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28 minutes ago, arcane said:

Fewer choices = higher cost / tradeoff per choice = more challenging building. So disagree.

 

Disagree

 

More choices, same power slots, same enhancement slots, more challenging

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3 minutes ago, Gobbledygook said:

 

Disagree

 

More choices, same power slots, same enhancement slots, more challenging

If you insist on picking up Hasten on every build, and:

 

- in one universe, that costs you a power slot and a couple of enhancement slots, and, 

 

- meanwhile, in another universe, that costs you a power slot, a couple of enhancement slots, AND the opportunity to pick another pool,

 

the latter set of challenges is objectively greater. You are confusing number of options with cost, and cost is what yields the challenge.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tyrannical said:

Nobody said anything about sending people to Thunderspy, and I already said I'm partial to the idea of swapping your ancillary for a 5th power pool.

 

And I dunno what having an RP server has anything to do with this kinda change, why should an RP server receive exclusive updates?

Its implied by your mention of another server. While you did reiterate TSpy's mission statement, the personality of the server is what is most important. They all attract players for different reasons. "Creativity" is not why people go to TSpy.

 

Even as a counter argument that a 5th pool pick is equivalent to any design choices TSpy is disingenuous. 

 

Seeing the OP clarify their position, I have no issue making their first travel power pick not count against their pool pick (granted the player doesn't choose another power in the pool). If there is some other concern with pool picks, a simple solution is to make the concerning choices mutually exclusive much like the origin pools. This doesn't address the full concern but alleviates one of their "issues"

 

 

 

Edited by 5099y_74c05
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There are times losing or lowering costs is a good thing. Having to hope your SG mates scrape together enough for your base builder to add a desk *and* chair? That's a cost that was decidedly limiting. Losing the need for Prestige to base build (on top of other changes between SCORE and here) was good - it really did allow creativity to practically explode in some instances.

 

Losing or lowering the cost of "do I take this power / use this pool" like this though? I'm less for it, and don't honestly buy the creativity argument. That has a direct impact on gameplay and the overall power / difficulty of the game. About the only way I'd go for this is if it opened up at 35 - with the cost of not taking a patron/ancillary pool.  Otherwise, people have been working around this for years, even on live, and if nothing else I'd say that's made them more creative... even when going for "theme." IOs also lend themselves to this, and the P2W vendor is just icing. Have a stealthy character you can't fit the pool in for? IOs in an extra free sprint will get there. Trying to fit in a travel power? Several free - though unslottable - options exist, as well as paid (and fairly long duration) temp powers - and so forth.

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36 minutes ago, arcane said:

If you insist on picking up Hasten on every build, and:

 

- in one universe, that costs you a power slot and a couple of enhancement slots, and, 

 

- meanwhile, in another universe, that costs you a power slot, a couple of enhancement slots, AND the opportunity to pick another pool,

 

the latter set of challenges is objectively greater. You are confusing number of options with cost, and cost is what yields the challenge.

 

I don't. Thanks for assuming, though.

You know how the saying goes about that, makes an a-, well, you get it.

Especially when you do that about the ENTIRE player base.

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So what pool choices are the egregious ones?

 

What other power besides Hasten is as consequential?  In context of builds this specific power is equivalent to seven purple sets; concur its an outlier. People skipping it aren't going to take it as a fifth choice.

 

What is next? DEF? Weave is the power offering the highest DEF is equivalent to about two IO sets of DEF bonsuses. This choice requires a commitment of two other choices from the pool. Other pool picks offer about half the value ranking it equivalent to one IO set worth of bonus.

 

So what is next in the "overpower" pool picks? Curious to hear the specifics.

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16 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

@5099y_74c05 what I was implying is that Thunderspy should be a cautionary tale about how testing is important.

 

 

What?  You don't think giving all Dual Blades attacks an additional toxic damage DoT component is a swell idea?!

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If hasten and combat jumping weren’t things I’d suggest making travel pools (or rather one travel pool) not count towards the limit. But I’d also like it if (one) origin pool pick didn’t count towards the limits either for conceptual reasons.

 

But I also do understand some of the concerns others have, I feel like this is one of those issues best approaches after we do something about the game’s difficulty balances. Which, even if we had the live team working on things will admittedly be a long long time.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

@5099y_74c05 what I was implying is that Thunderspy should be a cautionary tale about how testing is important.

In context of this cluster, talking about a change in design precludes us from later testing the idea how?

 

 

Edited by 5099y_74c05
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1 hour ago, Tyrannical said:

@5099y_74c05 what I was implying is that Thunderspy should be a cautionary tale about how testing is important.

As I tell my teenager, what you say matters.

