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Rollback to Issue 19... sort of.


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6 minutes ago, TheZag said:

I would like to see increased rewards when using the challenge settings if only to encourage players to use them more.  There is some interest but not many players jump at the chance of a taskforce taking twice as long on hard mode for the same reward.

 

That's been bandied about for ... ever. It basically never goes anywhere because doing it right is downright tough. The settings can't be so hard that it just becomes a curiosity no matter how good the reward, but they can't be easy enough with a big enough bonus reward that they becomes the One True Way to TF. (Bearing in mind that becoming The One True Way means people actively reject players/characters who aren't up to the challenge.) Keeping it up to date as the game evolves is another layer of difficulty on the design.

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On 5/1/2021 at 12:49 AM, Sasquatch said:

I think it would be great to have one Rollback server, with Incarnates disabled entirely. Just think of all the great new content the Homecoming devs could add balanced around the original power level of ATs.

 

That will be $6,000/mo. How would you like to pay for that? American Express?

 

On 5/1/2021 at 12:49 AM, Sasquatch said:

I hadn't realised until this point how much power creep the Incarnate system really introduced (I stopped playing on the live servers just after Alpha slots were added to the game, and it shut down by the time I wanted to return), and I have to say, I don't enjoy the game when ATs serve no real purpose. That's what I loved about CoX; everyone had a role to play and had to work together, but now?

 

This is fairly spot on. There has been discussions about removing incarnates from regular content or minimizing the impact as well as adding additional incarnates.

Incarnates as a whole are a bit of a mess. From lack of appropriate content to un-intuitive implementation and learning curve.. it is messy. That said, great for scooting the bar in a commercial game..

The concept of being able to cover weaknesses, add variety/flavor and allowing archetype lines to blur a bit is a great one.

That said, if the majority of players are choosing the same things.. that's not much variety/flavor.

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"Homecoming is not perfect but it is still better than the alternative.. at least so far" - Unknown  (Wise words Unknown!)

 

Sooo.. I guess I am taking a non-voluntary break until November?!

 

Si vis pacem, para bellum

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I don't know if this has been suggested before, but it occurred to me that you could level to 44, turn XP off, then invite folks to do non-incarnate content.  While I agree that the incarnate power creep is real and huge, there are ways to make the game challenging.  All you need to do is find like minded players.

 

That would only prevent you from running Mender Silos and Reichsman TF, and obviously all the incarnate TFs and Trials.  That's still a LOT of content.

 

With a little creativity, you can make the game as easy or as hard as you want.  I know EV on Excelsior runs "Hardcore" Master of ITFs - No inspirations, deaths, or temp powers with players debuffed and enemies buffed.  Sometimes he makes those with all 8 of a certain AT.

 

All that said, I wouldn't mind a "no incarnate" setting on TFs and ALL the TF settings added to standard missions and arcs.

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On 5/1/2021 at 3:49 AM, Sasquatch said:

I don't think I like the incarnate system.

I don't agree with rolling back to Issue 19 but you are not alone regarding Incarnates. Revoking Incarnates would only piss the player base off. Ideally I would like to see a special rules server without them, but this will end up further spiting an already fragmented CoX community.

 

Incarnates should have been a system tailored to preserve and amplify AT uniqueness. It doesn't need to be completely unique for every AT as I would expect some cross over with related ATs.

 

As Incarnates stand I think most of the system is pure lazy design trash including level shifts (yep I'm in the minority with an unpopular opinion). Making everyone part time buffers, pet wrangles, etc was a mistake for the game's longevity. Given the limited game mechanics and engine its probably one of the only approachs the devs had given the time they had between iterations.

 

Instead of resetting or removing Incarnates, an option could be to create a parallel system that is mutually exclusive with Incarnates; allow players to choose which system they choose to participate in. What the system would look like depends on what vision the current game custodians have for CoX.

 

 

 

 


 


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2 hours ago, TheZag said:

There is some interest but not many players jump at the chance of a taskforce taking twice as long on hard mode for the same reward.

