Scrap/Brute Decision

[Doogleburg]

Long time player "new" to the game. Having played other MMO's I have gotten in to the habbit of worrying about "top dps" 
I still have fun with my builds, but i always feel like im missing out on something better. So i would like the opinions of my fellow heroes. 

The playstyle I am wanting to get out of this is Good AOE with Good enough STD to solo larger threats. This is where the Scrapper/Brute comes in to play. I know that Brutes have more survivability in general by being able to get hit harder. But, i suppose a great defense is a great offense. They cant hit you if they're dead right? So that's where my DPS debacle is coming in to play. Now I dont wanna be that guy to walk in to the store and say " I want the best item for the lowest price " because that doesn't exist. So I am just looking for a built that has great DPS and is great fun in general because it performs well. Yes, i know the argument that "Any class is good" in the game, but I also know statistically there are some that can out perform others. So i guess I would just like to know your favorite builds so maybe i can convince my self to stick with a toon for more than two days. Any and all responses welcome, no judgement here. Thank you! 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Doogleburg

[Apparition]

Welcome to Paragon City and the Rogue Isles!

 

Scrappers will do more DPS than Brutes, especially with the Scrapper AT origin enhancement sets.  That's just fact.  So if DPS is all you care about, go Scrapper.  However, as you alluded, DPS isn't the end all be all.  Brutes have two advantages over Scrapper.  Better survivability as you stated, and more importantly, better aggro management.  Only a couple of Scrapper secondaries offers good aggro management: Bio Armor, Invulnerability, and Shield Defense.  For all other secondaries, if you want to keep mobs on you and prevent them from running away, I'd go with Brute.  You will do almost as much damage as a Scrapper, and not have to worry about mobs running away nearly as much.  Also, the resistance based secondaries (Dark Armor, Fiery Aura, Electric Armor, and Radiation Armor), are better on Brutes due to the AT's higher resistance cap of 90% verus Scrapper's 75%.

 

Primaries, Titan Weapons and Claws are pretty much tops for AoE and do decent single target damage.  War Mace is a great all around contender for both single target and AoE.  Energy Melee is probably now the single target damage king, and has okie AoE damage.

 

Secondaries, Radiation Armor, Bio Armor, Invulnerability, Energy Aura, and Shield Defense are generally considered the top five melee armor sets in the game.  All are quite good, in their own ways.

 

You really can't go wrong mixing and matching any of the power sets I mentioned above on either AT.

[Doogleburg]

2 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Welcome to Paragon City and the Rogue Isles!

 

Scrappers will do more DPS than Brutes, especially with the Scrapper AT origin enhancement sets.  That's just fact.  So if DPS is all you care about, go Scrapper.  However, as you alluded, DPS isn't the end all be all.  Brutes have two advantages over Scrapper.  Better survivability as you stated, and more importantly, better aggro management.  Only a couple of Scrapper secondaries offers good aggro management: Bio Armor, Invulnerability, and Shield Defense.  For all other secondaries, if you want to keep mobs on you and prevent them from running away, I'd go with Brute.  You will do almost as much damage as a Scrapper, and not have to worry about mobs running away nearly as much.  Also, the resistance based secondaries (Dark Armor, Fiery Aura, Electric Armor, and Radiation Armor), are better on Brutes due to the AT's higher resistance cap of 90% verus Scrapper's 75%.

 

Primaries, Titan Weapons and Claws are pretty much tops for AoE and do decent single target damage.  War Mace is a great all around contender for both single target and AoE.  Energy Melee is probably now the single target damage king, and has okie AoE damage.

 

Secondaries, Radiation Armor, Bio Armor, Invulnerability, Energy Aura, and Shield Defense are generally considered the top five melee armor sets in the game.  All are quite good, in their own ways.

 

You really can't go wrong mixing and matching any of the power sets I mentioned above on either AT.

This was a perfect suggestion. I am working a Titan/Bio right now and so far its been pretty neat. The idea of momentum is interesting but easy to get use to. I was also thinking of doing a Thor'esk build with Mace so that's good to know it does well. This has helped my dilemma greatly and i appreciate your thorough response. 

[Apparition]

7 minutes ago, Doogleburg said:

This was a perfect suggestion. I am working a Titan/Bio right now and so far its been pretty neat. The idea of momentum is interesting but easy to get use to. I was also thinking of doing a Thor'esk build with Mace so that's good to know it does well. This has helped my dilemma greatly and i appreciate your thorough response. 

