Make Bitter Freeze Ray a Snipe

[Mr Pierce]

As the title suggests, I was wondering what people might think of having this ability become a snipe attack. In it's current form, the animation feels like it is much too long to be incorporated into an attack chain, and thus is a skippable power. If it were converted into a snipe where you still had the same power up animation, but could quick cast it in combat, it would become a much better power. More importantly, with the mag 3 hold it would set it apart from other snipes in the game and give Ice Blast something really special.

 

I'm not sure if there was a reason given to not have snipe in Ice Blast from the get-go, but this feels like an easy change that could really improve the weakest power (in my opinion) in the set. If the mag 3 is too strong, then perhaps lower it to mag 2, so that when the player is tossing out regular Freeze Ray, they would have a total mag hold of 5 that they could essentially spam.

 

What do you guys think? Is this too strong? Not needed?

[Outrider_01]

Because not all power sets need to be the same ?  Guess Ice needs a PBAoE/Cone on top of it, call it Avalanche and animated like FA.

 

Better option is add the snipe cast time reduced in combat, with a lesser mag hold.  Long animation, higher mag. Makes it different but still the samr.

[TheZag]

I have chance for +2 mag hold in it as well as in freeze ray.  I open with the longer cast bitter freeze ray and follow up with freeze ray.  BFR also hits hard so something would have to give to become a snipe and that would be less damage or less hold and i like having both.

[Mr Pierce]

15 minutes ago, TheZag said:

I have chance for +2 mag hold in it as well as in freeze ray.  I open with the longer cast bitter freeze ray and follow up with freeze ray.  BFR also hits hard so something would have to give to become a snipe and that would be less damage or less hold and i like having both.

 

I covered this in my suggestion. Lower the Mag to 2 on the snipe. With Freeze Ray at mag 3, you have a total of mag 5 and can slot +2 mag IOs for all of the hold goodness.

 

33 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

Because not all power sets need to be the same ?  Guess Ice needs a PBAoE/Cone on top of it, call it Avalanche and animated like FA.

 

Better option is add the snipe cast time reduced in combat, with a lesser mag hold.  Long animation, higher mag. Makes it different but still the samr.

 

I am not saying that it has to be the same and that all blaster sets need a snipe. It could be argued that snipe is in fact the Assassin Strike for Blasters, but that's a different conversation. All I'm suggesting is a change to the cast time, and a way to balance that was to make it a snipe. I do like your idea of making it a low mag, quick cast during combat. So you could still lead with it as a slow cast, mag 3 hold. Options are awesome. Ice Blast is already very original with it's location AOEs and holds. I don't want to take it's originality away. Just want this one power to feel better.

[arcane]

Hard no. Ice is already top tier s/t damage without a snipe, so this would be overpowered. Would be down to consider adding a snipe to Sonic though.

[dangeraaron10]

Hard yes.  If only to have another set give Fire Blast a run for its money.

[TheZag]

Make frost breath into the snipe,  only reason i still have frost breath is because i dont want to reorganize my trays after a respec.

[dangeraaron10]

31 minutes ago, TheZag said:

Make frost breath into the snipe,  only reason i still have frost breath is because i dont want to reorganize my trays after a respec.

 

Only if you still breath it out.  Snipe Breath.

[MTeague]

I like that some sets just don't have snipes at all. Period. 

There should be some variance in toolkits.

[Solarverse]

Yeah, I made a pretty damn good case for this very suggestion and even though I feel like the case I made was much better than the cases against it, the people against the idea far outweighed the amount of people who were for it. I support the idea, but you won't get enough people in these forums to agree with you. I think when you ask around in game, the majority of people that I have spoken to about it were all about it, however, those people don't post the forums, so then there is that.

To me, it's already a snipe, except that it is a garbage snipe that I personally don't take. If it were actually a snipe I would take it in to my build...but that's just me. unfortunately I don't think you will find many here who will agree with us.