Not entirely for the same reward, although I concede that once you've pushed it to +4/x8, anything more is just bragging rights and personal satisfaction. Getting increased rewards for each of the challenge settings would add some incentive to play them.

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On 5/1/2021 at 12:49 AM, Sasquatch said:

 spent most of my time farming and testing multiple builds in AE.

 

 

 

Okay, I couldn't just skip past this in the beginning of your post.  Farming, AE, and "testing multiple builds", aka min maxing.   

 

If you really farmed your way to 50 and had an almost instantly maxed out character, one suggestion I'd have is instead to level up the "slow" way.  You will get more of a challenge that way and you'll have more time in pre-incarnate content.   It is still easier than the "old days" (as the whole issue goes beyond just incarnate powers), but it does feel closer to those earlier times.   

 

You can always exemp back down to under level 45 post 50 as others have suggested, but to me even that isn't quite the same.  Exemping down you have more powers, more slots, extra accolades, more set bonuses, and you'll always be at even level with the team leader instead of at -1.  Join a higher level team while leveling up can get you that +5 difficulty!   Doing the content while actually leveling just has a very different feel.

 

Now, that doesn't fix incarnate level stuff and I agree post incarnate needs some work, but that's exactly why personally I'm never in a race to get there.   

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1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

I'm going to go there and say I would support an increase in the recharge time of Blast set T9s and Judgement powers. Not back to pre-i24, but slightly longer than currently.

 

Sure as long as we reduce the effectiveness of softcapping defense also. To be fair.

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1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

In what sense would that be fair? That would hurt Ranged as well as melee.

 

The powercreep in end game that everyone hems and haws about is not just because of damage. It's also because folks are able to make pretty much unkillable characters at endgame.

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Granted, I think folks make waayyy too big deal about teams steam rolling things. Teams of superheros smashing things to bits is  . . . pretty much the genre of superheroes.

 

I've always been of the opinion that there should be harder difficulty options if some folks find the current endgame too easy.

 

EDIT: Also whenever it's suggested those folks who just find the game too easy try fighting mobs like Rularu, Carnival or any of the other groups that can and will stop most steam rolling teams in their tracks, the response is often crickets.

 

 

Edited by golstat2003
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I don't think nerfing the entire playerbase to cater to the playstyle of a vocal minority is the best course. Adding in more incarnate level content would be great. Reducing the effectiveness of existing powers and builds (whether that be softcapping, incarnate powers, Blaster attacks, etc.) would displease more people than it would please.

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11 hours ago, Wavicle said:

There just needs to be harder stuff to fight.

 

There are AE arcs designed to be very challenging even for full incarnates.  it's easier for most to cry nerf than to run difficult content that already exists or to form non-incarnate teams.    not saying that's what you're doing.

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1 hour ago, Judasace said:

I don't think nerfing the entire playerbase to cater to the playstyle of a vocal minority is the best course. Adding in more incarnate level content would be great. Reducing the effectiveness of existing powers and builds (whether that be softcapping, incarnate powers, Blaster attacks, etc.) would displease more people than it would please.

 

Agreed. But every time "this game is too easy" (no, it's only easy when you choose to make it that way) nerfing damage powers or softcapping always comes up. And some want to do one without the other. My point of posting what I did was to show that you'd need to deal with BOTH sides of the equation if you're serious about dealing with power creep. Killing mobs faster is just one part of it. Being near un-killable is the other part.

 

The problem isn't JUST about nukes or judgements. The problem isn't just about everyone being so unkillable that support "feels" like they are useless. It's a combination of things.

 

This ofcourse assumes we all agree it's a problem. We clearly DO NOT.

 

Personally I couldn't care less if the base game as is is easy. The proper solution IMO is to add harder content or more difficulty options. Leave the rest of us alone.

Edited by golstat2003
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7 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Agreed. But every time "this game is too easy" (no, it's only easy when you choose to make it that way) nerfing damage powers or softcapping always comes up. And some want to do one without the other. My point of posting what I did was to show that you'd need to deal with BOTH sides of the equation if you're serious about dealing with power creep. Killing mobs faster is just one part of it. Being near un-killable is the other part.

