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Okay, how's this?

 

They aren't equivalent powers and you are unnecessarily conflating them by calling them counterparts. Just using the position in a tier list would be like saying Consume and Boost Range are counterparts to each other just because they're both available at level 28 in different Blaster Secondaries. THEY DO DIFFERENT THINGS.

 

The "counterpart" for Frozen Aura that you should be looking at in Fire Manipulation is Fire Sword Circle. A click power that does damage in a PBAoE.

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Posted (edited)

Manipulation sets don’t have much symmetry in the first place. After the t1 immobilize (or KB thrust), build up equivalent, and sustain buff, it’s all a free for all from there. But siolfir’s answer also has you covered.

Edited by arcane
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Posted (edited)

Would you say that due to the asymmetrical nature of the sets, that there's necessarily a stronger set?

 

Let me put it another way... do YOU see ice being used as much as fire?

Edited by Herotu
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47 minutes ago, Herotu said:

Would you say that due to the asymmetrical nature of the sets, that there's necessarily a stronger set?

 

Let me put it another way... do YOU see ice being used as much as fire?

Realistically, both sets are likely in the minority now-a-days but if we're trying to determine which is the one closest to the bottom of the barrel, I could see Ice Manipulation picked less often and that likely has more to do with Ice Manipulation being a CC oriented set with several powers doing 0 damage while Fire Manipulation, every power in the set either does damage or increases damage.

 

If self-sustain/survival was more an emphasis of a build, I would likely choose Ice Manipulation if I could also either capitalize off the sleep or the knockdown whereas I'd be mostly relying on the fear in Hot Feet to be keeping mobs away from me (if it's still toggled on).

 

On the prospect of making Frozen Aura a toggle, beyond the power having the word "aura" in it, it doesn't really benefit a Blaster who wants as few toggles to bounce around in case they ever do get mezzed.  If the question is is Ice Manipulation too weak or is Fire Manipulation too strong, why not just ask that?

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12 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Realistically, both sets are likely in the minority now-a-days but if we're trying to determine which is the one closest to the bottom of the barrel ...

Good sir did you really just allude to Fire Manip being bottom of the barrel? It is top tier lol. 

 

Ice Manipulation does seriously need some help though and it has improvement opportunities just about every way you look at it:

Freezing Touch damage scale, could literally be more than doubled.

Frozen Fists damage scale (compare cast time and DPA to Energy Punch, Charged Brawl, Taser, etc)

Ice Sword damage scale (compare cast time and DPA to the same above) both powers are uncompetitive with other blaster melee attacks

Frozen Aura zero damage, competing with Time Bomb for most exceptionally useless t9.

Ice Patch cast time > not sure if this was cleaned up with the recent Ice Melee pass

Shiver, poor in comparison to other blaster CC tools. Ineffective for mitigating damage for a blaster that needs hard control not soft control for alpha mitigation. Shiver only reduces damage after an enemy has gotten all it's attacks off against you.

 

I kind of always wanted Blaster:Ice Manip to have a toned down version of arctic air. Even if it was a mag 2 confuse with reduced radius. The set needs to be able to actually deal damage though and no amount of control available is going to mitigate that shortcoming.

 

 

Currently on fire.

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46 minutes ago, DreadShinobi said:

Frozen Aura zero damage, competing with Time Bomb for most exceptionally useless t9.

Zero damage, you say?

 

Might want to check that again. It's not as much as Fire Sword Circle, true, but it follows the standard damage formula for a 20 second recharge, 10' radius PBAoE.

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5 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Zero damage, you say?

 

Might want to check that again. It's not as much as Fire Sword Circle, true, but it follows the standard damage formula for a 20 second recharge, 10' radius PBAoE.

Oh then my mids is not up to date.

Currently on fire.

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1 hour ago, Vanden said:

Ice Manipulation is very good now. It’s by far the safest Blaster secondary, which definitely means something on an AT that notably lacks in survivability. 

Quite the claim! Since absorb is not uncommon, are you really just talking about -recharge, -damage, and ice patch? Doesn’t strike me as all that special on paper compared to (1) a set that protects you by encouraging ranged play (TA/Devices) or (2) Drain Psyche, but it’s not nothing. Would be happy to hear your thoughts as this is one set I haven’t tried yet since live (along with dark, electric, and martial I believe).

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18 hours ago, Herotu said:

Would you say that due to the asymmetrical nature of the sets, that there's necessarily a stronger set?

 

Let me put it another way... do YOU see ice being used as much as fire?

All depends on how you want to play. Fire is always going to be meta for raw damage by design, but you have to also think about how much you want to be in range vs. melee etc. Fire is used more than Ice, but, if you don’t want to be a blapper, Fire may very well be the worst of them all in that scenario.

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4 minutes ago, arcane said:

Quite the claim! Since absorb is not uncommon, are you really just talking about -recharge, -damage, and ice patch? Doesn’t strike me as all that special on paper compared to (1) a set that protects you by encouraging ranged play (TA/Devices) or (2) Drain Psyche, but it’s not nothing. Would be happy to hear your thoughts as this is one set I haven’t tried yet since live (along with dark, electric, and martial I believe).

Ice has tools for everything. Shiver and Frigid Protection keep enemies at range, while Frozen Aura (which is worth taking now) and Freezing Touch control enemies that get into melee. Ice Patch works for both ranges; sure, you can plant it and just stand in it, but you can also plant it a fall back a bit, using it as a choke point. If you haven’t tried Ice since Live, you’ve never tried Frigid Protection’s massive 30-foot radius slow aura, which naturally puts the 10-foot radius it had as Chilling Embrace to shame.

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10 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Ice has tools for everything. Shiver and Frigid Protection keep enemies at range, while Frozen Aura (which is worth taking now) and Freezing Touch control enemies that get into melee. Ice Patch works for both ranges; sure, you can plant it and just stand in it, but you can also plant it a fall back a bit, using it as a choke point. If you haven’t tried Ice since Live, you’ve never tried Frigid Protection’s massive 30-foot radius slow aura, which naturally puts the 10-foot radius it had as Chilling Embrace to shame.

Ice/Ice Blaster was my very first toon i0, but it lacked so much of what we have today. Absorb/recovery, wide radius chilling embrace, frozen aura damage, quick ice patch cast, and I can’t even remember if freezing touch used to do as good of damage. Wasn’t worth much besides Build Up and Shiver.

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Ice/Ice is where I first saw the word blastroller bandied about. 

 

If you're firmly "Damage Is King and I'm Softcapped Anyway", then okay, the mitigation tools may have absolutely no value to you. 

But the powerset combo allows for a vastly different style of play than say, a Fire/Fire blaster, and frankly, that's a Good Thing to my mind. 

 

Plus the proc'ing opportunities aren't to be sneezed at. 

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15 hours ago, DreadShinobi said:

Good sir did you really just allude to Fire Manip being bottom of the barrel? It is top tier lol. 

 

Comparatively.  I don't really keep up with how the meta holds up but sets like Mental Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Plant Manipulation and Tactical Arrow were the cream of the crop in either utility, damage, sustain or all of the above.  Sets like Electricity, Atomic, Temporal and Martial were somewhere in the middle while sets like Ice, Fire and Devices were kind of missing crucial aspects to make them outright better than other sets.

 

The actual bottom of the barrel is Ninja Training but being near the bottom is just as bad to some players trying to keeps within arms reach of the meta.

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