end cost of running multiple defensive auras needs a serious look

[Valicious]

For Brutes: Super Reflexes powers give 13.86% defense and cost 0.26 end/sec. Leadership/Maneuvers gives 2.28% defense and costs 0.39 end/sec

Which one do you think is the problem?

 

There is no problem with the endurance cost for toggles in the game.

 

People are trying to help you and you're arguing from a position of ignorance.

 

Actually if you'll look at my responses I've taken many helpful suggestions.  The fact remains that tanks have a much higher endurance cost compared to every other build.  if i don't use manu or tactics and i remove the recharge from attacks my endurance is stable as long as i don't fight things that drain endurance.  that's while using an absurd number of end reduction/enhance mods.  I should not have to slot every slot with endurance stuff to not run out of endurance.  One suggestion would be to adjust the toggle cost based on level since it's easier to compensate for at higher levels.  so, once AGAIN, the problem is the cost of defensive toggles in low-mid levels.

[RussHood]

SR only has 3 toggles, And a click mez res, not bad on end

EM has a lot of AoE, which ALWAYS costs more endurance. 

 

If you had a secondary with an end drain/recov boost, you would probably be fine, but until you slot really well, prepare to spam taunt. 

 

Also, rechage reduction nets increased end consumption, if you are actively using the powers more

[Errants]

man, lot of posts to respond to lol

 

It sounds like your friend with the endurance problems was running solo.  I don't solo ever.  Let us assume that my character gets perfect accuracy and can never miss.  If my end regen can't keep up with my end loss i will lose endurance as i fight.  If the fight goes on long enough I will run out of endurance.  Let's further assume that with my now perfect accuracy I do 2x the damage I used to. That means our group fights will be a little faster.  It won't fix me losing endurance as I fight though.

 

as for the leadership toggles i'd agree with tactics however maneuvers and/or other defensive toggles are pretty mandatory if you don't want to constantly be forced to use defensive inspirations.  You can read up more on defense here https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Defense_Effectiveness I found this to be very helpful.

 

thanks for taking the time to suggest a build! so looking at the recharge time and end cost of what i'm using vs what your suggesting the attacks will be roughly the same cost over time but the fights would end a little sooner.  I'd still have issues with endurance though.  especially after doublling my passive end/sec from toggles.  that'd be...not good.  as for why maneuvers or other defensive toggles that link above is why :)

 

difficulty varies as I usually join someone elses group.  mobs are at least yellow, sometimes purple.  Set bonuses could def help out a little so thanks for that idea!

 

thanks for the taunt tip! and stam is 6 slotted because i slotted everything for minimum endurance drain/maximum endurance regen. I only run around with sprint atm and i toggle it off in combat

 

I didn't think about the end buff from self heal.  that's a really awesome tip ty!

 

there's not def in my defensive skills because i was running out of end.  might be able to put def instead of end red once i pickup self heal for the end boost.  we'll see :)

 

The underlying problem here is you can build top tier characters to buff, debuff, cc, heal and dps that EASILY don't run out of endurance.  But building a highly defensive tank, even with an absurd amount of end red and end mod still has end issues.  Let's say I drop tactics(which i should).  that nets me back .39/s which is pretty big.  however i still need to add 2 more defensive toggles to get my defense up where it needs to actually be in addition to switching all end reduction on defensive abilities to def boosts.  those 2 extra toggles from power pools puts me right back at the same endurance cost per second. my passive end/sec would also double.  so atm, i'm forced to be kind of half tanky?

 

I think It's doable at 50.  I was planning on getting soul mastery which has a -acc and -tohit which would then let me drop a defensive toggle or hopefully more?  plus i'll have more slots to play with. Right now though, at my level, it's awful trying to spec as a tank.

 

I don't think making a strong tank build super restrictive and almost impossible to achieve when low-mid level is ok.  It should allow for more flexability like all the other non-tank builds.  That is why my feedback on this is that they really need to look at end costs for defensive buffs.

You're building it how you want, this is true... However, you're building it counter-intuitively to how the character would be better played.

 

You don't have perfect accuracy, and you never will. You get a 75% chance to hit, base. Therefore, most slot some accuracy into an attack, as the attack does nothing if it doesn't hit. You then slot Damage into attacks, because you want them to actually do something. I've found that slotting the 2nd slot as an EndRed helps a lot on Brutes and/or other toons that I'm constantly spamming powers, as that allows me to spam longer. I slot Damage after that, much like I showed you.

 

I understand you're using that guide to help you... You will get BETTER returns on your slotting if you slot for Defense over EndRed in your toggles, and DROP Maneuvers entirely...