 

Titan Weapons/Bio Armor is a great combination and popular for a reason.  Enjoy!

[JayboH]

One thing to note, even though the above is true, you only need so much survivability, and after that it's all about damage... and if you can survive most, kill speed actually can raise your survivability even more.

 

Aggro management is a great way to determine which you want to go for.  Scrappers have to run around constantly chasing fleeing targets, which can kill dps. 

 

Oh, and of course scrappers still don't have access to all the melee sets yet.

[Omega Force]

I think Willpower also has a taunt component for scrappers.

[Apparition]

On 5/10/2021 at 6:20 AM, Omega Force said:

I think Willpower also has a taunt component for scrappers.

 

It does, but like Energy Aura and some others, it's really weak compared to Invulnerability, Shield Defense, and Bio Armor, and especially weak compared to their Brute counterparts.

[Oysterhead]

That's interesting, I hadn't realized how much a variation in how the taunt auras worked existed. All of them have a Mag 3 taunt, but they last drastically different amounts of time. A list, mostly for my own benefit:

Bio: Evolving Armor: 13.6s 
Dark: No Taunt Aura
Electric: No Taunt Aura
Energy: Entropic Aura: 2.3s
Fire: No Taunt Aura

Ice: No Taunt Aura

Invulnerability: Invincibility: 17s

Ninjitsu: No Taunt Aura

Radiation: Beta Decay: 13.6s

Regeneration: No Taunt Aura

Shield: Against All Odds: 17s

Super Reflexes: No Taunt Aura

Willpower: Rise to the Challenge: 1.25s

 

Invulnerability and Shield have the best by a lot. Even if you are moving around, things you touched with the aura will funnel towards you for a while. Rad and Bio pretty close to those, with Energy Aura and Willpower functioning essentially only as long as you are standing next to something. Move, or something gets knocked back and it'll forget about you.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Oysterhead

[Apparition]

Yep.  That's why, personally, I would play everything except for Bio, Invulnerability, and Shield on a Brute instead.

[oldskool]

On 5/9/2021 at 11:54 PM, Doogleburg said:

Long time player "new" to the game. Having played other MMO's I have gotten in to the habbit of worrying about "top dps" 
I still have fun with my builds, but i always feel like im missing out on something better. So i would like the opinions of my fellow heroes. 

The playstyle I am wanting to get out of this is Good AOE with Good enough STD to solo larger threats. This is where the Scrapper/Brute comes in to play. I know that Brutes have more survivability in general by being able to get hit harder. But, i suppose a great defense is a great offense. They cant hit you if they're dead right? So that's where my DPS debacle is coming in to play. Now I dont wanna be that guy to walk in to the store and say " I want the best item for the lowest price " because that doesn't exist. So I am just looking for a built that has great DPS and is great fun in general because it performs well. Yes, i know the argument that "Any class is good" in the game, but I also know statistically there are some that can out perform others. So i guess I would just like to know your favorite builds so maybe i can convince my self to stick with a toon for more than two days. Any and all responses welcome, no judgement here. Thank you! 

 

Something to think about, not that any of the other advice is bad, but there are degrees to which ATs compare with each other.  Individual power sets, build preferences, and the like can really, really blur lines.  The entire "out performs others" is so freaking nebulous here that you can get many different answers.  Each one of them being correct on their own merits.  You didn't even get responses yet about the Controller builds can out perform your idea, and they exist.

That said, Titan Weapons is a strong performing primary on any of the melee ATs that can access it.  Scrappers can certainly have the highest potential with it, but this isn't to say Brutes using it hit like wet noodles (they really don't, by a long shot).  Hell, Tankers can also perform surprisingly well.  You didn't mention Stalkers, but those too can do considerable damage.  They are single target specialists but some combinations can do decently well in AoE too.  

TL;DR: This is something that can be overthought considerably.  While you recognize people say "any class is good", I'm just here to say... we mean it.

Edited May 12, 2021 by oldskool

[Doogleburg]

1 hour ago, oldskool said:

You didn't even get responses yet about the Controller builds can out perform your idea, and they exist.

 

You have peaked my interest on the troller idea. What build would you suggest? I toyed around with a plant/poison yesterday and it did pretty well. 

[oldskool]

40 minutes ago, Doogleburg said:

You have peaked my interest on the troller idea. What build would you suggest? I toyed around with a plant/poison yesterday and it did pretty well. 

