........

 

That confirmed for me that no wonder all I'll see is blasters with 5 procs in their hold attacks.  Not fun, not diverse so I'll take my leave until they fix things so we don't regress even further to all we see are blasters and melee toons "having" to survive using their godmodes.  

Edited April 14, 2021 by Mezmera

[PeregrineFalcon]

I love how this discussion about Tier 9 Armor powers has degenerated into bickering about Blasters and PvP.

 

Please remember that we're all here because we love City of Heroes. And most of us are even mature enough to post on the forums without childishly insulting people. Let me know when you all want to actually start talking about Tier 9 Armor powers again. Peace.

[Mezmera]

25 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I love how this discussion about Tier 9 Armor powers has degenerated into bickering about Blasters and PvP.

 

Please remember that we're all here because we love City of Heroes. And most of us are even mature enough to post on the forums without childishly insulting people. Let me know when you all want to actually start talking about Tier 9 Armor powers again. Peace.

 

Yes, might want to mention that to the one that started the conversation because it'll affect their lolpvp and then insults anyone that decides to chime in to their discourse if they get the feeling it sounds like a nerf to how their pvp will play, out come the insults.  

 

This topic is deceptively really about pvp.  

Edited April 14, 2021 by Mezmera

[tidge]

I like the discussion that is considering approaches other than "more of what you got from the T1 thru T8" powers... because quite frankly, most of the Resistance sets DON'T need that, no matter what the potential negative effects are.

 

At the risk of allowing Blasters into the conversation in an adjacent way... there is a huge asymmetry between offense (which gets rid of enemies) and defense (which survives enemies) in terms of rewards... even without considering "crashless nukes". Right now: The Blaster T9s make them better Blasters, but the Tanker T9s don't make better Tankers (in PvE, certainly).

 

Personally, I can describe what I always EXPECTED the Armor T9 to feel like (back on Live), even if it never played this way (for understandable reasons): I expected (on my Invulnerability main) to be able to shrug off attacks from GMs and AVs... just like in the first mission from Mender Ramiel's arc. Obviously neither Oroborous nor Incarnates were a thing back then, but with the (original) level cap at 40... this is basically what I wanted from the primary T9. I never got it, and for good reasons.

 

I can see that my personal expectations from long ago are way out of line for game balance... but they still occupy some real estate in my head space.

[America's Angel]

On 4/14/2021 at 4:27 PM, Wavicle said:

I’m thinking some should have it lessened (Unstoppable) while others should have it removed (Elude). But I’m open to the idea that they’ll also have to be nerfed a little bit.

Elude's -recovery is especially problematic because, unlike Energy Aura or Ninjitsu, Super Reflexes has no +end power.

 

  

On 4/14/2021 at 4:38 PM, Grindingsucks said:

If there were no IO sets or Incarnates in this game, I would say, "Just get rid of the crashes."  But there are, so I don't think the T9's should exist without this drawback.  I just think the drawback is applied much too aggressively to many of the powers.

I like the rest of your post. But it's important to remember this game is not balanced around IOs or Incarnates. Things like being able to chain T9s with Hybrid/Barrier shouldn't matter from a balance POV IMO.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by America's Angel

[Grindingsucks]

Quote

I like the rest of your post. But it's important to remember this game is not balanced around IOs or Incarnates. Things like being able to chain T9s with Hybrid/Barrier shouldn't matter from a balance POV IMO.

 

Well, IMO, it's more accurate to say that the game is not balanced at all, anymore, thanks to the power creep introduced by IO sets and Incarnates.  Certainly, the Homecoming team is trying to address balance as best they may, but to get true, balanced team play would require either removing those two elements of the game or across the board power nerfs (don't have an apoplexy on me, here; I know we're not supposed to mention nerfs.  It's not going to happen anyway.  I think the great majority of the player base shares your feelings on nerfing powers, so that will never happen).

 

But, my position is this: if you can't address balance issues by nerfing overpowered aspects of the game, then at least don't exacerbate the problem by adding more power creep.  🤷‍♂️

[Captain Citadel]

On 4/12/2021 at 5:19 PM, America's Angel said:

Okay so even though the downsides have been removed... why would my PVE invuln tank use unstoppable? This is what her (incarnate-less) stats look like:

Can I ask how you achieved such complete and total def/res cap uptime? I've never been able to achieve anything close to this on my Invuln/SS.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Captain Citadel said:

Can I ask how you achieved such complete and total def/res cap uptime? I've never been able to achieve anything close to this on my Invuln/SS.

Those look like saturated Invincibility numbers to me.

[Captain Citadel]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Those look like saturated Invincibility numbers to me.

