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9 hours ago, UberGuy said:

 

Do you mean Stalkers? Because, if so, I could not possibly disagree more. Hide/Placate + Slow AS was completely out of step with other DPS ATs' performance and pretty incompatible with large team play. The Assassin's Focus mechanic made Stalkers playable for me.

Disagree with what? That Assassin's Focus is a charging combo mechanic? That it was added to the whole AT? Or that it mostly replaced the standard Hide+AS mechanic?

 

I never said anything about liking it disliking it, just that it exists.

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1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

Disagree with what? That Assassin's Focus is a charging combo mechanic? That it was added to the whole AT? Or that it mostly replaced the standard Hide+AS mechanic?

 

I never said anything about liking it disliking it, just that it exists.

 

You said:

 

10 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Imagine them changing an entire AT to function that way while mostly discarding the rest of its style

 

... in response to Bopper talking about not liking combo mechanics. In context, that sounds like you were saying

 

"If you think that was bad..."

 

If not, my apologies for misunderstanding, but I hope you can see where it looked like that was your point.

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1 minute ago, UberGuy said:

 

You said:

 

 

... in response to Bopper talking about not liking combo mechanics. In context, that sounds like you were saying

 

"If you think that was bad..."

 

If not, my apologies for misunderstanding, but I hope you can see where it looked like that was your point.

Yes, @Bopper was expressing his dislike for certain combo mechanics, but he also expressed why he dislikes them (i.e. he feels forced to conform to the combo mechanic to feel like he is performing efficiently).

 

It's not about not liking the mechanic of combos, it's not liking the forced feel to use them or suffer the consequences.

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Just now, Naraka said:


It's because you're not paying attention.

 

Yeah, OK. So we're going to switch from debating the facts to attacking the debaters. Classy. And please don't try to put lipstick on that pig. You're saying I don't get the issue because of a failing or weakness on my side. Otherwise, you would just explain what you think I'm missing.

 

I was playing Stalkers from days after CoV release - 10/31/05 when it came out on 10/27/05. I still play Stalkers today. A Stalker was the second CoV character I created. I know what features they had, and how well (or not) they "scrapped". I also played (and still play) a number of Scrappers. I have a thing for melee DPS ATs, and play Scrappers more than the others, but Stalkers (and Brutes) both get their time. I have made Scrappers and Stalkers with the same powersets. I have a good feel for how the two ATs play in relation to one another, and a strong grasp of the power mechanics.

 

And I disagree strongly that, in objective, measurable terms, a Stalker on a team - which is usually a fast moving affair, had anything like a Scrapper's performance. Teams often prevented AS from going off. Between killing stuff before you could hit it, to aggroing spanws while you were still animating, causing AoE retaliation that both interruped the AS and broke hide, a great deal of the time I had to just scrap the old fashioned way with no special benefit for doing so. That's not a way to match Scrapper performance, when they have a higher base damage scale and random critical hits.

 

I get that liking how something plays is not objective, and performance does not imply enjoyment. But the ability to play Stalkers the original way is not much changed. Demoralize still exists, but was reduced in duration - a change that may have happened regardless of the other changes. I am not saying they didn't change. I am saying I don't see how the degree of change is so bad that the old way of playing, if someone prefers it, is somehow ruined.

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4 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Yes, @Bopper was expressing his dislike for certain combo mechanics, but he also expressed why he dislikes them (i.e. he feels forced to conform to the combo mechanic to feel like he is performing efficiently).

 

It's not about not liking the mechanic of combos, it's not liking the forced feel to use them or suffer the consequences.

 

What "consequences"?

 

Before on teams: "I often have no choice but to play in a way that doesn't leverage my AT's key features.

