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4 hours ago, Lockpick said:

 

For me specifically it generally come down to a travel power.  In many of my builds I do take Speed for Hasten / SS, Fighting for Tough / Weave, Leaping for CJ, and Leadership for Maneuvers / Tactics / Assault.  At that point I have the powers I need for defense and/or LoTG, but I also want Fly, but cannot get it.  Since I can substitute a Jet Pack for Fly I will often make that choice although I would rather just pick Fly.  If I really need Fly for concept I will generally ditch Leaping or the Leadership pool.

 

I would be fine with allowing an additional pool to select only the travel power.

I would be fine with selecting a 5th pool if you don't take the Epic pool.

I would be fine with capping defense pool powers.

I would also be fine with just opening a 5th pool.

 

I'm really just looking for more build diversification though pool powers.  Sure some people may min/max their builds, but so what?  People already do that...

Thanks for clarifying your ask. This helps understand where you are coming from. It looks like there are two asks in here: Travel + Four or Five Pools total so thanks for confirming.

 

Yep zero examples of actual builds. I know its hard to provide evidence to support arguments. The main example given already occurs in game with four pool picks.

 

If you actually provided an example build you would see builds can already slot 5 LotG without the fifth pool pick using the Concealment pool as the example, Capping self DEF buff picks to four, as it is in the game now. prevents them from optimizing the fifth pick. Disallowing anything but a travel pick for fifth pool prevents Hasten as being this pick.

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I think that we should stop dicking around with travel power changes -- the latest round of changes were interesting, but also kind of a waste of time in my opinion.

 

That said, it wouldn't be insane to make a "power pool" or something like it that just gave people access to the four classic travel powers without costing them a power pool slot (so literally just flight, teleport, superspeed, super jump).  I don't think that can reasonably be abused -- it probably just means that people who really want teleport for concept aren't punished as badly as they are in the game today.  You could probably also give people access to Mystic Flight and whatever the Super Jump clone is called (but not Speed of Sound, which at least for PvP is a power that impacts combat balance heavily).

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8 minutes ago, arcane said:

Travel powers are powerful assets in combat. No vote to decoupling those from the rest.

If travel powers were actually powerful assets in combat, people with top-performing builds would take them and use them in combat, which they don't (again, except Speed of Sound in PvP).

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, aethereal said:

If travel powers were actually powerful assets in combat, people with top-performing builds would take them and use them in combat, which they don't (again, except Speed of Sound in PvP).

They either do take them and use them already or the only reason they don’t is the squeeze to fit defense and LotG’s. Most people make do with SS/CJ for that latter reason alone. And you can stop mentioning PvP. You can Jaunt about in PvE too if you’re a good enough player to forego Fighting or Leadership once in awhile.

 

The only reason travel powers are not used more as combat assets is because players are uncomfortable surviving without Weave and Maneuvers. That does not mean they are not assets in combat.

Edited by arcane
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You ignored the facts and changed your argument.

 

This is like the third time this pops up, maybe more, you could just read through the piles of threads already made about this exact topic

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1 minute ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Elaborate the concern.

 

All of these "metabuilds" are created via software called Mids, which is only configurable for up to 4 power pools.

 

And no, it's not as simple as adding the numbers from a 5th power pool onto an existing build, because all the values wouldn't be correct. The only way an accurate example could be provided was if the Mids software was equipped to handle a 5th power pool, so all numerical data could be calculated properly, since the enhancement system is percentile based with all kinds of rules, exceptions and formulas. 

 

It is literally impossible to provide the evidence you want, so you'll have to settle for the theoretical materials provided.

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@aethereal ...How are people who take teleport for concept punished by the current system? I mean, you can grab it right at level 6 without prereqs. Do you mean a lack of ability to take certain IOs like Hover and Combat Jumping do?

But in any case, I'll echo an idea I've had in the past, which kind of flows with what you said. Have the four main travel powers available to pick at Level 1, along with your Pri/Sec at character creation. Whether this takes up a pool choice or not, I'm undecided. But it would amount to an extra free power and slot, which on it's own is already pretty powerful.