Especially in a format where we can't pick up any cues fromy body movemont, inflection of your voice, or facial expression.

 

Take this case for example, you're not saying, let's test it and see how it effects things.

You're flat out saying no, this is why, there's no need to test because powergamers would abuse this, and make a game that is already easy because of power creep, IO's, Incarnate abilities possibly easier for a percentage of the playerbase, while blocking creativity for the rest of the playerbase. Like the roleplayers. On a roleplaying game.

No need to test it, I said so. Look what they did on Thunderspy. Even though I know that won't happen here because our devs DO put things on test and DO listen to player feedback, especially when provided evidence from folks such as Bopper and GalaxyBrain. 

 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

In context of this cluster, talking about a change in design precludes us from later testing the idea how?

 

11 hours ago, Gobbledygook said:

Take this case for example, you're not saying, let's test it and see how it effects things.

You're flat out saying no, this is why, there's no need to test because powergamers would abuse this, and make a game that is already easy because of power creep, IO's, Incarnate abilities possibly easier for a percentage of the playerbase, while blocking creativity for the rest of the playerbase.

 

Consider the following; do you really think that a suggestion as frequent as this hasn't received some sort of preliminary testing already?

 

The scenario has played out dozens of times prior to this, and despite the popularity of the topic we've yet to see it gain any traction. It stands to reason that it has already been deliberated and tested internally and the HC team concluded that it's not something they're willing to explore further given the amount of resistance to the idea. 

 

The reason I draw comparison to Thunderspy is because testing to see if it works is different to testing to see if it's well received, and it seems you're more focused on the former. As I said, Homecoming has no inconsequential amount of feedback on this particular subject, and they use that to decide whether a project like this deserves further testing, so chalking this up to "blocking creativity" is just disingenuous.

 

I'd also like to point out that I never said no to the idea, I just provided a rationale for why it hasn't been implemented yet, figured I'd bring that up since "what you say matters".

 

 

Edited by Tyrannical
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Not interested in the BS drama of people trying to reading my intent. I'm reading the OPs suggestion without presumption and I dont see this as an either or issue as its being painted. Just like Incarnates or IO sets if you don't like them simply don't use them. I'm not ignorant to the fact that things get abused.

 

I see this as a vehicle to attract players interested in customizing further than what the current configuration allows. Its a very common theme for new players asking about the various server clusters. Nothing more nothing less.

 

I really don't know how often the suggestion has been made previously. It was at the top of the suggestion list when I looked at it. Since I don't live here in this subsection its the first time I'm hearing about this. Even so it would have been pertinent for the OP to be aware of the previous suggestions, possibly even productive to know what specific game breaking five pool combs are of concern. He clarified his position and wants a "free" travel power (it will still cost him a slot) not count against his pool pick. The suggestion to utilize P2W is a good stop gap but doesn't address his ask directly.

 

I know free Fitness was controversial and full of doomsayers and they were wrong. That change netted us 4 slots if I recall correctly. This suggestion asking for access to a fifth pool seems mild and nowhere near as consequential as that change was to builds and gameplay. Again if someone has a specific counter example of any five pools of concern I would like to see it, in an build preferably.

 

My actual concern is regarding player attrition and recruitment. Creativity is a vehicle to address the needs of a key player-base. I look for QoLs that would attract players to our servers and I think this could potentially be one of them. The general theme of new players asking to get in game revolves around customization. Its important to many players to include future players.

 

 

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17 hours ago, Gobbledygook said:

 

I don't. Thanks for assuming, though.

You know how the saying goes about that, makes an a-, well, you get it.

Especially when you do that about the ENTIRE player base.

It was just an example of a power in a pool.

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14 hours ago, Gobbledygook said:

 

This.

This is perfectly acceptable.

I’d be ok with them testing that (one more pool at cost of APP/PPP).

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On 6/4/2021 at 3:56 PM, 5099y_74c05 said:

What is next? DEF? Weave is the power offering the highest DEF is equivalent to about two IO sets of DEF bonsuses. This choice requires a commitment of two other choices from the pool. Other pool picks offer about half the value ranking it equivalent to one IO set worth of bonus.

 

This doesn't capture the dynamic of defense, in two ways:

 

1.  LotG is crucial to building to permahasten, and if your powersets do not include copious defense powers having defense powers in pools is a major premium as a complement to Hasten, not an alternative to it.

 

2.  Defense offers strongly increasing returns as you approach softcap.  If it were easy to hit softcap for most characters without pool powers, the ability to pick up defense pool powers more easily wouldn't be a big deal -- but outside of Time defenders and defense-based armor sets, it's not easy to build to softcap without pool powers.  If it were impossible to get near softcap for most characters, it wouldn't be a big deal to give people access to more defense powers.  But in fact, we live in a world in which getting S/L/E close to or to softcap is possible with pool powers and set bonuses, but it's tight.  So every additional +3% or so you can pick up matters.