 

The problem isn't JUST about nukes or judgements. The problem isn't just about everyone being so unkillable that support "feels" like they are useless. It's a combination of things.

 

This ofcourse assumes we all agree it's a problem. We clearly DO NOT.

 

Personally I couldn't care less if the base game as is is easy. The proper solution IMO is to add harder content or more difficulty options. Leave the rest of us alone.

 

 

Honestly, the Homecoming player base is as big of an issue (or even bigger), than softcapped defenses, crashless nukes, and Incarnate powers.  There is actually plenty of difficult content in the game, they just choose to never run it.  Red side content is more difficult than blue side content.  Gold side content is more difficult than red side content.  But what does the majority of the Homecoming player base do?  They continually run the easiest content (AE fire farms, PI Council radio farms, etc.), on the easiest side (blue side), refuse to play the more difficult content, and then cry that the game is too easy.  It makes absolutely no sense.

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On 5/1/2021 at 2:49 AM, Sasquatch said:

I signed up for Homecoming, close to it's launch, in May 2019, but I've only played sporadically, and spent most of my time farming and testing multiple builds in AE.

 

Myself and two friends, who also played back on the live servers, decided it was time to start badge hunting with main characters, so yesterday I started an STF (dating myself), because it's something we did quite a bit in the past.

 

I recruited a mix of ATs which should have been a good team for STF, but quickly realised once we got rolling that there was no need whatsoever. The whole team just piled on the four patrons with complete abandon, then proceeded to ignore Recluse, smash down the yellow and green towers, and tickle Recluse to death. Honestly, I was so disappointed at how ridiculously easy it was.

 

I hadn't realised until this point how much power creep the Incarnate system really introduced (I stopped playing on the live servers just after Alpha slots were added to the game, and it shut down by the time I wanted to return), and I have to say, I don't enjoy the game when ATs serve no real purpose. That's what I loved about CoX; everyone had a role to play and had to work together, but now?

 

I don't think I like the incarnate system. It added what, 7 incarnate trials which were designed for unlocking your incarnate slots? No one does those trials, so being overlevelled only serves to ruin the rest of the game content. Am I missing something here? 

 

I think it would be great to have one Rollback server, with Incarnates disabled entirely. Just think of all the great new content the Homecoming devs could add balanced around the original power level of ATs.

 

For now, my enthusiasm has been sapped by what I witnessed happen to poor old Recluse.

So...enthusiasm, hmm... 
Only played sporadically.
Stopped playing just after NEW content and game mechanics were introduced.

I don't see any enthusiasm. It seems to me you didn't like the game much the first time around. 

So - that may be harsh, so forgive me - I'll apologize and say I'm assuming things. Here's what you may not know: 
You don't need to slot anything in your alpha slot, or any other incarnate slot. 
You don't need to use the best IOs available. You can use level 50 training origin enhancements if you really want to. You don't have to use enhancements at all. 

 

When you start a task force, there's an option to debuff the players, or buff the npcs. Or both. You can opt to keep things easy - but mark your time and try to improve the next go around. So many ways to keep things interesting - assuming you enjoy the game in the first place. 

And I could certainly be wrong, but that isn't the case here. You didn't play every day. You played sporadically - and stopped playing when the game gives you new content and new figurative carrots to work towards. Granted, the way the incarnate reward system was set up wasn't polished. Shards, threads, astrals, emps.. too many currencies and none of them dropped at a particularly rewarding rate. But, when you're charging folks by the month, the reward system makes more sense. 

So, please understand, I don't mean to be demeaning or condescending, but what you want out of the game - that isn't what the game is. There is a server where things may be more your speed, outside of the homecoming servers. Another private server. I think they're running an issue 0 game - at least, I've heard there's one, but no idea what it's called. 

Certainly the Rebirth server has a slower reward system, so at least getting to 50 and getting all tricked out will take a lot longer than it does here. Perhaps that would be more suitable for you. 