As for the ability to have unlimited pool picks, I'm undecided. On one hand, people say it would open up build diversity, but as this thread has demonstrated, all that would amount to is everyone trying to fit Hover/CJ/Stealth/Maneuvers/Weave and Hasten into their builds to stack up on Defense and Recharge. I highly doubt anyone would use the opening of pool choices to dive too heavily into Presence or Medicine.

On the OTHER hand, a build that dives too heavily into pools to accomplish all this might not be very effective, would it? Let's find out! The combo above takes up 8 powers (assuming Boxing-or-Kick and Tough are still prerequisites for Weave). We have a total of 24 powers. If you factor in the 3 Pri/Sec powers we have to take at levels 1 and 2, that leaves us with 13 more power choices to fill out our build. In other words, we've already taken up nearly half of our power choices. Let's make a few more assumptions, that wouldn't apply to everyone, but let's just theory-craft here!

Someone who's already opened up Leadership is probably also going to take Assault and/or Tactics. Also, having taken Hasten and CJ, they may pick Super Speed and/or Super Jump as well. This seems to be part of the meta, so I don't think it's a stretch to make this theoretical presumption.  So that's at least two more power picks, but a max of four more, bringing our total power picks for everything else down to about 10 (plus our three mandatory Pri/Sec powers).

With ten more powers, plus the fact that we already to have at least one attack and one utility power, and a third that could go either way (depending on your AT and Pri/Sec), it wouldn't be too difficult to round out our attack chain and grab some utility, while also benefiting from near-permahasten and about 15-25% defense to start off with (depending on AT). Let's try all this with a classic Fire/En Blaster!

Auto: Health
Auto: Stamina
Level 1: Fire Blast
Level 1: Power Thrust
Level 2: Fireball
Level 4: Build Up
Level 6: Stealth
Level 8: Maneuvers
Level 10: Hover
Level 12: Aim
Level 14: Hasten
Level 16: Boxing (this is where Mids can no longer keep up with this thought experiment, so, gotta wing it from here!)
Level 18: Blaze
Level 20: Tough
Level 22: Weave
Level 24: Energize
Level 26: Super Speed
Level 28: Assault
Level 30: Tactics
Level 32: Inferno
Level 35: Munitions Mastery: Body Armor
Level 38: Bone Smasher
Level 41: Cryo Freeze Ray
Level 44: Rain of Fire
Level 47: Surveillance
Level 49: Vengeance

Not even gonna try to completely slot it, but I don't think it would be hard to fit all the standard Uniques and globals and procs and purple sets one would want. Giving our 5 +Def powers a level 50 Def enhancement, and our Res powers a Res enhancement, and loading them up with our specials (+def, +res, etc), we have a character who has about 18% Def vs all, 8% res vs all except S/L which is about 33%.

If we go for sets? Well, slotting what I could, getting to the Def cap (range) and Perma hasten weren't especially difficult. Being able to fit multiple purple sets and BotZ sets helped with that.

So, yeah, a character with Def cap, perma hasten, and a viable ranged attack chain (as well as the "Get out of my face" combo of Bone Smasher + Power Thrust), and Inferno for when you just wanna blow a bunch of dudes up. Sounds powerful, right?

Overall, it doesn't seem too much crazier than what we can already do, but I also don't see anyone wanting to chase a "meta" build deviating too far from this, short of fitting in a hibernate/aid self combo for PvP.

 

I wonder what a janky "ALL pools!" build would look like, where someone tried to go all in on as many pools as possible, to the detriment of everything else. Weak attacks for sure, but being able to do a little bit of everything sounds like it might be fun 😃

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39 minutes ago, arcane said:

They either do take them and use them already or the only reason they don’t is the squeeze to fit defense and LotG’s. Most people make do with SS/CJ for that latter reason alone. And you can stop mentioning PvP. You can Jaunt about in PvE too if you’re a good enough player to forego Fighting or Leadership once in awhile.

 

The only reason travel powers are not used more as combat assets is because players are uncomfortable surviving without Weave and Maneuvers. That does not mean they are not assets in combat.