For example:

Your slotting of 3 EndRed into FF/FS/Evasion/Maneuv and PB, and 1 Def into Agile/Dodge---

22.9% M/R Defense

16.2% AoE Defense

Net +1.93eps with 0.63eps drain (with PB on auto-fire)

 

My suggested slotting to you:

28.1% M/R Defense

21.4% AoE Defense

Net +1.60eps with 0.87eps drain (PB on auto-fire)

 

So, more defense, and only 0.24eps more investment...

 

But, wait, there's more. You've slotted your attacks for EndRed alone, no accuracy... So, we'll put you at that 75% Hit Rate. Against even con, my 1 Acc is 95%... So, out of every 20 attacks, you waste 5, and I waste 1. Let's assume you're firing attacks optimally for DPS.

 

Your slotting of 1 Rech, 2 EndRed (side note, your Recharge nearly nullifies the effect of one of your EndRed, due to faster recharge):

Charged Brawl (CB): 1.17eps

Thunder Strike (TS): 0.46eps

Chain Induction (CI): 0.59eps

DPS -> CI > CB > TS > CB > Brawl (B) > CB > B > repeat for 2.22eps and 28.56DPS... But you've got no accuracy, so that'll reduce your DPS down to 21.42

 

My slotting:

CB: 1.10eps

Jacobs Ladder (JL): 0.81eps

TS: 0.43eps

CI: 0.55eps

DPS -> CI > JL > CB > TS > CB > B > JL > CB > B > CI > CB > B > repeat  for 2.92eps... but 52.33DPS!!! Even with the 5% miss chance, still 49.71DPS. Over DOUBLE what you're dealing.

 

So, running all out, 2.85eps vs 3.79eps netting out to -0.31eps vs -1.32eps. Your way is more end efficient, you're not wrong there... however, 23-31% better defenses, and 232% better damage... And dead mobs deal 0 damage, which ups your survivability even more.

 

This game has been out for 15 years. There's been theory crafting on it for those 15 years. You're not coming up with a new problem, you're trying to solve it from the wrong angle.

 

But, you do you. If you're having fun, go for it. But, maybe, just maybe, use your second build, try what I made, and see what you think.

[Valicious]

man, lot of posts to respond to lol

 

It sounds like your friend with the endurance problems was running solo.  I don't solo ever.  Let us assume that my character gets perfect accuracy and can never miss.  If my end regen can't keep up with my end loss i will lose endurance as i fight.  If the fight goes on long enough I will run out of endurance.  Let's further assume that with my now perfect accuracy I do 2x the damage I used to. That means our group fights will be a little faster.  It won't fix me losing endurance as I fight though.

 

as for the leadership toggles i'd agree with tactics however maneuvers and/or other defensive toggles are pretty mandatory if you don't want to constantly be forced to use defensive inspirations.  You can read up more on defense here https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Defense_Effectiveness I found this to be very helpful.

 

thanks for taking the time to suggest a build! so looking at the recharge time and end cost of what i'm using vs what your suggesting the attacks will be roughly the same cost over time but the fights would end a little sooner.  I'd still have issues with endurance though.  especially after doublling my passive end/sec from toggles.  that'd be...not good.  as for why maneuvers or other defensive toggles that link above is why :)

 

difficulty varies as I usually join someone elses group.  mobs are at least yellow, sometimes purple.  Set bonuses could def help out a little so thanks for that idea!

 

thanks for the taunt tip! and stam is 6 slotted because i slotted everything for minimum endurance drain/maximum endurance regen. I only run around with sprint atm and i toggle it off in combat

 

I didn't think about the end buff from self heal.  that's a really awesome tip ty!

 

there's not def in my defensive skills because i was running out of end.  might be able to put def instead of end red once i pickup self heal for the end boost.  we'll see :)

 

The underlying problem here is you can build top tier characters to buff, debuff, cc, heal and dps that EASILY don't run out of endurance.  But building a highly defensive tank, even with an absurd amount of end red and end mod still has end issues.  Let's say I drop tactics(which i should).  that nets me back .39/s which is pretty big.  however i still need to add 2 more defensive toggles to get my defense up where it needs to actually be in addition to switching all end reduction on defensive abilities to def boosts.  those 2 extra toggles from power pools puts me right back at the same endurance cost per second. my passive end/sec would also double.  so atm, i'm forced to be kind of half tanky?

 

I think It's doable at 50.  I was planning on getting soul mastery which has a -acc and -tohit which would then let me drop a defensive toggle or hopefully more?  plus i'll have more slots to play with. Right now though, at my level, it's awful trying to spec as a tank.

 

I don't think making a strong tank build super restrictive and almost impossible to achieve when low-mid level is ok.  It should allow for more flexability like all the other non-tank builds.  That is why my feedback on this is that they really need to look at end costs for defensive buffs.

You're building it how you want, this is true... However, you're building it counter-intuitively to how the character would be better played.