If you do like the community here, you might just go for the more challenging runs and not use your incarnate powers. Forgo the use of non-AT powers. See how that plays for you. But to use the resources of an entire server when the options are already on these servers for you to essentially do the same things...isn't that a bit foolish? 

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34 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

 

Honestly, the Homecoming player base is as big of an issue (or even bigger), than softcapped defenses, crashless nukes, and Incarnate powers.  There is actually plenty of difficult content in the game, they just choose to never run it.  Red side content is more difficult than blue side content.  Gold side content is more difficult than red side content.  But what does the majority of the Homecoming player base do?  They continually run the easiest content (AE fire farms, PI Council radio farms, etc.), on the easiest side (blue side), refuse to play the more difficult content, and then cry that the game is too easy.  It makes absolutely no sense.

This here is something. Bigger MMO’s have all content pretty much running around the clock. If we had our hardest content running that constantly, it’d be quite a bit different than the current status quo.

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34 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

 

Honestly, the Homecoming player base is as big of an issue (or even bigger), than softcapped defenses, crashless nukes, and Incarnate powers.  There is actually plenty of difficult content in the game, they just choose to never run it.  Red side content is more difficult than blue side content.  Gold side content is more difficult than red side content.  But what does the majority of the Homecoming player base do?  They continually run the easiest content (AE fire farms, PI Council radio farms, etc.), on the easiest side (blue side), refuse to play the more difficult content, and then cry that the game is too easy.  It makes absolutely no sense.

 

A yup. For the majority of the playerbase and how they play this game as their "relax after a long day of work or school and have a superhero power fantasy of bashing some heads" makes perfect sense. Which is why I keep saying a majority of players DO NOT GIVE A FLYING FARK if the game is easy. They like it that way. Personally if I want to play a challenging game where I still get to group with folks I go play FFXIV Online. Challenging single player game: one of the Souls games.

 

I'm here for the relaxing "super hero power fantasy" aspect. 🙂 When I want to hurt myself with COH mobs, I go look for carnies, any of the newer mobs in the "Wards" or play the more difficult incarnate trials (on the rare times they are running lol)

 

Let me put it this way: It says something that the most run Incarnate Trials are the BAF and LAM.

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What do you expect when many of us have had over 10 years of gameplay to practice with? You're eventually going to be on a team with players that are REALLY GOOD at the game. Metas have changed and there have been buffs/nerfs, but overall it's been the same old combat system since the beginning. If you change incarnates or softcaps, experienced players are just going to fill that void with inspirations or temp powers. Players have been solo'ing AV's/GM's and +4/x8 content since before issue 19. 

 

I think @golstat2003 nailed it. I log on to have fun blowing bad guys up for an hour or two, make some money for my next build, and play around in the costume creator. If I want something challenging, I'll try The Really Hard Way, +4 Katie Hannon, solo +4/x8 MoITF, etc... But honestly I think you're playing the wrong game if you want something that's going to make you sweat. 

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Wow, the first reply to what I said is a "If you don't like it, don't play."

 

Also, I have no issues with speed runs.  The issue starts when changes are made to the game to make speed runs (or whatever challenge in the game) easier.  You do speed runs when you and your team know how to get the job done.  They're making changes that bypassing objectives for the game.  Eliminating the need to click objectives at the same time, for example.  It was inconvenient, not impossible.  They might as well put in an auto complete for TFs and Trials.

 

Look at infiltrate, its tailor made for stealthing.  There is nothing wrong with stealthing, but you could do it before, it didn't need a special power.  The power got made when someone doesn't want to take an extra power or choose an AT that could do it.  Or take a look at making your powers for the alpha slot; you can use threads instead of shards. 

 

Why not just make 1 AT that can do everything, no weaknesses, all the travel powers, can solo everything.  No risk, no challenge, no point.  If you look deeper, one of the things that make heroes interesting is that they have weaknesses, they can't do everything.  Overcoming that is what makes their stories interesting.  That is what was meant to make the game play interesting.  TFs and Trials were meant to require teamwork, and the variety of ATs and builds gave you the opportunity to find different ways to do it.

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