 

This is an aside, but ... "once in a while?" Since when does Fighting or Leadership (the power pool, not the actual ability) determine if you're a "good player" or not? Neither are required. Play without them. I can guarantee people will get to 1-50 just fine.

 

... and of course if you don't need them, it does kind of mitigate the desire for yet another power pool, so it circles on back to the thread in any case. ;)

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Primarily on Everlasting. Squid afficionado. Former creator of Copypastas. General smartalec.

 

I tried to combine Circle and DE, but all I got were garden variety evil mages.

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6 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

 

I wonder what a janky "ALL pools!" build would look like, where someone tried to go all in on as many pools as possible, to the detriment of everything else. Weak attacks for sure, but being able to do a little bit of everything sounds like it might be fun 😃

 

"Pool boy" builds have been a thing since live. Never did it myself, but they are around.

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Primarily on Everlasting. Squid afficionado. Former creator of Copypastas. General smartalec.

 

I tried to combine Circle and DE, but all I got were garden variety evil mages.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

This is an aside, but ... "once in a while?" Since when does Fighting or Leadership (the power pool, not the actual ability) determine if you're a "good player" or not? Neither are required. Play without them. I can guarantee people will get to 1-50 just fine.

 

... and of course if you don't need them, it does kind of mitigate the desire for yet another power pool, so it circles on back to the thread in any case. 😉

I’m not saying anything beyond the fact that some people view the defense and LotG’s as far too critical to ever try anything else. I’m not saying that you’re a bad player if you insist on building that way every time. You’re only a bad player if you do so specifically because you don’t think you can survive without them. 

 

46 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

I am curious to hear more about this.

 

I've only used Combat Teleport in active combat (I love it) but I don't consider this a "travel power" per say. Its possible that this is another layer worth discussion: "What is a travel power?" to make sure we aren't missing something; really what powers are tagged as such in game. Power creep can come from power employment and not necessarily from IO slotting.

 

SS+Repel/KD powers is one combo I know of that can be used to mitigate damage effectively. I suspect both of these are aggressive active playstyles that also doesn't appeal to some players or may be difficult to use.

 

Best example by far of travel as an in combat asset is obviously the fact that Fly/Mystic Flight are the best melee defense powers in the game. After that the differences are far more incremental. Like quicker and easier kiting/dodging/escaping. Or like the fact that you can save a few seconds gathering mobs by jaunting between them rather than running between them. Every second you don’t spend in between fights is a boost to your character’s DPS and clear times.

Edited by arcane
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59 minutes ago, arcane said:

They either do take them and use them already or the only reason they don’t is the squeeze to fit defense and LotG’s. Most people make do with SS/CJ for that latter reason alone. And you can stop mentioning PvP. You can Jaunt about in PvE too if you’re a good enough player to forego Fighting or Leadership once in awhile.

 

The only reason travel powers are not used more as combat assets is because players are uncomfortable surviving without Weave and Maneuvers. That does not mean they are not assets in combat.

 

If anyone wants to use Superspeed, they already are invested in that pool, they can get it.  If anyone wants to get Superjump, they are already invested in the pool, they can get it (but they don't, because it's mutually exclusive with Combat Jumping).  If anyone wants to get Flight, they can use Hover instead of Combat Jumping (and some do) and they can get it (but they don't , because it's mutually exclusive with Hover and Hover is superior for combat purposes).

 

So the upshot of the proposed change is that if someone wants to get Teleport, they can do so without a problem.  It seems deeply unlikely to me that people will find it worth giving up a power choice for Teleport.  If they do, then that sounds like it adds to the diversity of play experience without probably moving top end power level and that sounds positive, not negative.

 

All that said, I think the benefits of this change are very low and it's not actually worth doing, so this is going to be my last post on the topic.

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26 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

@aethereal ...How are people who take teleport for concept punished by the current system? I mean, you can grab it right at level 6 without prereqs. Do you mean a lack of ability to take certain IOs like Hover and Combat Jumping do?

 

It uses one of your power pool slots for a pool that gives you no defense powers.

