Castles and Cottages: Ancient History

[Jimmy]

Disclaimer: This is just my personal view, not that of the entire team.

 

I agree with several of the posters here - it's more of a guide than a hard rule.

 

For me, the most important thing is that a powerset / character doesn't completely lose a capability or function that it already has - even if an individual power is completely changed, or a respec is required, or some effort needs to be put in.

 

Some recent examples:

• Energy Melee: Stun (the power) is fundamentally gone, yes, but the set is still completely stacked with single target stun.
• Teleportation: Recall Friend and Teleport Foe are technically gone, but the set can still do both. Long Range Teleport is gone, but your character can still gain this power another way.
• Flight: The old version of Afterburner is gone, but its speed buff is now included in Fly, and its defence is included in Evasive Maneuvers.
• Tactical Arrow: Agility was removed, but Gymnastics inherited most of its effects.
• Concealment: The new version of Stealth does (almost) everything old Invisibility and Stealth used to do. The only missing component was being able to put yourself into OAS, which the new P2W power does for free.

Fundamentally these sets (and the characters who have them) can still do everything they did before (with, of course, balance adjustments where required), and that's what counts.

[Glacier Peak]

1 minute ago, Jimmy said:

Disclaimer: This is just my personal view, not that of the entire team.

 

I agree with several of the posters here - it's more of a guide than a hard rule.

 

For me, the most important thing is that a powerset / character doesn't completely lose a capability or function that it already has - even if an individual power is completely changed, or a respec is required, or some effort needs to be put in.

 

Some recent examples:

• Energy Melee: Stun (the power) is fundamentally gone, yes, but the set is still completely stacked with single target stun.
• Teleportation: Recall Friend and Teleport Foe are technically gone, but the set can still do both. Long Range Teleport is gone, but your character can still gain this power another way.
• Flight: The old version of Afterburner is gone, but its speed buff is now included in Fly, and its defence is included in Evasive Maneuvers.
• Tactical Arrow: Agility was removed, but Gymnastics inherited most of its effects.

Fundamentally these sets (and the characters who have them) can still do everything they did before (with, of course, balance adjustments where required), and that's what counts.

Don't forget Stealth/Invis!

[Jimmy]

Just now, Glacier Peak said:

Don't forget Stealth/Invis!

Ah yes.

[Taboo]

20 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Some recent examples:

• Energy Melee: Stun (the power) is fundamentally gone, yes, but the set is still completely stacked with single target stun.
• Teleportation: Recall Friend and Teleport Foe are technically gone, but the set can still do both. Long Range Teleport is gone, but your character can still gain this power another way.
• Flight: The old version of Afterburner is gone, but its speed buff is now included in Fly, and its defence is included in Evasive Maneuvers.
• Tactical Arrow: Agility was removed, but Gymnastics inherited most of its effects.
• Concealment: The new version of Stealth does (almost) everything old Invisibility and Stealth used to do. The only missing component was being able to put yourself into OAS, which the new P2W power does for free.

 

Fine, I'll be the bad guy.

 

Energy Melee changes are well covered. Pluses and minuses.. adding of combo mechanic = gross

Teleport Foe can not target through another now. Maybe there was a fix I missed.

Afterburner, only part of it's defense is now available in combat.

"most of its effects"

New Stealth, only part of Invisibility's defense is now available in combat.

Rune of Protection...

Dark Melee...

 

IF the P2W OAS allows exactly the same amount defense for New Stealth and Evasive Maneuvers as Invisibility and Afterburner had with a .5s activation, kudos on another workaround.

 

Don't confuse my critical comments on specific powers as a lack of appreciation overall.

 

2 hours ago, Bopper said:

I interpret the cottage rule differently perhaps. If they had still called it Stun yet removed the 100% chance for stun along with all the other changes that came with Power Crash, I would have agreed it was a violation of the cottage rule. However, they removed Stun and made a new power, which is not a violation of the cottage rule as that power now no longer exists. In fact, I think thats what the cottage rule is trying to dictate in some way, where if a change to a power is so radical that it no longer serves its original function, then it can not be treated as the same power.

 

This is a concerning disconnect.

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by Taboo

[arcane]

Now that’s settled, we can move on to discussing the merits of @UberGuy’s Cottage Construction set.

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, Taboo said:

Fine, I'll be the bad guy.

