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On 4/30/2021 at 6:54 AM, Snarky said:

Invul is great, until you get around to Toxic/Psi at which point you go from being "lead" to running around looking for medics and defenders to hide behind.  Dark/Dark has neither of those issues. 

I mean, they have these nice things called Set Bonuses, and you can stack them to help cover a sets weak points. 

Sure, Vanilla Invulnerability has a giant gaping weakness there. Exactly as it's intended to have. 

 

It's not that hard to focus your set bonus selection for Toxic/Psi resist and produce an Invulnerable character who pretty much says "Bring it" regardless of damage type. 

Are you going to get to 90% psi resist?  Probably not. How often does matter?  Perhaps on a verrrry specific challenge mode of a few particular trials.  And on those trials, you're not alone and it's no great sin to let your SUPPORT characters.... SUPPORT you!

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On 4/29/2021 at 2:39 PM, Snarky said:

How many characters in the comics that have Super Strength have rage issues.

 

Super Strength and Rage are a berserker concept. Increased strength followed by being winded or fatigued are very common..

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8 minutes ago, Taboo said:

Super Strength and Rage are a berserker concept. Increased strength followed by being winded or fatigued are very common..

Thank you for the insight, Captain Obvious. After 17 years of City of Heroes no one realized that until you mentioned it. You've truly done everyone a great service.

 

Now, how about Superman's "rage issues"? Or Colossus? What's that you say? Neither of those characters have rage issues? Yeah, no kidding. So why is every super strength character in the City of Heroes universe required to be a rampaging psycho with rage issues?

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If you'd rather be Lame-O the Wonder Clown instead of Homelander then you're playing the wrong game.

 

Thank you doesn't even come close to the gratitude I have for the Homecoming developers for resurrecting Paragon City.

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4 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

So why is every super strength character in the City of Heroes universe required to be a rampaging psycho with rage issues?

 

giphy.gif

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1 minute ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Thank you for the insight, Captain Obvious. After 17 years of City of Heroes no one realized that until you mentioned it. You've truly done everyone a great service.

 

Now, how about Superman's "rage issues"? Or Colossus? What's that you say? Neither of those characters have rage issues? Yeah, no kidding. So why is every super strength character in the City of Heroes universe required to be a rampaging psycho with rage issues?

 

Because they didn't make a "Hulk Smash" tree AND a "Calm Strength" tree.

And like has been said earlier, Brutes literally didn't exist at the time it was written, so they went with Rage as a mechanic for SS.  

 

Was that a good design choice?  We can smack that around all day long.  Fact of the matter is, it happened. 

And there's a not incosequential number of people who are actually perfectly fine and dandy with SS as it is now. I'm one. 

 

I am not and have never said it's an accurate representation of all strong comic book characters ever. I don't believe the original developers ever intended to capture that. They went with one form of it "Hulk Smash" that they thought would be sufficiently iconic and that people would find fun.  Based on the number of Super Strength characters levelled to 50 on both LIVE and Homecoming, they can't have been completely off their rockers.

 

Should it be redesigned now?  Maybe, maybe not.  But it's plenty playable, even if the rage crash does drive certain vocal folks up the wall.  I wouldn't consider it tragic if it were changed, but I honestly don't feel a NEED for it to be changed, and I actually enjoy the mechanic as it exists right now. Even if that's incomprehensible to some.  Good news?  It's not my decision to make. 

 

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1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Now, how about Superman's "rage issues"? Or Colossus? What's that you say?

 

It could be said that they self regulate.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Thank you for the insight, Captain Obvious. After 17 years of City of Heroes no one realized that until you mentioned it. You've truly done everyone a great service.

 

Now, how about Superman's "rage issues"? Or Colossus? What's that you say? Neither of those characters have rage issues? Yeah, no kidding. So why is every super strength character in the City of Heroes universe required to be a rampaging psycho with rage issues?

 

You know you can't make Superman in CoX.

Super Strength has Rage. fact

Rage is optional. fact

Those lame limitations exist, but are not lame or limiting for everyone. Capeesh?

 

The "How many characters in the comics that have Super Strength have rage issues." comment I was responding to seemed to push CoX's Super Strength concept onto every strong character ever. That is not the case. CoX's Super Strength is a berzerker concept and likely skates obvious i.p. conflicts. Deal with it already.

 

Want to petition for a different set? Do so! I welcome more power sets.

Edited by Taboo
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3 hours ago, MTeague said:

Was that a good design choice?  We can smack that around all day long.  Fact of the matter is, it happened. 

And there's a not incosequential number of people who are actually perfectly fine and dandy with SS as it is now. I'm one. 