Before solo:  "My AT features work fine here"

 

After on teams: "On teams, if they won't let me leverage my original AT features, I have new ones I can use that make me effective in this context"

After solo: "My original AT features still work here, or I can use the new ones if I prefer"

 

If the "consequences" are that using the old way isn't as rewarding per unit time, that says something about the issues with the original mechanics. Yes, they could have tried to buff the original mechanics instead of adding a combo system on top, but retaining the reliance on being Hidden and the interruptable wind-up limits the options. Such "improvements" would have potentially removed the ability to play the old way at all.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, UberGuy said:

 

Let's remember - nothing actually changed about Placate or slow AS. They're still there. What changed was players were given an alternative to them. You can totally ignore Assassin's Focus if you want, and just occasionally get a critical hit you wouldn't have before.

This here. I don’t like the argument that a buff is bad just because it makes an existing playstyle look a bit less ideal in comparison. If you loved the existing playstyle enough, and it’s still there for you in some form, where exactly is the problem? Offering alternatives is not forcing anyone to do anything, and that applies to both the Stalker debate and the combo mechanics / Total Focus debate. If you choose to use the alternatives due to their efficiency, that is a conscious choice on your part that you value that efficiency more than the prior playstyle.

 

EDIT: Yes, I missed a whole new page of posts when I wrote this, but that doesn’t make the point incorrect, so pls don’t be mad at me.

Edited by arcane
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13 minutes ago, UberGuy said:

 

What "consequences"?

 

Before on teams: "I often have no choice but to play in a way that doesn't leverage my AT's key features.

Before solo:  "My AT features work fine here"

 

Huh? I could BU+AS on teams just fine. I can still do it, in fact. The only thing that might hinder that is not dropping back into hide by the time I reach the next spawn.

 

15 minutes ago, UberGuy said:

 

After on teams: "On teams, if they won't let me leverage my original AT features, I have new ones I can use that make me effective in this context"

After solo: "My original AT features still work here, or I can use the new ones if I prefer"

 

If the "consequences" are that using the old way isn't as rewarding per unit time, that says something about the issues with the original mechanics. Yes, they could have tried to buff the original mechanics instead of adding a combo system on top, but retaining the reliance on being Hidden and the interruptable wind-up limits the options. Such "improvements" would have potentially removed the ability to play the old way at all.

 

The consequences are primarily the BU window, crit opportunities and overall DPS suffer for effectively the same or less performance. Did you not read my post?

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32 minutes ago, UberGuy said:

 

Yeah, OK. So we're going to switch from debating the facts to attacking the debaters. Classy. And please don't try to put lipstick on that pig. You're saying I don't get the issue because of a failing or weakness on my side. Otherwise, you would just explain what you think I'm missing.

 

I was playing Stalkers from days after CoV release - 10/31/05 when it came out on 10/27/05. I still play Stalkers today. A Stalker was the second CoV character I created. I know what features they had, and how well (or not) they "scrapped". I also played (and still play) a number of Scrappers. I have a thing for melee DPS ATs, and play Scrappers more than the others, but Stalkers (and Brutes) both get their time. I have made Scrappers and Stalkers with the same powersets. I have a good feel for how the two ATs play in relation to one another, and a strong grasp of the power mechanics.

 

And I disagree strongly that, in objective, measurable terms, a Stalker on a team - which is usually a fast moving affair, had anything like a Scrapper's performance. Teams often prevented AS from going off. Between killing stuff before you could hit it, to aggroing spanws while you were still animating, causing AoE retaliation that both interruped the AS and broke hide, a great deal of the time I had to just scrap the old fashioned way with no special benefit for doing so. That's not a way to match Scrapper performance, when they have a higher base damage scale and random critical hits.

 

I get that liking how something plays is not objective, and performance does not imply enjoyment. But the ability to play Stalkers the original way is not much changed. Demoralize still exists, but was reduced in duration - a change that may have happened regardless of the other changes. I am not saying they didn't change. I am saying I don't see how the degree of change is so bad that the old way of playing, if someone prefers it, is somehow ruined.