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1 minute ago, aethereal said:

 

If anyone wants to use Superspeed, they already are invested in that pool, they can get it.  If anyone wants to get Superjump, they are already invested in the pool, they can get it (but they don't, because it's mutually exclusive with Combat Jumping).  If anyone wants to get Flight, they can use Hover instead of Combat Jumping (and some do) and they can get it (but they don't , because it's mutually exclusive with Hover and Hover is superior for combat purposes).

 

So the upshot of the proposed change is that if someone wants to get Teleport, they can do so without a problem.  It seems deeply unlikely to me that people will find it worth giving up a power choice for Teleport.  If they do, then that sounds like it adds to the diversity of play experience without probably moving top end power level and that sounds positive, not negative.

 

All that said, I think the benefits of this change are very low and it's not actually worth doing, so this is going to be my last post on the topic.

We shouldn’t be assuming that players having specific powers already is a given because it’s factually untrue.
 

HOWEVER, yes, most of us will have Hasten.

 

Many will have Combat Jumping too but note there’s no reason that one has to be necessary on a melee with immobilize protection already included. I like the combat mobility so I’ll give it to ya. 
 

Hover instead of Combat Jumping? Lol. I would never think of the two as interchangeable. One gives you mobility, one kills your mobility.

 

Anyway, that’s all moot because, again, you can’t make these assumptions because they are factually not universal.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

It uses one of your power pool slots for a pool that gives you no defense powers.

That’s not a punishment unless you can’t survive without optimized defense. Which is not the best optics for this kind of thread since it calls into question your experience.

 

I’m not saying you are actually a bad player but please reconsider the implications of the bad argument that you just have to have your defense buffs.

Edited by arcane
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18 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

It uses one of your power pool slots for a pool that gives you no defense powers.

 

That's what i THOUGHT you meant, but I didn't want to assume.

Just so we're clear, that's not a punishment. It's a choice that has a consequence via opportunity cost. Like, taking Teleport doesn't debuff your character's Damage and ToHit, that would be a punishment! Though if you wanted to get super technical, you could always slot the BotZ set in there and get a little bit of defense, which should soften the blow. Unless you're hung up on slotting 5 LotGs, in which case, that's still not a punishment, it's just an unoptimized choice.

The whole idea behind the Invention system is that it invites us to make odd power choices to get the best bonuses or to maximize those bonuses by getting five of each. It could have done better in this regard: Put all the best Globals into Taunt, Fear and directed/cast Healing powers (ie, cannot go into auto powers like Health), make everyone tempted to take the Presence or Medicine pools. But no, they took the easy way out and put the most useful IOs into Defense, Res, and general Healing (can go into Health which everyone has) sets. Though maybe they considered this and received push-back because no one wanted to be "forced" to take useless powers to get a small recharge bonus?

Personally, if that's what people are so hung up on, I'd probably just Nerf the "Rule of 5" down to "Rule of 3", BUT, increase all the bonuses to compensate. Make an LotG Recharge give 10% instead of 7.5. Being able to slot 3 gives you 30%, where right now it's 35%, so, you'd only be losing out a little, AND, it would free up some power selections since you no longer "had" to take 5 defense powers. No more of this 0.65% defense bonus garbage, give everything a minimum value of 2.5% or something. I dunno, just spitballin' here 😃

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1 hour ago, Tyrannical said:

All of these "metabuilds" are created via software called Mids, which is only configurable for up to 4 power pools.

 

And no, it's not as simple as adding the numbers from a 5th power pool onto an existing build, because all the values wouldn't be correct. The only way an accurate example could be provided was if the Mids software was equipped to handle a 5th power pool, so all numerical data could be calculated properly, since the enhancement system is percentile based with all kinds of rules, exceptions and formulas. 

 

It is literally impossible to provide the evidence you want, so you'll have to settle for the theoretical materials provided.

It's not the impediment you think it is, The problem space can still be defined with or without the tools we have available. Defining the problem space is usually the first step in assessing the issue(s) not the last. Solutions come as a response.

 

Regarding DEF, its additive and so is the end utilization, there isn't any unpredictable emergence when stacking these with each other.

 

If you are trying to demonstrate something with sets you can do so with the tools we have; folks can figure out the rest.

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