You are confusing core functionality with exact specs. No core functionalities were altered in any of the above changes.

Edited April 27, 2021 by arcane

[Taboo]

Just now, arcane said:

You are confusing core functionality with exact specs. No core functionalities were altered in any of the above changes.

 

Sure if you didn't use a power that way I can see that. But if you did use say Afterburner as a get out of trouble power. Both the core functionality and exact specs were impacted.

[Alchemystic]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

For me, the most important thing is that a powerset / character doesn't completely lose a capability or function that it already has - even if an individual power is completely changed, or a respec is required, or some effort needs to be put in.

 

I'm glad there's a clarification here.

 

Most people seem to look at the cottage rule and believe that it applies to each individual power, whereas a more fitting application of the rule is the function of the powerset as a whole as you've said.

 

So thanks for clearing that up!

[Taboo]

was there a question?

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, Taboo said:

 

Sure if you didn't use a power that way I can see that. But if you did use say Afterburner as a get out of trouble power. Both the core functionality and exact specs were impacted.

Check me on this, but old system, to use afterburner to get out of trouble that required 3 picks. Fly+OtherPreq+Afterburner.

That's still fundamentally the same isn't it?  1 pick for Fly+Afterburner combined, 1 other prereq, and then third pick is Evasive Manuverse.

 

I guess you'd now have two toggles to activate?  But it should be doable to setup a GTFO macro/bind you tap twice, putting up defenses first and then increased speed?

Am I missing something else, or do you feel that that 2nd toggle to activate it makes it not worth it anymore?

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Taboo said:

 

Sure if you didn't use a power that way I can see that. But if you did use say Afterburner as a get out of trouble power. Both the core functionality and exact specs were impacted.

Well I think we’re a little closer now but still in disagreement about the term. I think core functionality in this game’s design history is being defined such that examples are things like “Self Defense Buff” or “Self Fly Speed Boost”, etc. You’re talking more about use cases, which are bound to change if the devs are allowed to change much of anything at all.

[Taboo]

18 minutes ago, MTeague said:

That's still fundamentally the same isn't it?

 

Afterburner had an almost 20% def aspect that could be used to soft cap only when needed. The concession was it made it so you couldn't do anything else. That is gone.

 

If players looked at it as only a fly cap increase I can see how it is essentially the same.

 

The multi-toggle and popup tray. Annoying but I agree they can be overcome.

 

Evasive Maneuvers maybe not worth the cost now to me. Seems to be great for min/max to have another source of a smidge of defense to tap into.

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by Taboo

[Alchemystic]

9 minutes ago, Taboo said:

was there a question?

 

I just disagree that the core functionality was affected.

[MTeague]

4 minutes ago, Taboo said:

 

Afterburner had an almost 20% def aspect that could be used to soft cap only when needed. The concession was it made it so you couldn't do anything else. That is gone.

 

If players looked at it as only a fly cap increase I can see how it is essentially the same.

 

The multi-toggle and popup tray. Annoying but I agree they can be overcome.

 

Right, but I'm saying you can STILL GET that defense, in Evasive Manuvers for the exact same number of power picks as before.

True, Old Afterburner had the +DEF, New Afterburner Doesn't.

But Old Afterburner took 3 power picks, New Afterburner takes 1.

 

If you spend 3 power picks for Fly,Hover,Evasive Manuvers, which is the same number of picks as before, you can still have the +Flyspeed and the +DEF, exactly as before.

Sooo.... I accept that maybe I'm dense.... but I don't see the problem here.

[Taboo]

1 minute ago, MTeague said:

Right, but I'm saying you can STILL GET that defense, in Evasive Manuvers

 

Ah I see. No, the amount of defense available in combat is dramatically reduced. In combat and out of combat being different values.

[MTeague]

17 minutes ago, Taboo said:

 

Ah I see. No, the amount of defense available in combat is dramatically reduced. In combat and out of combat being different values.

Ah. Didn't realize that. But okay.  Now I get it. 

 

6 minutes ago, Night said:

Old Afterburner gained you 10.5% defense, new Evasive Maneuvers give you 13.5% defense. New's higher, unless you used to turn on Afterburner in combat, in which case, why? It made you only affect self, so you'd just float there doing nothing, I guess...

He did. His specific use case was a "GTFO" button to run for the door/elevator/away when in trouble.