[Glacier Peak]

It's got the end cost of a snipe, the damage, and almost the range when enhanced. I mean the set isn't built around having a snipe. It would seem out of place in practice. 

[TheZag]

The resistance towards making it into a snipe, for me at least, is to prevent another set from falling into sameness.  2 single target attacks, a cone, aim, targeted AoE, snipe, nuke.  It leaves very little room to make a powerset feel different.

 

When the suggestion is to make something different into something the same,  i wont be for it most of the time. 

[arcane]

My resistance to it is strictly that, IMO, the thought that Ice Blast of all sets should get more single target DPA is completely ridiculous.

[Solarverse]

@TheZag @Glacier Peak @arcane

For me personally (I don't speak for anyone but myself) as it is now, I just can't justify it. The animation is far too slow and it doesn't fit in well with the rotation of the other abilities that have instant cast and are all recharged by the time you finish your rotation. The only way it would be useful is if A: It was converted to a true snipe that can be instant cast upon the required circumstances, or B: Was changed completely to act as a cone immobilize much like Tenebrous Tentacles from Dark Blast, and cast much like Steam Spray from Water Blast, but have the visual effects of perhaps Ice Shards instead of water spraying.

I understand that anyone who takes the ability now might not like that idea because perhaps they use it more for the hold than they do the damage, but like I said, I was saying for me personally, that is the two ways I would consider changing it if I had the choice to do so. I mean, Ice Blasters in comics always had an Ice Shards power anyway, so even thematically that would make sense, however, as of right now, the way it currently exists, I just can't mess with it.

[Tahliah]

I don't think ice blast needs a snipe at all because 1.)) our range is already pretty good, and we're likely to pick up "incidental" (i.e. not planned) range bonuses from set choices, and 2.) in addition to range, our attacks are pretty darned deadly.  As a largely single-target blaster, ice blasts/bolts/freeze ray are already pretty darned good (balanced against other blaster AT's AOEs, etc.).  Slot up for damage (acc and recharge), and you're a DPS rockstar.

 

That said, I do get that bitter freeze ray is a super slow power to execute and agree that it does not "fit" into a 'go-to' attack chain, though as @TheZagnoted, if you use it first, it's a much better fit for an attack chain (that then, after the first cast, is skipped).  However, turning it into a snipe or some sort of icy blades thingy doesn't appeal to me.  It's too samey same, cookie cutter (ice/fire/elec/blah blah blah all function exactly the same way with only the element changed? Meh.).

 

My main, an ice/ice/ice blaster, is also my badger, so I do a LOT of soloing on her in my never-ending quest for my next shiny.  When you solo an ice/ice blaster, the crowd control features of the primary and secondary are vital, so bitter freeze ray becomes a crucial part of game play.  Out for your Fake Nem or PP badge?  Well, you need to stop them from sup'ing up, and bitter freeze ray is perfect for that.  Lead in with your bitter freeze ray to control a Paragon Protector/FN, and kill it dead, along with the rest of the mob with your Blizzard, mop up with your bitter ice blast (and freeze ray, ice blast/bolt, whatever, if needed). 

 

Bitter freeze ray has great range right out of the box, and it also tends to be accurate (given the time it takes to execute, it better be, right?), so it's a great way to freeze not just Fake Nems and PPs but the blaster-dreaded sappers.  Bitter freeze ray also seems to attract little to no aggro, so it's very useful in caging sappers and other undesirables (like Freak stunners or CoT mages) both from a bit of a distance and without drawing attention to yourself before you can drop your full icy fury on the mob.

 

I love this power more just thinking and writing about how I use it.  I do admit that I don't drop it constantly, but it has its uses and comes in very handy when there are particularly unsavory baddies who need to be shut down before they can do their worst. 

[Naraka]

Unless we're also talking about reducing snipes so they aren't just insta-cast tier 3 blasts but actually something special, I don't see the need to keep pushing for homogenization.  I bet no one would be asking for more snipes if they were the live-version, which tells the whole story of what they actually want and eventually, we'll be pushing to cut down on all the cast times to make the game "more responsive" or some other excuse.  

