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Castles and Cottages: Ancient History


Alchemystic

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For my part, I can say that our development team is always looking for ways to improve the game - and while we're more than happy to tweak and update powersets, I would presume (as I'm not on our powers dev team!) that the notion of entirely changing the core functionality of a powerset would certainly ruffle some feathers! Is it something we are going to do? I can't say one way or another - but I can promise you it wouldn't be something we'd ever do just off-the-cuff, the cottage rule might not be in full force anymore but that also doesn't mean we're going to come along and kick over established archetype core functionality on a whim!

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*climbs onto speakers "podium"

 

Personally I thank Castle for his work on the City.  And i wish he had a Cottage shoved up his bum with a "rule" he could only remove it once a day.

 

Super Strength is an iconic Super Hero power set.  And it is nearly unplayable in modern game due to the Rage Crash and the unwillingness to either revise the set or make a second Strength set without the Manic/Depressive cycle.  Thanks Castle,

 

The Tier 9s on so many Armor sets.  F-ing useless.  I'm looking at you Invulnerability.  But, nooooooo Don't Change It!  That would violate... erm.  Our right to be stupid!  Keep that non functioning thing on there forever.  Worship the cottage.  Bow down before ignorant past decisions and worship and grovel like the dogs you are.

 

*steps down off soapbox.

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2 hours ago, Snarky said:

Super Strength is an iconic Super Hero power set.  And it is nearly unplayable in modern game due to the Rage Crash and the unwillingness to either revise the set or make a

 

Would you take Rage with less crash and no stacking?

 

A new powerset that doesn't have Rage at all would totally make sense.

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On 4/27/2021 at 12:56 PM, Judasace said:

 

There may be vocal minorities of players that want X Y or Z changed, but the vast majority (if the word "vast" can even be used in conjunction with a playerbase as small as CoH has) are satisfied with the game as is and would like to see more actual content...missions, TFs, etc. rather than the continual navel-gazing nerf-buff-nerf again cycle that plagues most games.

There have been two new story arcs in the past few months, new mobs, new costumes, straight up new powers, a new zone... and thats just on the tip

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15 minutes ago, Taboo said:

 

Would you take Rage with less crash and no stacking?

 

A new powerset that doesn't have Rage at all would totally make sense.

Less/no crash would have to mean less buff too or less uptime to be balanced.

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The one character I stripped and retired on HC wasn't the one I thought it would be.  I quit playing the titan weapons/willpower scrapper about a year ago and gave away the character's transferrable incarnate tokens.  I figured the writing was on the wall for Titan Weapons, which I found rather clunky and jerky anyways.  Starting to use the character a bit more now.

 

Bjut it was the electric/electric blaster who found that the sustain power she relied on was moved to a power she deliberately skipped, and her old sustain power now had useless sets slotted in it.  The former sustain power now has too long recharge to use reliably as an opener.  That one is now lost to me.  

 

Cottage rule would have prevented that.  It failed here.  

 

 

 

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55 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

The one character I stripped and retired on HC wasn't the one I thought it would be.  I quit playing the titan weapons/willpower scrapper about a year ago and gave away the character's transferrable incarnate tokens.  I figured the writing was on the wall for Titan Weapons, which I found rather clunky and jerky anyways.  Starting to use the character a bit more now.

 

Bjut it was the electric/electric blaster who found that the sustain power she relied on was moved to a power she deliberately skipped, and her old sustain power now had useless sets slotted in it.  The former sustain power now has too long recharge to use reliably as an opener.  That one is now lost to me.  

 

Cottage rule would have prevented that.  It failed here.  

 

 

 

Cottage rule wasn’t broken in that instance because the powerset didn’t lose any core functionalities. A change that merely requires you to move a couple of slots around with a respec is not a breach of the rule, as stated multiple times in this thread.

Edited by arcane
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1 hour ago, arcane said:

Less/no crash would have to mean less buff too or less uptime to be balanced.

My tank has no Rage crash.  Because I skipped Rage.  As it stands, I think it's a trash power.  I took it originally, but later respecced and got rid of it.  When I remade him on Homecoming, I never even considered taking Rage.

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1 minute ago, Ironblade said:

My tank has no Rage crash.  Because I skipped Rage.  As it stands, I think it's a trash power.  I took it originally, but later respecced and got rid of it.  When I remade him on Homecoming, I never even considered taking Rage.

It’s certainly reasonable to dislike the power because of its crash, but that doesn’t change the fact that it would be overpowered with no crash and no other tweaks - as it would basically just be perma-build up then.

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12 minutes ago, arcane said:

It’s certainly reasonable to dislike the power because of its crash, but that doesn’t change the fact that it would be overpowered with no crash and no other tweaks - as it would basically just be perma-build up then.


Actually, I really hate it because Super Strength is being held back by the Hulk concept, which is better replicated with Fury. The raging Super Strength character is not prolific in the genre and shouldn’t be the cornerstone concept of the power set.

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1 hour ago, arcane said:

...but that doesn’t change the fact that it would be overpowered with no crash and no other tweaks - as it would basically just be perma-build up then.

You know, I'm certain that I've read this same statement at least 1,000 times since I started playing CoH. I'm not certain this is true.

 

Look, I have a 50 Willpower/SS Tanker. The same one that I had on the retail servers. I played him a lot. I monitor the damage bonus so that I always know that Rage has crashed. It's usually the only way that I know that it has crashed. Maybe it'd be different if he was SR/SS, I don't know.

 

During that short window where I can do no damage I use Taunt and Nemesis Staff to get more attention focused on me. So the Rage crash is almost meaningless to me. You know what would happen if it was removed? Nothing. I'd barely notice. So how overpowered would that be?