 

Plant/Poison is a good combo.  Almost anything paired with Storm Summoning can be nuts.  Dark Miasma, Radiation Emission, and Cold are also really powerful as they debuff the crap out of enemies.  

Illusion is a very single target oriented set but pushing high recharge can allow for permanent Phantom Army.  That essentially means your indestructible goon squad gets to beat on some highly debuffed enemy.  Illusion/Radiation is a classic combo that can take down almost anything.  You can run any of the powerful secondaries with that and still come out really well.  Illusion/Storm is chaos in a character and it can be glorious.  People may hate you for that, but it is there.  

You still can't go wrong with any of the melee ATs.  They are fantastic at surviving and are fairly easy to build.  The squishy ATs can take a lot more work and time to really make them ridiculous.  

So there are two kinds of powerful performs.  You have your direct damage unga bunga types like Scrappers, Blasters, etc.  Then you have your weaken the enemy until they are cuddle kittens types like Controllers, Defenders, Corrupters, and Masterminds.  Either path can get you to Godhood. 🙂 

[Lazarillo]

On 5/11/2021 at 1:06 PM, Apparition said:

It does, but like Energy Aura and some others, it's really weak compared to Invulnerability, Shield Defense, and Bio Armor, and especially weak compared to their Brute counterparts.

In my experience, it's generally more than sufficient.  I main a Claws/WP, and stuff still doesn't run from him.

[Omega Force]

I thought I read it had recently been normalized, but that might have been just for tankers.

[Oysterhead]

2 hours ago, Omega Force said:

I thought I read it had recently been normalized, but that might have been just for tankers.

The tanker sets across the board, at least as of i27 page 1 that is in Mids, have a Mag 4, 13.6 second taunt in all auras. So some sets get multiple (Ice has 2 for example), but Invuln and Shield kept their 17 second in mids. In game though, they all look to scale from 0.8s at level 1 to 14.96s at level 50 (checked shield, fire, WP and Rad tanks to confirm)

Edit to add: Looking at the way the taunt auras for tankers are now, I think WP actually has the strongest single one. WP was coded as a flat mag 3 taunt, no duration, which I think means when the aura is no longer on something the taunt is gone. But when it got normalized, a mag 4 duration taunt was added on top, so things in range would have mag 7 taunt on them? If above mag 4 even matters. Not as good as Ice's 2 mag 4s, or Rad/Bio pumping out additional taunts built into all their area PBAOEs.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Oysterhead

[Doogleburg]

3 hours ago, oldskool said:

You have your direct damage unga bunga types like Scrappers, Blasters, etc.  

 

This absolutely describes me. But Im trying to set down my Neanderthal gene and start using my big brain. So Ill/Rad seems like a good build to get a taste of controllers.

[oldskool]

1 hour ago, Doogleburg said:

 

This absolutely describes me. But Im trying to set down my Neanderthal gene and start using my big brain. So Ill/Rad seems like a good build to get a taste of controllers.

 

So back in 2004 or so, I think I started with a Blaster (because everyone did, seriously) and a Tanker.  Holy crap... yuk on both.  I swapped to Scrapper and tried a number of pairings. This is game launch so there wasn't the berth of ATs there are now.  I'm also a glutton for punishment so I went with Dark Melee, before people realized how Soul Drain worked, and Dark Armor (when you could only run 1 resistance toggle at a time + Tough).  Still, the Scrapper was the best experience I had had for years.  I loved it.  

Then later down the road I started to grow as a person and try other ATs.  Of course, I need to express that Controllers and Defenders had buffs by then so they didn't royally suck to play.  That is when I discovered just how much I loved playing Dominators and Controllers before the game shut down.  Illusion/Rad was one of my very last characters I made before the snap, and one of the very first characters I re-made when the game came back.  Well, that and a Super Strength/Willpower Brute because that combo is amazing.  

Anyway, welcome to CoX, and enjoy your stay.  There is a WIDE range of builds and AT combos to explore.  Some are vastly better than others but the sheer scope of the game is what makes it so damn fun to me.  

[JayboH]

On 5/12/2021 at 3:01 PM, oldskool said:

 

Plant/Poison is a good combo.  Almost anything paired with Storm Summoning can be nuts.  Dark Miasma, Radiation Emission, and Cold are also really powerful as they debuff the crap out of enemies.  