 

And what I mean by "something special", the snipes were built to have a unique functionality that had it's pros and cons.  But when you removed all the cons, now that just makes any set without a snipe lesser in comparison.  So Congratulations, you played yourself.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Naraka

[aethereal]

13 hours ago, Tahliah said:

Bitter freeze ray has great range right out of the box, and it also tends to be accurate (given the time it takes to execute, it better be, right?), so it's a great way to freeze not just Fake Nems and PPs but the blaster-dreaded sappers.  Bitter freeze ray also seems to attract little to no aggro, so it's very useful in caging sappers and other undesirables (like Freak stunners or CoT mages) both from a bit of a distance and without drawing attention to yourself before you can drop your full icy fury on the mob. 

 

As a point of order, BFR has standard accuracy and range.  It certainly attracts aggro and had notify mobs set to true.  I don't understand aggro calculations in any detail, but I'd be surprised if it attracts "little" aggro compared to any other ST hold/blast.

[America's Angel]

Giving Ice a 1.33s fast snipe that can slot 5 damage procs, on top of Ice having access to Ice Bolt/Ice Blast/Bitter Ice Blast/Freeze Ray (plus Char in the epics) would be bad for game balance.

[aethereal]

14 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Giving Ice a 1.33s fast snipe that can slot 5 damage procs, on top of Ice having access to Ice Bolt/Ice Blast/Bitter Ice Blast/Freeze Ray (plus Char in the epics) would be bad for game balance.

And in fact BFR has better DPA than Ice Bolt and Ice Blast already (albeit way worse than FR/BIB).  People are welcome to not like the fact that it has a long animation time, and it suffers badly in comparison to FR/BIB, but it's not like it's bad DPA (and of course it can be heavily procced today).

 

I think it's worthwhile considering changes to BFR, but those changes shouldn't be "Ice gets yet another absurdly high DPA ST attack with a hold baked in."

 

Making it a "snipe" that does high damage/hold on the slow version but very low damage/hold on the fast version might be interesting.  So people who use it as an opener now could still do that, and people who want to use it to stack holds on a boss or something in combat can use it, but it's not part of an optimal DPS chain.

[Naraka]

9 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Making it a "snipe" that does high damage/hold on the slow version but very low damage/hold on the fast version might be interesting.  So people who use it as an opener now could still do that, and people who want to use it to stack holds on a boss or something in combat can use it, but it's not part of an optimal DPS chain.

Honestly, that's probably what they should have done with all the snipes with maybe a few exceptions (AR being one): had it so the slow version did high damage with a strong debuff/control for its opener and then the fast version being a moderate-to-low (depending on the set) damage but with some kind of unique effect like a boost to another attack, a decent control for it's fast activation to stack with other mez in your set, etc...but then it'd require going into each set and reworking them which is outside the purview of any future changes so whatev.  

 

It just gets annoying seeing more power stacked ontop of power and more suggestions continuing that trend.  No one ever wants to suggest "shifting" power from one thing to another or take away some power to gain something else...unless it's something like immobilize or some other debuff, people will suggest removing that for more power lol

[aethereal]

5 minutes ago, Naraka said:

It just gets annoying seeing more power stacked ontop of power and more suggestions continuing that trend.  No one ever wants to suggest "shifting" power from one thing to another or take away some power to gain something else...unless it's something like immobilize or some other debuff, people will suggest removing that for more power lol

 

I don't mind pure buff suggestions in a lot of things, but we shouldn't be buffing top-performing sets in their area of top performance.  If someone wants to give Sonic or Electric Blast a better DPA ST attack, that's not crazy.  If someone looks at Ice Blast and says, "What this set needs is a buff to its ST damage performance," I mean, come on dude.