 

You don't have perfect accuracy, and you never will. You get a 75% chance to hit, base. Therefore, most slot some accuracy into an attack, as the attack does nothing if it doesn't hit. You then slot Damage into attacks, because you want them to actually do something. I've found that slotting the 2nd slot as an EndRed helps a lot on Brutes and/or other toons that I'm constantly spamming powers, as that allows me to spam longer. I slot Damage after that, much like I showed you.

 

I understand you're using that guide to help you... You will get BETTER returns on your slotting if you slot for Defense over EndRed in your toggles, and DROP Maneuvers entirely...

For example:

Your slotting of 3 EndRed into FF/FS/Evasion/Maneuv and PB, and 1 Def into Agile/Dodge---

22.9% M/R Defense

16.2% AoE Defense

Net +1.93eps with 0.63eps drain (with PB on auto-fire)

 

My suggested slotting to you:

28.1% M/R Defense

21.4% AoE Defense

Net +1.60eps with 0.87eps drain (PB on auto-fire)

 

So, more defense, and only 0.24eps more investment...

 

But, wait, there's more. You've slotted your attacks for EndRed alone, no accuracy... So, we'll put you at that 75% Hit Rate. Against even con, my 1 Acc is 95%... So, out of every 20 attacks, you waste 5, and I waste 1. Let's assume you're firing attacks optimally for DPS.

 

Your slotting of 1 Rech, 2 EndRed (side note, your Recharge nearly nullifies the effect of one of your EndRed, due to faster recharge):

Charged Brawl (CB): 1.17eps

Thunder Strike (TS): 0.46eps

Chain Induction (CI): 0.59eps

DPS -> CI > CB > TS > CB > Brawl (B) > CB > B > repeat for 2.22eps and 28.56DPS... But you've got no accuracy, so that'll reduce your DPS down to 21.42

 

My slotting:

CB: 1.10eps

Jacobs Ladder (JL): 0.81eps

TS: 0.43eps

CI: 0.55eps

DPS -> CI > JL > CB > TS > CB > B > JL > CB > B > CI > CB > B > repeat  for 2.92eps... but 52.33DPS!!! Even with the 5% miss chance, still 49.71DPS. Over DOUBLE what you're dealing.

 

So, running all out, 2.85eps vs 3.79eps netting out to -0.31eps vs -1.32eps. Your way is more end efficient, you're not wrong there... however, 23-31% better defenses, and 232% better damage... And dead mobs deal 0 damage, which ups your survivability even more.

 

This game has been out for 15 years. There's been theory crafting on it for those 15 years. You're not coming up with a new problem, you're trying to solve it from the wrong angle.

 

But, you do you. If you're having fun, go for it. But, maybe, just maybe, use your second build, try what I made, and see what you think.

 

right, those are all solid suggestions.  and yes, there's nothing new about the game.  i'm giving my feedback and pointing out an obvious(to me) oversight in the game design.  with this particular build you have to pay a base .78 e/s just to get started and that doesn't put you nearly high enough in defense by itself.

 

everything not a tank = 0 e/s to get started

tank = quite a bit

 

i was playing my corr for a couple hours earlier.  ran out of end 1 time.  no end red in attacks. almost no end red at all.  think there's like 3 in non-attack things.

 

SO

 

my opinion is that we need to stop endurance starving tanks.  if the devs disagree that's ok.  it's not my game.  it's not an opinion though when i say SR and other tank pools cause tanks to have a higher endurance cost to play their role.  that is just a simple fact.  and my feedback on it is...nerf it(or buff whichever way you wanna look at it lol)

[Stealthrider]

You keep saying you're listening to other peoples' advice and knowledge, then claim your own truths anyway. So I'm going to lay it out for you as straight as I can.

 

Your build is bad. You think there is a problem because you do not understand how to build a character, tank or otherwise. You do not properly understand the resources that you based your build decisions on.

 

EM/SR should not have endurance problems other than from abusing AoEs, but you've built in such a way that it is inevitable you would have problems. So let me go over your build decisions, one at a time, and tell you precisely why they are wrong--not just "your opinion," but flatly incorrect.

 

1) Six slotting Stamina for EndMod.

Thanks to ED, three of those slots are absolutely useless to you. These slots should be put into attacks instead, which I'll get into in a moment.

 

2) Slotting Sprint.

Sprint is not meant for in-combat use at all. "Having to toggle it off in combat" is a non-issue, in the same way having to toggle off Afterburner in combat is a non-issue.

 

3) Maneuvers and Tactics.

Tanks and Brutes do not need either of these, but Super Reflexes ones ESPECIALLY do not need them. Super Reflexes caps its defenses naturally without even using IO sets. Maneuvers is taken specifically in sets that need extensive help to cap their defenses (IE, Resist-based sets). These are not useful powers to you and are draining your Endurance for no benefit. You only think there is a benefit because of how poorly you slotted your Defense powers.

 

4) 3x End Reduction in each toggle.