Lol I like how you drop your Stalker cred but apparently couldn't use it on teams (even if something happened and you get knocked out of hide, you just keep rolling and anticipate your Placate set up). Nothing against you tho. I think a lot of the main criticisms of Stalkers was how it performed in PvP as a hit and run AT which carried over to expectations in PvE despite that not being optimal

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40 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

It's not about not liking the mechanic of combos, it's not liking the forced feel to use them or suffer the consequences.

You aren’t forced to do anything unless peak efficiency is - no if’s, and’s, or but’s - your #1 value. But if you’re complaining about playstyle issues, it would seem playstyle is your #1 value. So which is it? It can’t be both - as that would mean that “My favorite playstyle must always be also the best playstyle” is a reasonable proposition. Which it isn’t.

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5 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Did you not read my post?

 

I did. And I just re-read them, and I don't see any of the things you just mentioned in them making this something that has "consequences". I think the issue is that I don't understand considering using the thing you like better to have the "consequence" of missing out on something newer that is, depending on context, more effective.

 

To me that's like complaining about no longer being one armed, because now you feel bad using your one arm when you have a bionic prosthetic that's stronger. Use the arm you want unless there's a damn good reason to use one over the other, and enjoy the fact that you have two arms.

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4 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Lol I like how you drop your Stalker cred but apparently couldn't use it on teams (even if something happened and you get knocked out of hide, you just keep rolling and anticipate your Placate set up). Nothing against you tho. I think a lot of the main criticisms of Stalkers was how it performed in PvP as a hit and run AT which carried over to expectations in PvE despite that not being optimal

 

a) Never PvP'd here to speak of. I never liked MMO PVP, having been a team FPS player for years. So no, my perception of Stalker performance is not about how they did in PvP.

b) Oh, please. Anticipation on this only went so far. Anticpation didn't stop the Brute from running in on you and pulling AoE splash on you while you AS'd. Any time you lost even one AS in a spawn (even if you got a 2nd through placate) that dropped your performance relative to a Scrapper, which was the point I was making when I talked about teams screwing up AS. Lets remember, this all started before IOs were a thing, and even softcapped defense gets hit, and the more stuff is flying, the more likely that is to happen.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I think a lot of the main criticisms of Stalkers was how it performed in PvP as a hit and run AT which carried over to expectations in PvE despite that not being optimal

Eh, I think it had more to do with how long it took to build attack chains because of how the primaries were set up, combined with having an interruptible attack at level 6 that took an excessive amount of endurance to do scale 1 damage unless you were hidden, and then it would do as much damage as all of your other attacks (usually until level 26) put together, but recharged slowly and Placate recharged even slower. So people learned that "hit, run, and re-hide" was effective early when solo, and many (most?) tried to continue that as much as possible rather than adapting to "hit and scrap" once they could actually have an attack chain.

 

The countdown to rehide was also lowered in one of the earlier buffs for Stalkers, they used to have to wait 10 seconds for hidden status to come back. So combine the players who think that hitting one attack every 8-10 seconds and running away after doing so until hidden status came back was the "unique AT playstyle" with the fact that even if they sat there and scrapped it out that they were still doing less damage than the other melee option(s) because their damage modifier was even lower then, and they had fewer hit points than any other melee AT, and they give up powers in their primary and secondary for their inherent while having worse performance, and you can start to see why the AT might have had a bad reputation from people who cared at all about performance.

 

As for being a hit and run AT in PvP - so is everything with mobility. The difference is that ranged ATs are also capable of attacking while they run.

Edited by siolfir
wow so many missing words
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45 minutes ago, arcane said:

You aren’t forced to do anything unless peak efficiency is - no if’s, and’s, or but’s - your #1 value. But if you’re complaining about playstyle issues, it would seem playstyle is your #1 value. So which is it? It can’t be both - as that would mean that “My favorite playstyle must always be also the best playstyle” is a reasonable proposition. Which it isn’t.