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Is it reasonable to look at Kheldians as a sample of how this already works? They get a forced Travel at lv1 and a supplement from the same pool at lv10, but they do not count among pools (or even powers) taken (so it kind of aligns with a suggestion that a travel pool not cost a pool pick), and it hasn't broken them. They could still just have other issues keeping from from brokenness, though.

 

Flipside of those freebies is they don't get EPPs/APPs, and they don't get the option of all the powers from their forced Travel pool (I wouldn't mind getting an Air Superiority-like power on my PB), so I guess its not entirely free.

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41 minutes ago, archgemini24 said:

Is it reasonable to look at Kheldians as a sample of how this already works? They get a forced Travel at lv1 and a supplement from the same pool at lv10, but they do not count among pools (or even powers) taken (so it kind of aligns with a suggestion that a travel pool not cost a pool pick), and it hasn't broken them. They could still just have other issues keeping from from brokenness, though.

 

Flipside of those freebies is they don't get EPPs/APPs, and they don't get the option of all the powers from their forced Travel pool (I wouldn't mind getting an Air Superiority-like power on my PB), so I guess its not entirely free.

 

They also have an infamous slot crunch if they take both forms. Or, really, even one.

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I tried to combine Circle and DE, but all I got were garden variety evil mages.

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27 minutes ago, aethereal said:

This doesn't capture the dynamic of defense, in two ways:

 

1.  LotG is crucial to building to permahasten, and if your powersets do not include copious defense powers having defense powers in pools is a major premium as a complement to Hasten, not an alternative to it.

 

2.  Defense offers strongly increasing returns as you approach softcap.  If it were easy to hit softcap for most characters without pool powers, the ability to pick up defense pool powers more easily wouldn't be a big deal -- but outside of Time defenders and defense-based armor sets, it's not easy to build to softcap without pool powers.  If it were impossible to get near softcap for most characters, it wouldn't be a big deal to give people access to more defense powers.  But in fact, we live in a world in which getting S/L/E close to or to softcap is possible with pool powers and set bonuses, but it's tight.  So every additional +3% or so you can pick up matters.

 

Appreciate the comments and engagement and attempting to better frame the conversation.

 

Forgive me if I come off short, its not aimed at you. There is a 1 to 50 game, it exists. This is the disconnect. Instead we get these ethereal "what ifs" with not one tangible build to demonstrate "Team No's" concerns.

 

So backing up to frame Camp "No"s concerns: is Hasten an issue or not? What other pool powers are deemed to break balance? Why? Ultimately I want to know which five pools in combination break the game as claimed. If its DEF that is the concern, for the price of only seven picks you could feasibly stack Stealth + Hover + Maneuvers + Combat Jumping and Weave by level 16 for 1.3 EPS utilization and 20.24 DEF using a Blaster as the baseline 17.47 DEF if you drop one of the weaker pools. The numbers may be over inflated using lvl 50 IOs.

 

Too game breaking Doomie with its two attack powers? Easy fix, cap DEF to four picks. Problem solved. The point is there are several way to mitigate concerning issues; No is the start of the conversation not the excuse.

 

From my understanding of the OPs clarification I'm interpreting them as wanting one travel + four power pools; others are viewing it as a full fifth pool. Two different things two different discussions. I don't think either will be game breaking but I'm more for the former than the later after reading the OPs update; I think the four + travel is more likely to get traction while appeasing those concerned with unnamed game breaking fifth pool. <makes spooky noises>

 

As to your point one; show me a build where transitioning from nearPerma to Perma breaks the game. This concern is moot under travel + four,  the same build can forgo the travel pick to get the equivalent permaHasten outcome unless you are suggesting the travel power is the issue. If so the later. please elaborate.

 

As to point two; without discussing it in a build it is difficult to move forward with the powergamer bogey man. Show me a build you claim needs five power pools to softcap and you will likely be able to do it in four or less. Depending on what vectors/typed DEF you are talking about you may be able to get there with very few slot or it may require six slot commitment.

 

Regardless an Incarnate Alpha slot will easily put a build over if its short 3 DEF points as you used in your example. Again this is an end game concern when you start talking about IOs and softcapping or builds outside the specific ones mentioned. If this is really a concern the simple fix is to cap DEF powers to four picks and call it a day; you can't take more than four today and its only if you go all in on DEF.

 

So again,  what is the game breaking five pool combo?

 

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

They also have an infamous slot crunch if they take both forms. Or, really, even one.