 

It is my firm belief Super Strength should be left pretty much alone.  For this reason and a few others.  Okay, basically this (people like it) But also because it perfectly fits a significant percentage of Strength characters.

 

There needs to be (NEEDS!!!) a second set, that fulfills the character concepts that are not manic depressive Rage monsters.  I am not kidding.  The changes do not need to be huge.  Tweak SS to be solid damage with no buff and throw something else in the buff choice.  Dont reinvent the wheel and screw it up.  But make a set that fulfills a literal metric ton of character concepts in OUR GENRE that have Strength and NO Rage ISSUES!

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1 minute ago, Snarky said:

It is my firm belief Super Strength should be left pretty much alone.  For this reason and a few others.  Okay, basically this (people like it) But also because it perfectly fits a significant percentage of Strength characters.

 

There needs to be (NEEDS!!!) a second set, that fulfills the character concepts that are not manic depressive Rage monsters.  I am not kidding.  The changes do not need to be huge.  Tweak SS to be solid damage with no buff and throw something else in the buff choice.  Dont reinvent the wheel and screw it up.  But make a set that fulfills a literal metric ton of character concepts in OUR GENRE that have Strength and NO Rage ISSUES!

 

If we define "need" as "really really really want", okay  🙂

But that's standard gamer terminology really.  Just a pet peeve of mine.

Overall?  I'm on board with a Non-Rage-Powerset being created.

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7 minutes ago, Snarky said:

IThere needs to be (NEEDS!!!) a second set, that fulfills the character concepts that are not manic depressive Rage monsters.

Isn't that basically what Street Justice is?

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If you'd rather be Lame-O the Wonder Clown instead of Homelander then you're playing the wrong game.

 

Thank you doesn't even come close to the gratitude I have for the Homecoming developers for resurrecting Paragon City.

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16 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Isn't that basically what Street Justice is?

....NO  Street Justice is a Martial Art combo set.  By definition not a "Super Strength set"  

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22 minutes ago, MTeague said:

 

If we define "need" as "really really really want", okay  🙂

But that's standard gamer terminology really.  Just a pet peeve of mine.

Overall?  I'm on board with a Non-Rage-Powerset being created.

No, we really really wanted Super Strength when it first came out to not be only fit for Hulk clones.  Now most of the concepts we have been dying to play are on life support or buried and only visited on Memorial day.  We NEED an update.

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Statesman was the flagship hero of the entire game, the Superman expy, a flying brick, the example super strength character.

 

....and the set doesn't fit his character in the slightest.

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The idiot formerly known as Lord Khorak

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47 minutes ago, SaintD said:

Statesman was the flagship hero of the entire game, the Superman expy, a flying brick, the example super strength character.

 

....and the set doesn't fit his character in the slightest.

 

One of the HeroClix versions of Statesman has both Super Strength and  Battle Fury... up until the point where he got Pulse Wave. 🤣

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1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Isn't that basically what Street Justice is?

If anything, Energy Melee without the glowy hands feels way more Super Strength.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Taboo said:

 

Super Strength and Rage are a berserker concept. Increased strength followed by being winded or fatigued are very common..

 

Wasn't the HULK's ENTIRE SCHITK at one point "the angrier he gets the stronger he gets?" Or is my memory off on Marvel Comics?

 

EDIT: NVM I didn't read the rest of the thread after that point. LOL

Edited by golstat2003
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18 hours ago, MTeague said:

I mean, they have these nice things called Set Bonuses, and you can stack them to help cover a sets weak points. 

Sure, Vanilla Invulnerability has a giant gaping weakness there. Exactly as it's intended to have. 

 

It's not that hard to focus your set bonus selection for Toxic/Psi resist and produce an Invulnerable character who pretty much says "Bring it" regardless of damage type. 

Are you going to get to 90% psi resist?  Probably not. How often does matter?  Perhaps on a verrrry specific challenge mode of a few particular trials.  And on those trials, you're not alone and it's no great sin to let your SUPPORT characters.... SUPPORT you!

It has been said by much better builders and players than me "Trying to fill the Toxic/Psi hole on Invul will lead you to neglecting/gimping the build"  or words to that effect.  On Invulnerability you need to be focused on getting S/L Defense up, pumping the big resists (S/L is easy, but you want to cap Energy Res too).  Then depending on the melee set (or ranged, hi Sentinels) you want to chase other build goals like Recharge (Dark/Invul Brutes, Invul/Dark Tanks feed off high Recharge like a Formula 1 driver feeds off speed).  Other builds have other needs.  What you dont want to do is take an Invulnerability and start pouring every set bonus into Ps/Toxic resistance and end up with mediocre resistance to that and a sub par build in all other ways.  If you want something good for Minds of Mayhem Incarnate Trial (or other rare/very rare Psi/Toxic enemies) just roll a Dark Armor.  You are welcome.  Invulnerability is incredible for the other 98% of the game.  