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire posts, the posts become warning points. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."

 

Being constantly offended doesn't mean you're right, it means you're too narcissistic to tolerate opinions different than your own.

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Just because you’ve found a couple of things to do in that window doesn’t change the fact that that window reduces both your DPS potential and your mitigation potential. Rage without a crash is just perma-build up, and the way every other melee set is designed tells us that is not something you are intended to have. Claws is the closest to having that but requires a ton of clicking to get there.

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Castle isn't responsible for the Rage crash in its current form. That happened because of an actual bugfix related to how effects stack when an existing effect is in play and a new copy comes along. Among other things, that was a bug that affected Domination negatively (I forget the precise details there), but it also affected other things, like stacking -res procs, which used to have an unavoidable gap in coverage even if you proc'd on every hit. But fixing this issue caused Rage's crash to actually apply unconditionally (instead of being avoidable if you had stacked Rage). Which it was originally supposed to do, but the bug prevented it and Paragon never fixed it.

 

So the change that made Rage crash what it is wasn't even trying to change it.

 

All that said, I think it's a shame that nothing was done to help "fix" Super Strength after that happened. Doing anything about it got bogged down in trying to figure out what kind of crash made (more?) sense for an effect so potent as Rage, and the fact that SS without Rage is numerically lackluster except for Foot Stomp.

 

But Castle doesn't deserve the blame for the Rage changes.

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2 hours ago, UberGuy said:

Castle isn't responsible for the Rage crash in its current form. That happened because of an actual bugfix related to how effects stack when an existing effect is in play and a new copy comes along. Among other things, that was a bug that affected Domination negatively (I forget the precise details there), but it also affected other things, like stacking -res procs, which used to have an unavoidable gap in coverage even if you proc'd on every hit. But fixing this issue caused Rage's crash to actually apply unconditionally (instead of being avoidable if you had stacked Rage). Which it was originally supposed to do, but the bug prevented it and Paragon never fixed it.

 

So the change that made Rage crash what it is wasn't even trying to change it.

 

All that said, I think it's a shame that nothing was done to help "fix" Super Strength after that happened. Doing anything about it got bogged down in trying to figure out what kind of crash made (more?) sense for an effect so potent as Rage, and the fact that SS without Rage is numerically lackluster except for Foot Stomp.

 

But Castle doesn't deserve the blame for the Rage changes.

 

I would dump rage and bump us SS's numbers. And no I don't give a flying fark if that would violate some rule about cottages.

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6 hours ago, Taboo said:

 

Would you take Rage with less crash and no stacking?

 

A new powerset that doesn't have Rage at all would totally make sense.

yes, i actively avoid stacking except in rare circumstances.  very very end of a boss fight.  2 crashes?  i F-ing hate one crash...

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4 hours ago, arcane said:

It’s certainly reasonable to dislike the power because of its crash, but that doesn’t change the fact that it would be overpowered with no crash and no other tweaks - as it would basically just be perma-build up then.

To be fair, it would need a tweak.  Even if I did not subscribe to the rebalancing I would do it just for politics sake.  people will hate it anyways but at least you throw something in that direction.

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4 hours ago, Myrmidon said:


Actually, I really hate it because Super Strength is being held back by the Hulk concept, which is better replicated with Fury. The raging Super Strength character is not prolific in the genre and shouldn’t be the cornerstone concept of the power set.

THIS.  How many characters in the comics that have Super Strength have rage issues.  The Tick?  Not really.  Superman? P{ffft.  There are a few, even besides the green guy.  But all?  Freaking ALL???  Really?  How can I write backstories that are all RAGE RAGE RAGE????

Edited by Snarky
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3 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

You know, I'm certain that I've read this same statement at least 1,000 times since I started playing CoH. I'm not certain this is true.

 

Look, I have a 50 Willpower/SS Tanker. The same one that I had on the retail servers. I played him a lot. I monitor the damage bonus so that I always know that Rage has crashed. It's usually the only way that I know that it has crashed. Maybe it'd be different if he was SR/SS, I don't know.

 

During that short window where I can do no damage I use Taunt and Nemesis Staff to get more attention focused on me. So the Rage crash is almost meaningless to me. You know what would happen if it was removed? Nothing. I'd barely notice. So how overpowered would that be?

Try that in Master attempt Incarnate Trials.  Sorry guys, i cant help you burn down anybody.  I am doing ZERO damage right now.  As it is Blaster Tankers are thriving in the new world.  Crashless Nukes, softcapped Defenses, Teleporting.  But Heaven Forbid you smooth RAGE crash or give Invulnerability a functioning tier 9....it might break the game

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4 hours ago, Snarky said:

Try that in Master attempt Incarnate Trials.  Sorry guys, i cant help you burn down anybody.  I am doing ZERO damage right now.  As it is Blaster Tankers are thriving in the new world.  Crashless Nukes, softcapped Defenses, Teleporting.  But Heaven Forbid you smooth RAGE crash or give Invulnerability a functioning tier 9....it might break the game

Not disagreeing with you that the Armor Tier 9's need to be looked at. Or that end game Blasters can't become overpowered.

 

But... Master Incarnate Trials aren't supposed to be something that power sets are balanced around. Also, damage isn't a Tanker's primary focus, that's why it's their secondary power set. No one, especially not those soft-capped blasters, should be upset that a Tanker isn't doing damage for 10 seconds.

 

Now that being said if Rage's crash were removed in some way I wouldn't be unhappy about it. I've already mentioned that, as long as it continues to buff damage in some way, it wouldn't break the Cottage Rule.

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"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire posts, the posts become warning points. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."

 

Being constantly offended doesn't mean you're right, it means you're too narcissistic to tolerate opinions different than your own.

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