I'd just like to see a build file because even with 10 stacks of Invincibility, I can't go that high. It won't boost positional defenses. And even if you could stack Invincibility infinitely, it won't give you +Res. I can play the game with figurative god mode, this is literal god mode. Either @America's Angel has the greatest Invuln build in the universe, or these numbers are fudged. Unless she's sacrificed all her damage output to achieve this, I don't know.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Captain Citadel said:

I'd just like to see a build file because even with 10 stacks of Invincibility, I can't go that high. It won't boost positional defenses. And even if you could stack Invincibility infinitely, it won't give you +Res. I can play the game with figurative god mode, this is literal god mode. Either @America's Angel has the greatest Invuln build in the universe, or these numbers are fudged. Unless she's sacrificed all her damage output to achieve this, I don't know.

Oh yea, I looked too quick and only saw the defence, not the resistance.

 

It does look suspicious. I am also curious how this was achieved.

 

[Wavicle]

I do think that the idea that the tier 9s are intended for people who Don't yet have billion inf builds is actually perfectly fine, though not the best it could be.

But with that in mind, the crashes should go.

If you've spent so much inf that you no longer need unstoppable then that's great, don't take it.

Not everyone can (or WANTS to) invest that much.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Wavicle

[Troo]

I think I started a post here and just didn't finish it.

 

T9s should be set defining level powers.. but not required. (we are almost there currently sans crashes)

 

That said and keeping an eye on over power creep, removing/reducing crashes will come at a cost. That cost like it or not will be borne by the high end of the spectrum not the 32/38 to 46 range.

(yep, I got to say folks are on the spectrum)

 

New t9s could absolutely fit a 'This is so AWESOME' mold, until maybe, as a character grows and gets more powerful, they are not needed as much anymore or at all. Enter @Captain Powerhouse and their mad skills.

 

Who knows, maybe something is already in the works.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Troo

[Troo]

On 4/13/2021 at 8:20 AM, siolfir said:

All you have to do is look at the first several pages on the Fly buffs and how people were outraged that Afterburner's +maxspeed was rolled into Fly and another popup tray power was added to see how people will complain about anything even if it's a straight buff.

 

QOL and/or changing values in a power is different from completely removing and replacing.

 

Afterburner has use cases that will be completely removed. The mini PFF to get into and out of combat/buffing/etc will be gone. A niche use, but some were able to utilize the only affecting self in a way. I don't begrudge anyone for speaking up for how experience is impacted. Belittling or poking fun at them will elicit a different response.

 

T9 changes will impact high end builds that have figured out ways to take advantage of them. It is a similar situation were use cases will be impacted. Except in this case they would not be removed entirely... unless a player chooses to abandon it.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Troo

[Steampunkette]

52 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Oh yea, I looked too quick and only saw the defence, not the resistance.

 

It does look suspicious. I am also curious how this was achieved.

 

Accolades.

 

I'm pretty sure Elusive Mind is calculated in there, as well as Eye of the Magus.

[Wavicle]

48 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Accolades.

 

I'm pretty sure Elusive Mind is calculated in there, as well as Eye of the Magus.

Those have uptime of what...?

[Mezmera]

24 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Those have uptime of what...?

60s

[Wavicle]

Just now, Mezmera said:

60s

lol and downtime of...?

[Mezmera]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

lol and downtime of...?

 

I believe they redid the accolades, it used to be 25 mins affected by global recharge but they lowered it recently I think to be unaffected by global recharge but at I'm thinking 8-10 mins.  

[Wavicle]

I see.

Well, yea, I don't think that the fact a build with Tons of IOs and a bunch of Accolades can afford to skip its T9 is a design problem at all.

Lower the crashes to 50% and call it a day.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Wavicle

[Mezmera]

19 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I see.

Well, yea, I don't think that the fact a build with Tons of IOs and a bunch of Accolades can afford to skip its T9 is a design problem at all.

Remove or lower the crashes and call it a day.

 

Yeah my doms have great defenses outside of my Demonic accolade which I don't calculate into my build but it is in the toolkit if I ever need it in emergencies.  Counting accolades into things if it's not the auto ones I don't consider a good basis to make my decision by.  

 

The powers should be good and meaningful if ever you need it with a negative aspect once its over.  Typically on my shield tank if I ever do need One With the Shield it's actually for the endurance if ever Recluse's wicked end debuff manages to get through my defense.  If it shuts a lot of things down I can still ride that nice resistance out while I need it.  But I do only end up using it once a week ever.  

 

The t9's should be inspected individually by their overall design of the power set I agree with very much.  Shield is nice because there's a lot of balance in the set but trends towards defense so a lot of the resist you get in it's t9 is appreciated whenever you'd like to use it that way with a manageable crash.  

Edited April 15, 2021 by Mezmera

[Wavicle]

I amended it to 50%.