Much like Personal Force Field, only something he could get in a pool.

 

The playerbase writ large is probably happier than not but.... I see the problem now.  Maybe if they added something so you get the higher defense number even in combat just so long as you do not attack or heal other players or interact with things?  But I'm not sure the code supports finessing it to that degree.

[Taboo]

16 minutes ago, Night said:

Old Afterburner gained you 10.5% defense, new Evasive Maneuvers give you 13.5% defense. New's higher, unless you used to turn on Afterburner in combat, in which case, why? It made you only affect self, so you'd just float there doing nothing, I guess...

 

You're stating non-enhanced numbers. As I remember it was closer to 20 on builds.

And yes, 'only affect self, so you'd just float there doing nothing' very similar to a mini Personal Force Field but with the added ability zoom away or zoom into a fight.

[PeregrineFalcon]

The problem that I have when most people mention the Cottage Rule is the same one that I have when most people mention the Prime Directive. The people bringing them up usually misunderstand them and only use them to try to win the argument. Neither are supposed to be absolute rules, lifetime ideologies, or weapons used to bash other peoples' opinions with.

 

What they both are is very important rules. Rules that you want to think really hard about before breaking. And if you do break them you'd better be right, or there's gonna be hell to pay.

 

As Castle explained it, none of the above examples break the Cottage Rule. Stun (now Power Crash) is still a melee power with a lot of stun attached to it. You can still Recall Friends and Teleport Foes. You get the idea. Remove the +damage from Rage and turn it into a toggle that just adds a sparkly aura to your costume and now you've broken the Cottage Rule.

 

Also, I sparred with Castle quite a bit on the retail forums and my memory of these events matches Luminara's. For whatever that's worth.

[Troo]

7 hours ago, AerialAssault said:

Ship of Theseus

 

I am impressed.

 

groan.. so long as you're not making some Wanda Vision reference.

 

"Theseus' paradox, is a thought experiment that raises the question of whether an object that has had all of its components replaced remains fundamentally the same object."

Edited April 28, 2021 by Troo

[Bopper]

5 hours ago, UberGuy said:

I am really sure that's the first time I've heard someone interpret it that way. IMO, that's exactly the kind of thing the Cottage Rule was about avoiding. The example was "Build Up now builds a small cottage". I mean, OK, in the example, it's still called "Build Up" and it now builds a house. But if it was called "Construct Cottage", I don't think that would actually satisfy anyone.

That might be where I am interpreting it differently than others. I see the cottage rule as a means to not redefine a power, but I do not see it as a means where a power can't be replaced altogether. Perhaps Power Crash was a bad example as it still *can* stun (while doing a bunch of new things on top of that), while Stun *will* stun. The example I probably should have used was how Long Range Teleport was replaced by Fold Space. If Long Range Teleport was still known as LRT and had its effects replaced by Fold Space (and losing every single one of its core functions), then I would say "woah, you're breaking the cottage rule, changing what the power does". But when LRT is replaced by a power called Fold Space, I see it as just that: a replacement, not a change. 

 

So if the cottage rule was to be interpreted as no power can be replaced in the game, then I would think that's overly restrictive. I don't think that is the case however.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Bopper

[Troo]

2 hours ago, Taboo said:

Ah I see. No, the amount of defense available in combat is dramatically reduced. In combat and out of combat being different values.

 

Good luck with this. I've tried to explain it a number of different ways with little success.

 

"Evasive Maneuvers provides a moderate amount of Defense even while on the floor, but this defense is lost if you attack, buff allies, give an order to pets or interact with a mission objective."  https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.flight.afterburner

 

"Also provides the same level of defense as old Afterburner while out of combat, but this is removed while in combat"

Spoiler

•  Evasive Maneuvers
  • Replaces the old version of Afterburner as Flight's tier 5 power
    • If you previously had Afterburner, you now have Evasive Maneuvers
    • Note that if you previously had Fly, the speed bonus previously given by Afterburner is built into Fly for free, and you'll get the new version of Afterburner as a free popup tray power
  • Evasive Maneuvers is a defensive toggle with moderate endurance cost (0.26/s), aimed at providing you with excellent airborne combat mobility
  • Provides the following effects whilst another Flight pool power (Fly, Hover or Group Fly) is also active:
    • -Fly and immobilize protection
    • Knockback resistance
    • Significant air control
    • Some unsuppressed flight speed (allowing you to fly much faster during combat)
  • Also provides the same level of defense as old Afterburner while out of combat, but this is removed while in combat
    • This bonus is suppressed for 10s when entering combat (the same as Stealth's out-of-combat defence)
    • The defense bonuses will suppress if the user attacks, heals or buffs an ally, commands a pet, or interacts with a mission objective

 

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by Troo

[Alchemystic]

55 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Also, I sparred with Castle quite a bit on the retail forums and my memory of these events matches Luminara's. For whatever that's worth.