If you actually looked at the Endurance cost per toggle of your powers, you'd see how ridiculous this slotting is. When I first saw this thread, I expected your build to be Titan Weapons/Dark Aura, in which case I understood your frustration as they're both End-heavy sets (but would have mentioned that combining them is not a good choice), but you're playing extremely End-light sets. You're getting almost no benefit at all from slotting more than one EndRedux in your SR toggles. None of your toggles cost more than 0.26 End/Sec base. That is absolutely nothing.

 

5) No Acc or Damage in your attacks, Recharge instead.

Of course your'e going to have Endurance issues if you're A) Missing your attacks, B) Dealing no damage with your attacks and C) Recharging those attacks faster so you can use them more often. Slot your attacks 1Acc/2Dam/1End and your Endurance problems will disappear.

 

6) Your Defensive powers have no Defense enhancements.

This is the major problem with your build. You should be nearly capped on Defense by now with just your toggles and passives, but you haven't slotted them at all. That's why you're using Aid Self so often, too, which is a major End drain and not meant for regular in-combat use. Slot your toggles and passives with 3x Defense IOs and you'll get hit less, need  to heal less, and be able to actually drop the Leadership pool, which as mentioned is worthless to you.

 

7) You're level 22.

Of course you're going to have Endurance problems. Everyone has Endurance problems in the early 20s. Your attack chain isn't efficient yet, you're not fully slotted, you don't have auxiliary effects like Performance Shifter, Miracle, etc running (though you can start on those). The only real problem here is that you're trying to do more than you can handle. Take it slow. Pace yourself. You don't need to spam your AoEs over and over and over again, on cooldown. Put Brawl on auto and use it between every attack. Pop blues like everyone else does. You're making the game harder on yourself by trying to do all of the things before you're ready. Stop that.

 

 

If you seriously think that tanks have it worse than any other AT in terms of Endurance, and this thought is based on having so many endurance-heavy toggles despite playing SR, you should never play a VEAT, ever. You have no idea what Endurance problems are. None at all.

[HelenCarnate]

Here I thought this was going to be a thread about /Dark Armor

[Errants]

man, lot of posts to respond to lol

 

It sounds like your friend with the endurance problems was running solo.  I don't solo ever.  Let us assume that my character gets perfect accuracy and can never miss.  If my end regen can't keep up with my end loss i will lose endurance as i fight.  If the fight goes on long enough I will run out of endurance.  Let's further assume that with my now perfect accuracy I do 2x the damage I used to. That means our group fights will be a little faster.  It won't fix me losing endurance as I fight though.

 

as for the leadership toggles i'd agree with tactics however maneuvers and/or other defensive toggles are pretty mandatory if you don't want to constantly be forced to use defensive inspirations.  You can read up more on defense here https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Defense_Effectiveness I found this to be very helpful.

 

thanks for taking the time to suggest a build! so looking at the recharge time and end cost of what i'm using vs what your suggesting the attacks will be roughly the same cost over time but the fights would end a little sooner.  I'd still have issues with endurance though.  especially after doublling my passive end/sec from toggles.  that'd be...not good.  as for why maneuvers or other defensive toggles that link above is why :)

 

difficulty varies as I usually join someone elses group.  mobs are at least yellow, sometimes purple.  Set bonuses could def help out a little so thanks for that idea!

 

thanks for the taunt tip! and stam is 6 slotted because i slotted everything for minimum endurance drain/maximum endurance regen. I only run around with sprint atm and i toggle it off in combat

 

I didn't think about the end buff from self heal.  that's a really awesome tip ty!

 

there's not def in my defensive skills because i was running out of end.  might be able to put def instead of end red once i pickup self heal for the end boost.  we'll see :)

 

The underlying problem here is you can build top tier characters to buff, debuff, cc, heal and dps that EASILY don't run out of endurance.  But building a highly defensive tank, even with an absurd amount of end red and end mod still has end issues.  Let's say I drop tactics(which i should).  that nets me back .39/s which is pretty big.  however i still need to add 2 more defensive toggles to get my defense up where it needs to actually be in addition to switching all end reduction on defensive abilities to def boosts.  those 2 extra toggles from power pools puts me right back at the same endurance cost per second. my passive end/sec would also double.  so atm, i'm forced to be kind of half tanky?

 

I think It's doable at 50.  I was planning on getting soul mastery which has a -acc and -tohit which would then let me drop a defensive toggle or hopefully more?  plus i'll have more slots to play with. Right now though, at my level, it's awful trying to spec as a tank.

 

I don't think making a strong tank build super restrictive and almost impossible to achieve when low-mid level is ok.  It should allow for more flexability like all the other non-tank builds.  That is why my feedback on this is that they really need to look at end costs for defensive buffs.

You're building it how you want, this is true... However, you're building it counter-intuitively to how the character would be better played.