 

We should not:

 

a.  Make it easier for people to build defense.

b.  Make it easier for people to build global recharge.

c.  Buff Fire Blast or War Mace at all.

d.  Buff ST performance on Ice Blast or Energy Melee (or honestly significantly buff them at all).
e.  Improve Claws' Spin.

d.  etc. (this is a very non-exhaustive list)

 

We should strongly consider:

 

a.  Major buffs to Electric Blast and, at least on Blasters, Sonic Blast, and quite possibly AR (I don't know much about it)

b.  Improving Sentinels overall, and maybe Controllers too.

c.  Making psi damage less feast-or-famine

d.  etc. (this is a very non-exhaustive list)

 

Basically work against the meta.  Bring low-performing sets up to par, not just boost top-end power.

[Ston]

Hard pass. I made a post earlier about how most blast sets could use some adjusting to be on par with fire and ice. Adding a buff like this to ice would just be way over the top.

 

I always considered BIB to be the snipe replacement, Freeze Ray as the classic t3 ST attack, and BFR as mitigation. 

 

Freeze Ray > BIB > Instant Snipe would outclass any ST attack chain. Not to mention ice gets the highest access to procs.

[Tahliah]

On 6/6/2021 at 8:59 AM, aethereal said:

 

As a point of order, BFR has standard accuracy and range.  It certainly attracts aggro and had notify mobs set to true.  I don't understand aggro calculations in any detail, but I'd be surprised if it attracts "little" aggro compared to any other ST hold/blast.

BFR has a longer range than FR in my experience, and honestly, I drop BFR on the PB or Fake Nem, and I don't get the agrro I would if I launched bitter ice blast, ice blast, or ice bolt (obviously frost breath is an aggro magnet).  YMMV, but I'm just stating what I experience in game.  (Not a  numbers cruncher, so I'll concede that my sense of the power's range and lack of aggro pulling may be off, but I'll continue to lead with my BFR on any baddie who can, by whatever means, become untouchable.  Once they are held with BFR, I just finish them off with bitter ice blast.  Easy peasy.)

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Tahliah said:

BFR has a longer range than FR in my experience

 

Freeze Ray has a 60' range, shorter than most blaster blasts, so you are correct, BFR has longer range -- but not longer than is typical for most single-target Blaster powers.  It's not that BFR is long-range, it's that FR is short range (the only short-ranged single-target power in Ice Blast).

 

Ice Blast has these ranges:

 

80 feet:  Ice Bolt, Ice Blast, Bitter Ice Blast, Bitter Freeze Ray

60 feet:  Freeze Ray, Ice Storm, Blizzard

40 feet:  Frost Breath

0 feet:  Aim

 

EDIT:  That said, it might be reasonable to say, as Tahliah did originally, that BFR has "great" range -- for a blaster hold.  There aren't a lot of holds in Blaster primaries -- just FR, BFR, Electric Blast's Tesla Cage (60' range) and Dark Blast's Abyssal gaze (which has a 70' range).  But there are several disorients in blaster primaries, Stunning Shot in Archery, Suppressive Fire in Dual Pistols, Beanbag Round in Assault Rifle, Lancer Shot in Beam Rifle, and Screech in Sonic Blast.  Of those, Lancer Shot has an 80' range and the rest have 60' ranges.  Psi Blast has a ranged sleep, which is 100' range (but Psi generally has long range).  So it looks to me like there's a weak norm of 60' range in blaster primary ST mezzes, with FR conforming and BFR having a longer range.  I was unaware of this before now, and apologize if I confused people who understood that norm and understood Tahliah to be saying that BFR had an above-60' range.

 

EDIT2:  Rad Blast also has Cosmic Burst, an 80' range attack with a 100% chance of ST stun.  Still, the majority of ST ranged mezzes in blaster primaries are 60' range, though there are quite a few exceptions.

Edited June 8, 2021 by aethereal

[Dahkness]

You got my vote! Would love to have a ice snipe.