You're reaching.

 

I said "forced feel". Over all, I really don't give a duck primarily because power creep had already gotten it's clutches in the game. Trying to divide posters into binary camps here doesn't change that.

 

44 minutes ago, UberGuy said:

 

I did. And I just re-read them, and I don't see any of the things you just mentioned in them making this something that has "consequences". I think the issue is that I don't understand considering using the thing you like better to have the "consequence" of missing out on something newer that is, depending on context, more effective.

 

To me that's like complaining about no longer being one armed, because now you feel bad using your one arm when you have a bionic prosthetic that's stronger. Use the arm you want unless there's a damn good reason to use one over the other, and enjoy the fact that you have two arms.

You're obviously playing forum debate class then. I have no intention on mincing terms just because you decide to latch onto one single word of a paragraph.

 

At this point you're making the point that I hold my arm behind my back for style (which I do) and that I should be ignorant of what I'm holding myself back from or just don't play.

 

Yes, you're literally complaining that I know what the AT can accomplish and I'm stating it on a forum.

38 minutes ago, UberGuy said:

 

a) Never PvP'd here to speak of. I never liked MMO PVP, having been a team FPS player for years. So no, my perception of Stalker performance is not about how they did in PvP.

b) Oh, please. Anticipation on this only went so far. Anticpation didn't stop the Brute from running in on you and pulling AoE splash on you while you AS'd. Any time you lost even one AS in a spawn (even if you got a 2nd through placate) that dropped your performance relative to a Scrapper, which was the point I was making when I talked about teams screwing up AS. Lets remember, this all started before IOs were a thing, and even softcapped defense gets hit, and the more stuff is flying, the more likely that is to happen.

Ah, do you not see that hypocrisy here?

 

So you missing an AS made you feel like your performance was dropping. Rather than concerning yourself with target prioritization, you feel DPS is most important so that is what the AT should be focused on even at the detriment of the AT's role. 

 

I don't understand why you're coming off as defensive here. No one's taking away your Stalker buffs. This is all just criticisms and you've decided to attack the debater rather than the facts.

12 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Eh, I think it had more to do with how long it took to build attack chains because of how the primaries were set up, combined with having an interruptible attack at level 6 that took an excessive amount of endurance to do scale 1 damage unless you were hidden, and then it would do as much damage as all of your other attacks (usually until level 26) put together, but recharged slowly and Placate recharged even slower.

 

The attack chain thing? Not really. AS replaces an AoE which you likely aren't using in an attack chain primarily. In the early levels, AS is so much better, you really out pace a scrapper with an equivalent attack chain+AoE simply because you can drop an LT or a Boss with BU.

 

The rest of that is mostly growing pains that come with any AT in the early game sans Brute.

 

Hit and run was primarily used as a crutch but it never was more efficient, only safer. Hit and scrap is mostly what is done now with most emphasis taken off the hit part.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

At this point you're making the point that I hold my arm behind my back for style (which I do) and that I should be ignorant of what I'm holding myself back from or just don't play.

 

Huh? I am not sure how I'm conveying that. I mean, I seriously am not sure I understand what you think I'm saying, but it's not that.

 

This conversation started because I understood you to be in disagreement with the changes to the AT. I made a qualified, subjective statement about why I disagreed (strongly) that the changes were bad, backed by some statements I feel are objective about the difference in performance on teams in particular.

 

Everything else is just us debating the facts behind our opinions, and in the case of what you're saying here, me trying to understand what your opinion actually is.

 

28 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Ah, do you not see that hypocrisy here?

 

So you missing an AS made you feel like your performance was dropping. Rather than concerning yourself with target prioritization, you feel DPS is most important so that is what the AT should be focused on even at the detriment of the AT's role. 