 

You don't have perfect accuracy, and you never will. You get a 75% chance to hit, base. Therefore, most slot some accuracy into an attack, as the attack does nothing if it doesn't hit. You then slot Damage into attacks, because you want them to actually do something. I've found that slotting the 2nd slot as an EndRed helps a lot on Brutes and/or other toons that I'm constantly spamming powers, as that allows me to spam longer. I slot Damage after that, much like I showed you.

 

I understand you're using that guide to help you... You will get BETTER returns on your slotting if you slot for Defense over EndRed in your toggles, and DROP Maneuvers entirely...

For example:

Your slotting of 3 EndRed into FF/FS/Evasion/Maneuv and PB, and 1 Def into Agile/Dodge---

22.9% M/R Defense

16.2% AoE Defense

Net +1.93eps with 0.63eps drain (with PB on auto-fire)

 

My suggested slotting to you:

28.1% M/R Defense

21.4% AoE Defense

Net +1.60eps with 0.87eps drain (PB on auto-fire)

 

So, more defense, and only 0.24eps more investment...

 

But, wait, there's more. You've slotted your attacks for EndRed alone, no accuracy... So, we'll put you at that 75% Hit Rate. Against even con, my 1 Acc is 95%... So, out of every 20 attacks, you waste 5, and I waste 1. Let's assume you're firing attacks optimally for DPS.

 

Your slotting of 1 Rech, 2 EndRed (side note, your Recharge nearly nullifies the effect of one of your EndRed, due to faster recharge):

Charged Brawl (CB): 1.17eps

Thunder Strike (TS): 0.46eps

Chain Induction (CI): 0.59eps

DPS -> CI > CB > TS > CB > Brawl (B) > CB > B > repeat for 2.22eps and 28.56DPS... But you've got no accuracy, so that'll reduce your DPS down to 21.42

 

My slotting:

CB: 1.10eps

Jacobs Ladder (JL): 0.81eps

TS: 0.43eps

CI: 0.55eps

DPS -> CI > JL > CB > TS > CB > B > JL > CB > B > CI > CB > B > repeat  for 2.92eps... but 52.33DPS!!! Even with the 5% miss chance, still 49.71DPS. Over DOUBLE what you're dealing.

 

So, running all out, 2.85eps vs 3.79eps netting out to -0.31eps vs -1.32eps. Your way is more end efficient, you're not wrong there... however, 23-31% better defenses, and 232% better damage... And dead mobs deal 0 damage, which ups your survivability even more.

 

This game has been out for 15 years. There's been theory crafting on it for those 15 years. You're not coming up with a new problem, you're trying to solve it from the wrong angle.

 

But, you do you. If you're having fun, go for it. But, maybe, just maybe, use your second build, try what I made, and see what you think.

 

right, those are all solid suggestions.  and yes, there's nothing new about the game.  i'm giving my feedback and pointing out an obvious(to me) oversight in the game design.  with this particular build you have to pay a base .78 e/s just to get started and that doesn't put you nearly high enough in defense by itself.

 

everything not a tank = 0 e/s to get started

tank = quite a bit

 

i was playing my corr for a couple hours earlier.  ran out of end 1 time.  no end red in attacks. almost no end red at all.  think there's like 3 in non-attack things.

 

SO

 

my opinion is that we need to stop endurance starving tanks.  if the devs disagree that's ok.  it's not my game.  it's not an opinion though when i say SR and other tank pools cause tanks to have a higher endurance cost to play their role.  that is just a simple fact.  and my feedback on it is...nerf it(or buff whichever way you wanna look at it lol)

 

It sounds like maybe you just shouldn't play Brutes... Or Tanks, Scrappers, Stalkers, HEAT's, VEAT's, or Sentinels. Because all of those AT's have a "gateway" just to get started, and clearly can't compare to Corruptors, Blasters, Defenders, Controllers, Dominators, or Masterminds - As none of those AT's have defensive toggles that they need to run in order to play the game.

 

From what it seems over here, you're not looking for answers, you're looking for someone to tell you, "You're right." You're not, though, not on the front you're fighting, so you pro'ly won't get what you're looking for. Good luck, the advice is there.

[Myrmidon]

Get both Numina and Miracle procs on every character that you own.

[RussHood]

Man, imagine how hard this guy would cry if he ran a build with a Toggle:Pbaoe dmg 

Seriously. You need to stop blaming the game and either look for more specific help in the brute section, or play a different class like blaster that doesnt usually have toggles

[Galactiman]

A lot of hostility in this thread. Anyway, OP has kind of stumbled into something that is a real issue and that is the disparity in recovery between defensive powersets. Some sets get a large recovery boost, an AoE end drain, or both while some sets get zilch. And there seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. It certainly has no discernable balance motivation, because the sets that get endurance management abilities don't consume more endurance than the other sets.