 

I guess we all have different experiences with people, so there's bound to be differences In perspectives, and we're each entitled to the opinions we form afterwards.

 

I don't have anything personal against Castle, most of what I've come to understand of the guy comes from what I've witnessed on the old forums myself, but I never really had any direct interaction with him.

 

But I'm not gonna insist you share my views, or declare you aren't justified in expressing yours, at least.

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by Tyrannical

[siolfir]

3 hours ago, MTeague said:

Maybe if they added something so you get the higher defense number even in combat just so long as you do not attack or heal other players or interact with things?  But I'm not sure the code supports finessing it to that degree.

That's actually how it was supposed to be set up. One of the patches had it suppress only when attacking or clicking mission objectives, and someone pointed out how incredibly useful this was for buffers and masterminds, who did not need to attack to provide a lot of utility during combat, so it was altered to include commanding pets and healing/buffing others.

 

Here are the conditions for suppression from CoD2:

 

The sticking point is EndActivate, which was causing it to suppress when it shouldn't (read as: pretty much all the time). That was addressed in today's patch notes:

16 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Flight / Peacebringer

•  Evasive Maneuvers and  Quantum Maneuvers
  • Defence will no longer suppress upon activating any power
    • Defence will now suppress on all attacks, including pseudopet attacks, and will still suppress when buffing an ally, commanding a pet or clicking a mission objective

 

So now the issues people have with it are that losing OAS (which means you can actually do things that would cause it to suppress, unlike before), which has the side effect of things like leadership toggles which buff others in a large radius to cause the defense to suppress because they're buffing others (not because they're "in combat," being attacked doesn't cause the suppression).

[Glacier Peak]

2 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

The problem that I have when most people mention the Cottage Rule is the same one that I have when most people mention the Prime Directive. The people bringing them up usually misunderstand them and only use them to try to win the argument. Neither are supposed to be absolute rules, lifetime ideologies, or weapons used to bash other peoples' opinions with.

 

What they both are is very important rules. Rules that you want to think really hard about before breaking. And if you do break them you'd better be right, or there's gonna be hell to pay.

 

As Castle explained it, none of the above examples break the Cottage Rule. Stun (now Power Crash) is still a melee power with a lot of stun attached to it. You can still Recall Friends and Teleport Foes. You get the idea. Remove the +damage from Rage and turn it into a toggle that just adds a sparkly aura to your costume and now you've broken the Cottage Rule.

 

Also, I sparred with Castle quite a bit on the retail forums and my memory of these events matches Luminara's. For whatever that's worth.

Somewhat tangential to the discussion, forgive me, but I immediately thought of Star Trek -

 

"A guiding principle of Starfleet, prohibiting its members from interfering with the internal and natural development of alien civilizations."

[PeregrineFalcon]

16 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Somewhat tangential to the discussion, forgive me, but I immediately thought of Star Trek.

That's what The Prime Directive is from, yes. I don't want to derail this thread with a discussion of The Prime Directive, I just wanted to confirm that that is what I was referring to.

 

If it matters, the Cottage Rule didn't say "don't tweak anything ever." What it says is "core functionality." Regardless of what I think of Castle, it's a good rule.

 

I mostly agree with the OP. I don't think that the Cottage Rule should be invoked any time any one suggests any thing that you (or I) don't like. For example; the suggestion has been made many times to turn Rage into a toggle, and perhaps tweak its numbers a bit. This would allow Super Strength to finally be ported to Scrappers. Now a ton of people will be against that change. I might even be one of them, as it would be a bit of a nerf to my Will/SS Tanker. But I don't believe that change would violate the Cottage Rule, and I would disagree with anyone who claimed it did. It'd be a big change but, in the end, it'd still be a damage booster. Core functionality preserved.