Illusion is a very single target oriented set but pushing high recharge can allow for permanent Phantom Army.  That essentially means your indestructible goon squad gets to beat on some highly debuffed enemy.  Illusion/Radiation is a classic combo that can take down almost anything.  You can run any of the powerful secondaries with that and still come out really well.  Illusion/Storm is chaos in a character and it can be glorious.  People may hate you for that, but it is there.  

You still can't go wrong with any of the melee ATs.  They are fantastic at surviving and are fairly easy to build.  The squishy ATs can take a lot more work and time to really make them ridiculous.  

So there are two kinds of powerful performs.  You have your direct damage unga bunga types like Scrappers, Blasters, etc.  Then you have your weaken the enemy until they are cuddle kittens types like Controllers, Defenders, Corrupters, and Masterminds.  Either path can get you to Godhood. 🙂 

Hmm...  could dominators compete against perma phantom army hitting debuffed goons?

[Heraclea]

My basic rule of thumb is that it depends on what armor set you're planning on building. 

 

If mostly resistance based, go Brute.

If mostly defense based, go Scrapper.

[oldskool]

14 hours ago, JayboH said:

Hmm...  could dominators compete against perma phantom army hitting debuffed goons?

 

Depends on what is meant by compete.  Illusion control isn't the greatest set at actually controlling enemies.  So almost any Dominator can be made to offer very competitive crowd control.  Dominators also have far more control over their personal damage and aren't as reliant on some AI controlled minion.  Both Illusion Controllers and Dominators love a lot of recharge, but the perma Phantom army doesn't work without extreme amounts of it.  Dominators can function just fine right out the box.  

[JayboH]

3 hours ago, oldskool said:

 

Depends on what is meant by compete.  Illusion control isn't the greatest set at actually controlling enemies.  So almost any Dominator can be made to offer very competitive crowd control.  Dominators also have far more control over their personal damage and aren't as reliant on some AI controlled minion.  Both Illusion Controllers and Dominators love a lot of recharge, but the perma Phantom army doesn't work without extreme amounts of it.  Dominators can function just fine right out the box.  

So they are likely automatically superior it sounds like

[oldskool]

1 hour ago, JayboH said:

So they are likely automatically superior it sounds like

 

That's pretty subjective, and not something I would agree to state as a global truth.  That said, there are certain ATs and power combos that I would describe as superior for my playstyle.  That isn't to say such combinations are superior in all aspects of play or even universally applicable to everyone.

[Thrax]

I would say brute if you're wanting to tank, but not a lot of brutes take taunt anymore anyway.  Hell some tanks don't.  

[ninja surprise]

On 5/9/2021 at 10:54 PM, Apparition said:

Also, the resistance based secondaries (Dark Armor, Fiery Aura, Electric Armor, and Radiation Armor), are better on Brutes due to the AT's higher resistance cap of 90% verus Scrapper's 75%.

 

The irony being, a lot of the builds I see don't get the Brute to 90% resistance vs most damage types. Farmers cap fire resist, some other builds cap S/L. But most barely get to 75%.

So I'd tweak the generalization to say resistance armors are better on Brutes because they have more HP. They take longer to whittle down, and get more from the armor's heal.

Scrappers, with Defense armors, don't care about lower HP pools when they aren't getting hit.

 

 

On 5/12/2021 at 11:20 AM, Oysterhead said:

Dark: No Taunt Aura
Electric: No Taunt Aura
Fire: No Taunt Aura

Ice: No Taunt Aura

 

 

That's just weird, but I hadn't thought about the difference between a taunt aura and a damage aura. Ice has Icicles and Chilling Embrace, and Chilling seems to aggro lots of foes.  I'll run through a room, touching them all with the Embrace, quickly exceeding the aggro cap. After I've defeated some, others will come running over if Chilling Embrace touched them.

[BrandX]

5 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

 

The irony being, a lot of the builds I see don't get the Brute to 90% resistance vs most damage types. Farmers cap fire resist, some other builds cap S/L. But most barely get to 75%.

So I'd tweak the generalization to say resistance armors are better on Brutes because they have more HP. They take longer to whittle down, and get more from the armor's heal.

Scrappers, with Defense armors, don't care about lower HP pools when they aren't getting hit.

 

 

I was thinking on that!  All the talk of Brutes and the resist caps, and outside of teams with buffs, how often do they hit those caps?  😛

 

I pretty much hit the caps on my Elec/Elec Brute, but I never felt Energize every 39 seconds was fast enough. 😛