 

I say normalize recovery across the sets like they did with Blasters. Hell, it may have been something they were planning to do and just never got the chance before the game was cancelled.

[Nixeras]

A lot of hostility in this thread. Anyway, OP has kind of stumbled into something that is a real issue and that is the disparity in recovery between defensive powersets. Some sets get a large recovery boost, an AoE end drain, or both while some sets get zilch. And there seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. It certainly has no discernable balance motivation, because the sets that get endurance management abilities don't consume more endurance than the other sets.

 

I say normalize recovery across the sets like they did with Blasters. Hell, it may have been something they were planning to do and just never got the chance before the game was cancelled.

 

Pretty sure the only hostility in the thread was when multiple people explained to him what the problem with his build was, and instead of saying "Oh you're right, I've made a mistake." Like a normal adult should, he's gone "NUH UH, IT'S THE GAMES FAULT." Which is kind of weird because he's even acknowledged that they're giving good advice.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Ok to start we are talking about a Brute correct? Brutes are not tanks, they are not meant to be the meat shield. For red side based ATs that was the MMs intended function.  I know many will argue this but it was stated many times by devs on the old forums in threads like these over the years.

 

So on to the power sets. Not every primary will feel optimal or even functional with every 2ndary. At least not without experience in building outside the box with IO sets to fill gaps. For example most would argue Dark melee is really the only truly good partner to SR  due to its heal which is SRs biggest issue not end recovery but healing when overwhelmed.

 

SR has the biggest flaw of all sets for a tank, because SRs biggest weakest is more attacks coming at you. Nature of the beast when your set is pure def as the more attacks means more chances for lucky hits to slip through. My first 50 scrapper back in the day was SR, and I survived the loss of perma Elude, ED, and in the final era of coh was able to solo decimate the turrets in a BAF with him while the rest of the team focused on the initial street sweeping.

 

SR is a great set but takes some thought to make work, frankly in the pre free fitness era I would only take the autos until after 20 and fit in my travel powers etc before then. Now I was kat/sr and also used Parry which  is a great def boost for melee and lethal attacks which cover quite alot.

 

Personally I never much cared for the elec melee set felt it was just added more for flavor for those who wanted it. Its not unplayable or anything just didnt ahve enough oomph for my taste.

 

As others have said attack powers early on need at least 3 slots, an acc and 2 dmg for most but swapping one of those dmg for end reduction is fine if you really want it. Brutes big dmg comes from rage, lots of cheap little fast hits build it up fast.

 

As most of us are rebuilding old cahracters from our glory days we are taking every trick we know to keep builds feeling competent while recovering our lost powers. So listen to us.

 

Id suggest a more easy to use for  new player build for your first 50 so you can use them to finance harder to start builds.

[SwitchFade]

I hope this helps, I'll make it quick and then direct you to the tank forums, and then brute forums.

 

1. Brutes are not tanks. If you try, your brute will suffer end issues. Why? They do tons more damage, so there's balance.

 

2. Leadership pool is horrendous pre level 35, and wholly unnecessary. If you believe you need it to be a tank... See point 1.

 

3. Brutes kill very fast.... So they won't die. Why? Please return to point 1

 

4. Playstule, like user error, is 90% of your problems, and your build is kinda (sorry) borked. Why? See point 1, and visit the brute and tank forums.

 

Oh also, I really love mids hero designer, and I highly recommend it.

[Erydanus]

Anyway, OP has kind of stumbled into something that is a real issue and that is the disparity in recovery between defensive powersets.

 

No not at all. The issue is a level 27 character only has THREE primary powerset attacks and taunt, and is not slotting them with any accuracy because he's running Tactics. I wouldn't be surprised with that few attacks if he has Sands of Mu or other temp powers on his tray for all-the-time use instead of as low level filler attacks. (Note that at newbie levels, you get a starter accuracy buff so temp powers like that actually hit pretty well... but then later they're more of a crapshoot). He has diluted his build with extra junk that he doesn't need instead of taking more cornerstone powers and wasted slots that would make his powers potent and effective and end the fight before he runs out of endurance. He stated that he DOES NOT SOLO so why even touch Medicine at 27? I guess it's fine to start working on it since every build has room for some options.

 

I think I covered the problem of not doing enough damage leading to exhaustion but I guess I'm going to have to lay out what should have been done. Mind you when I had an Elec Brute I also took Jacob's Ladder but I know some people just don't like cones so I went ahead and skipped it. But I did pick up Havoc Punch because when you're down to 1 guy or working on a boss using nothing but AoE is just not going to work. It should be maybe CB, HP, CB, Thunderstrike, rinse, repeat.