 

This literally was in the context of comparison to other ATs, which mattered because other ATs can prioritize damage on targets too. Why are you're assuming I didn't prioritize targets? Of course I did! Why wouldn't I? And why would my prioritizing targets change that the team screwing with AS going off (first or second) mean that this took more effort and luck than if I was just playing a Scrapper instead. The point of a damage AT on a team is to kill things - the how only matters for personal playstyle preference ... and how it interacts with the team. If being blasted by a shotgun blast aimed at a Brute (who repositioned himself after I started my AS) stops or slows down my carefully planned attack, I haven't done my job. If I have to spend my placate+AS on something that failed because something like that, that's potentially a second prioritized target I could not take out.

 

28 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I don't understand why you're coming off as defensive here.

 

Maybe because people responding back to me on this topic keep posting in ways that feel very much like attacking me instead of the facts or their interpretation.

 

Edited by UberGuy
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FWIW, I never played my OG Stalkers as AS-and-run away to rehide. I always played AS then scrap, with Placate+AS on another target as circumstances allowed.

 

I still will position and slow AS on targets if I get the chance, but if the fur starts flying before I get into position, I just scrap instead and look for (slow) AS opportunities on the next spawn. Of course, the folks I team with tend to be the "everyone split up and solo your own thing", so there's that - I can often fight each spawn however I want, because I have it to myself.

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

At this point you're making the point that I hold my arm behind my back for style (which I do) and that I should be ignorant of what I'm holding myself back from or just don't play.

Or maybe he’s just saying don’t complain about the natural consequences of your own conscious decisions? Do you want to play your favorite playstyle, or do you want your second arm? Which is it going to be? We have a saying that goes “trying to have your cake and eat it too”. Own your own choices. It’s really that simple.

 

I have made similar decisions to forego meta powers/slottings/playstyles etc for personal preference. I also don’t complain that the game doesn’t naturally cater to each of those decisions.

Edited by arcane
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6 minutes ago, UberGuy said:

 

Huh? I am not sure how I'm conveying that. I mean, I seriously am not sure I understand what you think I'm saying, but it's not that.

 

This conversation started because I understood you to be in disagreement with the changes to the AT. I made a qualified, subjective statement about why I disagreed (strongly) that the changes were bad, backed by some statements I feel are objective about the difference in performance on teams in particular.

 

Everything else is just us debating the facts behind our opinions, and in the case of what you're saying here, me trying to understand what your opinion actually is.

 

 

You decided to latch onto the term "consequences" in the context of me explaining a complex idea.

 

You also seem to not understand the point I made about the effectiveness of the new style invalidating the old which I know is going to net you less DPS especially if circumstances go against you and you get dropped from hide. Overall, this is more a critique on the "modernization" that sets and ATs receive and how they can be perceived differently by different players. It can seem like a positive to some and a hindrance to others.

 

I've learned that having been the biggest advocate of the Tanker AoE range buffs (I want to take credit for seeding the idea but I'm sure id be proven wrong somewhere) and even suggested my own versions of combo features for Energy Melee and Dark Melee in the past.

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7 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Overall, this is more a critique on the "modernization" that sets and ATs receive and how they can be perceived differently by different players. It can seem like a positive to some and a hindrance to others.

 

OK, with this I finally have (I think) a clear understanding of your point. I don't agree with it, but I at least think I understand where you're coming from.

 

Just personally, I won't be unhappy about having a new option that is better than an old option I liked. Part of that is that I am very performance-minded - for me the thing that is more fun is likely to be the one that performs better, because it performs better. But even if I actually still liked the less performant way more, I just would never be upset by a new, more performant way being added. (If it was a direct replacement and the old, less performant way was gone, I might be salty about that.)

 

But that part directly above is purely my opinion.

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So now that the Stalker tangent has gone completely off the rails, maybe it should be continued in its own thread? I'm guilty of expanding on it, too, but I can see that discussion, whether restricted to Stalkers or expanded on the changes to "modernize" the game, being a lengthy and potentially heated thread in its own right.

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