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13 hours ago, Snarky said:

It is my firm belief Super Strength should be left pretty much alone.  For this reason and a few others.  Okay, basically this (people like it) But also because it perfectly fits a significant percentage of Strength characters.

 

There needs to be (NEEDS!!!) a second set, that fulfills the character concepts that are not manic depressive Rage monsters.  I am not kidding.  The changes do not need to be huge.  Tweak SS to be solid damage with no buff and throw something else in the buff choice.  Dont reinvent the wheel and screw it up.  But make a set that fulfills a literal metric ton of character concepts in OUR GENRE that have Strength and NO Rage ISSUES!

OR! Try not putting too many of your roleplay eggs in the technically-the-name-of-one-power basket and pretend it is so?


I don’t roleplay, but surely people manage it in reasonable ways without demanding the devs clutter up the game with weird kind-of-copies of powersets?

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9 minutes ago, Snarky said:

It has been said by much better builders and players than me "Trying to fill the Toxic/Psi hole on Invul will lead you to neglecting/gimping the build"  or words to that effect.  On Invulnerability you need to be focused on getting S/L Defense up, pumping the big resists (S/L is easy, but you want to cap Energy Res too).  Then depending on the melee set (or ranged, hi Sentinels) you want to chase other build goals like Recharge (Dark/Invul Brutes, Invul/Dark Tanks feed off high Recharge like a Formula 1 driver feeds off speed).  Other builds have other needs.  What you dont want to do is take an Invulnerability and start pouring every set bonus into Ps/Toxic resistance and end up with mediocre resistance to that and a sub par build in all other ways.  If you want something good for Minds of Mayhem Incarnate Trial (or other rare/very rare Psi/Toxic enemies) just roll a Dark Armor.  You are welcome.  Invulnerability is incredible for the other 98% of the game.  

You kinda right here though. I kind of hate the MoM trial, but doing it on my Dark tanker just tickles 🙂

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7 hours ago, Vanden said:

Well the Hulk doesn’t get tired, so that means the only thing that might exclusively fit the Hulk in the set is the name of Rage. So you’re basically saying the name of one power is enough to invalidate a character concept.

Wow.  You went out of your way to miss the point.  Kudos.

 

Many clones (in comic world....also in real world actually) are weaker than the Prime version and suffer ill effects that the Prime does not.

 

But beyond that (obvious to me anyways) difference.  The concept of Rage increasing Strength (like the Hulk for instance) is not uncommon in storytelling.  Therefore I call for Rage Strength Monsters to all be lumped into that trope.  There are a large number of Super Strength characters in storytelling that have NO rage issues.  Superman (might get angry but this has no influence on his Strength, and indeed he is usually written calm), Colossus, not an angry guy.  The Tick, not angry.  Usually quite carefree and happy actually.  Does have a "Drama Power" whereby he gets stronger depending on the needs of the story arc.  But not more angry.  If anything he seems more clueless than usual.  Wait, thats not possible, scratch that. 

 

Basically there are many story arcs that have a Super Strength Hero who is not a Rage monster.  The Hulk is the quintessential Rage monster.  Therefor I refer to Rage Strentgh characters as Hulk Clones, whether or not they crash.  The crash (which I dislike but have played for literally years of in game time) is not what kills Super Strength on certain characters for me.  It is the CONCEPT of always being pissed and having to write that into the backstory.

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5 minutes ago, arcane said:

OR! Try not putting too many of your roleplay eggs in the technically-the-name-of-one-power basket and pretend it is so?


I don’t roleplay, but surely people manage it in reasonable ways without demanding the devs clutter up the game with weird kind-of-copies of powersets?

Rage is the defining power of the Super Strength set. Thats like taking Ice, recoloring it and saying you are running a blood power.  Okay, you CAN do that.  But there are so many things that do not fit well on close inspection that it is just never going to work, FOR ME. Maybe for you.  enjoy.  

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16 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Rage is the defining power of the Super Strength set. Thats like taking Ice, recoloring it and saying you are running a blood power.  Okay, you CAN do that.  But there are so many things that do not fit well on close inspection that it is just never going to work, FOR ME. Maybe for you.  enjoy.  

Well there’s your issue: you’re supposed to run red water blast for blood powers!

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28 minutes ago, arcane said:

Well there’s your issue: you’re supposed to run red water blast for blood powers!

Then I have two problems.  Why is the blood Ice cold sometimes.  And Lava hot other times?  I can't write for this stuff.  Sigh lol

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