 

Level 1: Charged Brawl Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(3), Dmg-I(3), Dmg-I(11), RechRdx-I(23)

Level 1: Focused Fighting EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(7), DefBuff-I(25)

Level 2: Havoc Punch Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(5), Dmg-I(5), Dmg-I(13), Dmg-I(15), RechRdx-I(17)

Level 4: Focused Senses EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(11), DefBuff-I(25)

Level 6: Build Up RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(7)

Level 8: Thunder Strike Acc-I(A), Dmg-I(9), Dmg-I(9), EndRdx-I(13), RechRdx-I(15), Dmg-I(17)

Level 10: Practiced Brawler EndRdx-I(A)

Level 12: Taunt RechRdx-I(A)

Level 14: Agile DefBuff-I(A)

Level 16: Dodge DefBuff-I(A)

Level 18: Chain Induction Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(19), Dmg-I(19), Dmg-I(21), Dmg-I(21), RechRdx-I(23)

Level 20: Evasion EndRdx-I(A)

Level 22: Fly Flight-I(A)

Level 24: Injection RechRdx-I(A)

Level 26: Aid Self Heal-I(A)

 

Level 2: Swift Run-I(A)

Level 2: Health Heal-I(A)

Level 2: Hurdle Jump-I(A)

Level 2: Stamina EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(27), EndMod-I(27)

------------

 

At this point I kinda think the mods should move this thread over to the Brute forum, if any come along.

 

 

 

 

 

[Schwartz]

I disagree about Brutes not being tanks but... that is because I play a Dark/Dark Brute. The idea of the holy trinity was never really implemented into CoH, some basic principles were used such as control, CC, damage soak, etc. Tanking is CC'ing a single or multiple targets to hit them instead of you. That being said, even at low/mid level play this is where your suppose to learn how to play, when to toggle, what to toggle, enhancements, sets, and learn what style of play you prefer.

 

Most Dark Brutes will understand the endurance struggles. I do not have them as severely with my other Brutes but I do miss Dark Armor defenses. Other Brutes are more offensive but I will take Dark Armor over increase offensive any day. 

[Rylas]

OP right now:

 

[subbacultchas]

I have some corruptors and dominators that would beg to differ about end not being an issue, even with perma-dom on the dominator. Every character I have runs minimum 2-3 def/res toggles, including the squishies. I've found that toggles take a lot of end, but not near as much compared to the amount of attacks you perform. But the bigger issue I see here, is the underperformance of the build; you need too many attacks to make a kill and have too much recharge with them.

 

Looking at the build provided, there needs to be more damage/acc so the attacks you make actually perform well, versus the endred/recharge they have now. You don't slot for recharge when you're having end issue normally, it exacerbates it. That's one reason taking hasten at an early level can put you right into end issues almost immediately. Take the advice here, reslot your powers and drop those excessive toggles, these folks know what they are saying.

[Valicious]

Firstly, thank you to everyone who chimed in with helpful suggestions.  Here's what I did to work around the end issue.  panacea + performance shifter is good but not good enough.  The most costly endurance things in the older build were my attacks.  I needed attacks I didn't have to spam if i wanted to have a lot of def.  So after some thinking I decided to make Spines/SR.  Reason being spines has a huge aoe that i can use to aggro everything.  currently lvl 29 w/ 34.56% def and does not run out of end(that'll go up after a few more lvls).  Only downside is I don't attack super often which is pretty boring lol. 

 

Still standing firm on my "You shouldn't be penalized for wanting to tank" aka, defensive toggles cost too much. 

[Nic Mercy]

Still standing firm on my "You shouldn't be penalized for wanting to tank" aka, defensive toggles cost too much.

 

No one is penalized for wanting to tank and defensive toggles don't cost "too much". You just made some questionable decisions with your build, and instead of accepting that and trying to use the advice given here, you completely abandoned the character. I also suspect that your new character isn't having endurance woes because you implemented some of the advice here with that character.

 

In the interest of being helpful however, here is a level 22 EM/SR Brute build using only SO's that serves as an example of what such a character might look like with advice from this thread put to use:

 

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=917&c=402&a=804&f=HEX&dc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

 

You'll notice that this build has manageable endurance, adequate defenses for its level and everything necessary to tank as a Brute.

 

 

 

Now here's the same build at 50 tricked out to the nines with Incarnate stuff, IO's and some judicious enhancement booster applications:

 

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1589&c=715&a=1430&f=HEX&dc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

 

Basic Advice:

 

Don't leave powers like sprint, ninja run, super jump, super speed, etc, running when not needed. Especially at low levels when your end recovery can't handle it.

The Leadership toggles are end hungry monsters and should not be taken if you don't need them (and an SR Brute doesn't)

If a build does require the Leadership powers, they should be put off until your endurance recovery can handle them.

On any character, every non-autohit attack should have, at a minimum, one SO's worth of accuracy slotted into it. Even if you have Tactics.

If you're having endurance issues early on, slotting recharge to attack faster makes things worse not better.

If you want to tank with a set that doesn't have a damage aura (like SR), take Taunt.