 

Too true on the slot-crunch! But a Kheldian taking the forms is less likely to take the combination of potential "gamebreaking" pools (my guess on this set is Hasten, Combat Jumping, Leadership, Fighting, and Hover: which are admittedly the combination I have on my Human-only PB, lol!) since it is dependent on a lot of toggles that get turned off during the shuffle. My Tri-form build runs Hasten, Stealth for the LotG Uniques, and Force of Will (Unleash Potential).

 

Khelds just came to mind because they do effectively get a "travel-only, but at the cost of an Epic" 5th pool (a 6th and 7th if you include the Forms), and I was wondering how much of a difference it would make if they effectively got their choice of Travel and Supplement. I'd prefer Hover and Fly on my Warshade as a matter of convenience and theme, but I imagine there are some PBs for whom Recall and Teleport would match for them, or Combat Jumping and Super Jump. I'd say Hasten and SS, but there is no way in hell that's happening: it would be Flurry and SS or, at best, something on the order of Quickness from SR: the slow resistance would be nice, though.

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Mostly on Torchbearer, but if you ever see me on, feel free to say hello!

Astral.Kai - Peacebringer; Dark.Enforcer - Dark/Shield Scrapper; Spark.Enforcer - Electrical/Shield Scrapper; Shadow.Reign - Dark/Regen Brute;

Glitter - Warshade;

And others to be added as I get them up to snuff, lol!

 

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I agree with the OP, because it means more people would be able to slot the powers they've always wanted to, like Provoke and Injection!

 

Oh, wait. People just want the Defence powers? Hm .. okay .. maybe another time ..

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5 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

From my understanding of the OPs clarification I'm interpreting them as wanting one travel + four power pools; others are viewing it as a full fifth pool. Two different things two different discussions. I don't think either will be game breaking but I'm more for the former than the later after reading the OPs update; I think the four + travel is more likely to get traction while appeasing those concerned with unnamed game breaking fifth pool. <makes spooky noises>

 

 

 

For me specifically it generally come down to a travel power.  In many of my builds I do take Speed for Hasten / SS, Fighting for Tough / Weave, Leaping for CJ, and Leadership for Maneuvers / Tactics / Assault.  At that point I have the powers I need for defense and/or LoTG, but I also want Fly, but cannot get it.  Since I can substitute a Jet Pack for Fly I will often make that choice although I would rather just pick Fly.  If I really need Fly for concept I will generally ditch Leaping or the Leadership pool.

 

I would be fine with allowing an additional pool to select only the travel power.

I would be fine with selecting a 5th pool if you don't take the Epic pool.

I would be fine with capping defense pool powers.

I would also be fine with just opening a 5th pool.

 

I'm really just looking for more build diversification though pool powers.  Sure some people may min/max their builds, but so what?  People already do that...

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Posted (edited)

@aethereal sums it up nicely with the LotG example. You can only slot 5 of the Global Recharge Speed enhancements on any one character.

 

With 5 power pools, we can easily just pick Weave (Fighting), Stealth (invisibility), Hover (Flight), Manuevers (Leadership) and Combat Jumping (Leaping). That means you can slot all 5 LotG enhancements in pool powers alone, which means an exponential increase in build performance across all archetypes.

 

Now lets consider that you have at least one defense power in your primary or secondary powersets, or if you opted to pick a defense power in your ancillaries (like Frozen Armor or Scorpion Shield), that means you don't need that 5th pool power pick to accomplish the same result, right? However, that extra 5th pool power choice is likely going to be Hasten (Speed) to capitalise on the recharge boost that LotG offers, which means that any archetype in the game can run this kinda build, since all archetypes can access at least one defense power in their primary/secondary/ancillary powersets.

 

Right now, in order to maximise this setup with just four power pools, you're going to need at least two powers outside of pools that grant defense, which for some archetypes or powerset combinations isn't as easy as others. If you want to make it work, you have to consider your options carefully and make sacrifices in other areas of your build. By introducing a 5th power pool, we just make it easier for people to min-max.

 

So I'd argue this isn't going to bring more build diversification, it'll just create new metabuilds across all archetypes that grossly outperform the ones we have now. That's why if I were to support the idea of a 5th power pool, it would be in the form of swapping your ancillary power pool for a standard power pool, because it balances things a little easier. 

 

 

Edited by Tyrannical
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11 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Too game breaking Doomie with its two attack powers? Easy fix, cap DEF to four picks. Problem solved. The point is there are several way to mitigate concerning issues; No is the start of the conversation not the excuse.

 

From my understanding of the OPs clarification I'm interpreting them as wanting one travel + four power pools; others are viewing it as a full fifth pool. Two different things two different discussions.

 

Your ability to change your argument in the face of new evidence is uncanny.

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