 

 

[Solvernia]

The game and powersets are designed and balanced around SO's, NOT IO's, temporary powers/buffs, nor incarnates. Offering these as a solution isn't actually a solution, it's applying a band-aid to a bigger problem of either improper builds or poor balance. One can be rectified by the player, and is more easily done with constructive advice, versus "wait until 50, or go play the market!"

 

The Panacea proc is available at level 7, and Performance Shifter at 27. They're both probably going to be around 5-10 mil, which is easily affordable (run a couple task forces, takes you a couple hours with a PUG.)

 

Recovery Serum is 50k for 5 charges from the P2W vendor, and you can stack up to 50 charges (I've never run out, ever.)

 

Between these two IOs and one temporary power, you will never run out of endurance, ever, even as Dark Armor with all your toggles up.

 

Telling you how to easily solve your endurance problems is absolutely constructive advice. You know what isn't constructive? Strawman attacks.

[Nic Mercy]

The game and powersets are designed and balanced around SO's, NOT IO's, temporary powers/buffs, nor incarnates. Offering these as a solution isn't actually a solution, it's applying a band-aid to a bigger problem of either improper builds or poor balance. One can be rectified by the player, and is more easily done with constructive advice, versus "wait until 50, or go play the market!"

 

The Panacea proc is available at level 7, and Performance Shifter at 27. They're both probably going to be around 5-10 mil, which is easily affordable (run a couple task forces, takes you a couple hours with a PUG.)

 

Recovery Serum is 50k for 5 charges from the P2W vendor, and you can stack up to 50 charges (I've never run out, ever.)

 

Between these two IOs and one temporary power, you will never run out of endurance, ever, even as Dark Armor with all your toggles up.

 

Telling you how to easily solve your endurance problems is absolutely constructive advice. You know what isn't constructive? Strawman attacks.

 

Correction:

 

Pancea proc                    = level 7

Miracle proc                    = level17

Performance Shifter proc = level 18

Numina's proc                  = level 27

[Moka]

To offer my two cents, I feel all sides have a point. On one hand, a characters endurance problems can be fixed through IOs that are obtainable at an early level. On the other hand, I find the resource Management in City of Heroes to be absolutely archaic and a relic of it's time. While I think the game needs some form of endurance management as it is written very heavily into the way the game's combat flows, I feel as if your inherent toggles in a powerset should  not cost endurance unless they are something that does damage or a status effect to a foe. I do think power pool toggles should still cost endurance, though.

 

In all honesty, it doesn't feel very "super" to punch three times and get tired, and I feel like the endurance system is a lot of the reason the free to play model didn't bring in enough subscribers.

 

Contrary to my own point, City of Heroes, at the end of the day, is more a visual pen and paper and collect-a-thon than it is a fighting game, so I guess it would only be par the course to expect specific enhancements to fill in that problem.

[Solvernia]

Correction:

 

Pancea proc                    = level 7

Miracle proc                    = level17

Performance Shifter proc = level 18

Numina's proc                  = level 27

 

Miracle and Numina aren't worth the slots in my personal experience, but hey, Performance Shifter being level 17 just makes it so you can slot it even earlier.

 

 

 

Panacea is actually even better than Performance Shifter, although it's unique.

 

P.S. Tactics is absolutely worthless unless you PVP or fight nothing but Night Widows forever. If there's ever a situation in which you need a 10% to-hit buff and/or extra perception, just pop a yellow insp, that's why they exist.

[HelenCarnate]

To offer my two cents, I feel all sides have a point. On one hand, a characters endurance problems can be fixed through IOs that are obtainable at an early level. On the other hand, I find the resource Management in City of Heroes to be absolutely archaic and a relic of it's time. While I think the game needs some form of endurance management as it is written very heavily into the way the game's combat flows, I feel as if your inherent toggles in a powerset should  not cost endurance unless they are something that does damage or a status effect to a foe. I do think power pool toggles should still cost endurance, though.

 

In all honesty, it doesn't feel very "super" to punch three times and get tired, and I feel like the endurance system is a lot of the reason the free to play model didn't bring in enough subscribers.

 

Contrary to my own point, City of Heroes, at the end of the day, is more a visual pen and paper and collect-a-thon than it is a fighting game, so I guess it would only be par the course to expect specific enhancements to fill in that problem.

 

If you are punching 3 times and run out of endurance it is your own fault. The only way (outside of fighting sappers or Mu) is to do like the OP and have terrible slotting combined with running extra toggles.  Dark armor is the only set that needs work with endurance and that could be fixed with the change of 1 power. The other sets are fine.

[Nic Mercy]

Miracle and Numina aren't worth the slots in my personal experience

 

Blasphemy!

 

He he I automatically slot all four on every character as soon as they are high enough. It makes end issues non-existent for me while leveling and beyond.