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2 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Great points. PermaDom would be required.

 

On the Controller side secondaries like /Poison, /Time, and /TA have ST Holds available to them. These same combos offer some type of AoE Hold too.

 

 

When I've looked at build guides and Controller forums both on live, here and elsewhere, there's an anecdotal consensus that the holds in the Secondary powers are very skippable.

 

Of course, that's largely because most are looking at optimizing Min/Max builds, rather than what I'm doing here so the question is "how good are they?"

 

I've had a love/hate affair with Poison since live but my Dark/Poison troller (which had the hold) was brutal, and it's (her) PVE build wrecked a few "Pro" PVPers in RV on live without being built for PVP, because of lack of resists and I guess at that time a lack of build knowledge to counter her. Sadly that didn't mean I could kill the turrets easily but I digress...

 

At that time, Thugs/Poison was also known as "THE AV Killer" on live but I personally found it underwhelming*

 

This is a long post to say I'd considered the efficacy of 2nd holds - there are no temp holds of value (as Huntsman Strauss found to his cost soloing LGTF) but I have yet to see the value.

 

As to Doms, I was rather looking at Earth/Rad on Mids/Pine but... on paper (incomplete as it may be) it doesn't look good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

*We can be underwhemled, we can be overwhelmed, but at what point are we simply "whelmed"?

You have to cross the line to know where it is!

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The holds in the Controller secondary sets used to be skippable, but the math involved in proc bombs makes them more desirable. Especially Trick Arrow's Ice Arrow, which animates faster than some actual Controller holds and comes with a boat load of debuff. 

 

I forget all the specific ways Mids miscalculates proc damage, but if these numbers are even close to accurate Ice Arrow hits far harder than most actual Controller attacks. You'd have to worry about Accuracy, but you can build for that.

 

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26 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

As to Doms, I was rather looking at Earth/Rad on Mids/Pine but... on paper (incomplete as it may be) it doesn't look good.

 

 

Rad is not an Assault set I've ever been able to get into. If concept is part of the issue and you can justify I'd roll it as Earth/Energy. With Energy you can hit Power Up to double the -ToHit in Earthquake and extend the duration of Controls. Energy also has an attack that conditionally saps Hold Resistance from the target.

 

Of course Earth/Earth is also an option, since it also has Power Up, and has Seismic Smash.

Edited by oedipus_tex
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35 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

When I've looked at build guides and Controller forums both on live, here and elsewhere, there's an anecdotal consensus that the holds in the Secondary powers are very skippable.

The older the guide the more likely it contains outdated information


It depends on your overall goals. These present a second MAG 3 Hold, good IO set opportunities. and good PROC opportunities. At least the first case matters if your goal is to stack as much Hold MAG as possible to overcome AV hold resistance. There are only so many ways a Controller can do it and some paths are more efficient than others.

 

Edited by 5099y_74c05

 


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10 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Well I suggested Earth because I've good experience of it, but this thread is interesting me in Doms, an AT I've never really played before.

I like Earth.  My Earth/Radiation controller has 4 holds and perma-Hasten.

I used to hail from Infinity.  Mainly on Everlasting, now.

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16 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

Dominators are good but not necessarily the best in show in terms of mezz stacking. It's true they get extra Magnitude from most controls in Domination mode, but the archetype is limited on the number of mezzing powers they get access to. This might seem counterintuitive, but it stems from the Assault and APPs being very light on mezz. 

 

For example, you can build an Ice Blast Defender or Corruptor who holds a boss without spending anything on IOs. Freeze Ray -> any hold from the secondary or APP will do it. In comparison, in all of their secondary and APP choices Dominators have a grand total of one Hold power, Seismic Smash. Seismic Smash is even a lower Magnitude on Dominators than it is on Controllers (its Mag 3 for Doms outside Domination, Mag 4 in, but always Mag 4 for Controllers) so the only thing Domination does is catch you up to other archetypes, not pull ahead.

 

That said, Dominators can still be quite good at mezzing. Several of them get Power Boost style powers that can help a lot with durations.

 

But all of the above is why people say Domination is so important. Most Dominators are actually pretty bad at control when they are outside Domination mode, and given they have little in the way of healing, defense, or debuff, you can see why people go all-in on permadom.

 

The single-target hold in control sets is tuned to be stackable out of the box and can triple-stack with a single Hold and Recharge SO. It might take a few seconds longer to get there, but it also only takes a single power pick. With a full build (SO) build for each, if I needed someone to lock down a single target (e.g., for a LGTF), I would take a dominator (or controller) over that defender/corruptor. (And I say this as someone whose main is a blaster with three holds.) With a permadom build, the dominator's going to leave everyone else in the dust except maybe, maybe a controller with a second hold. (Just tested: My mind/psi can hold an AV through purple triangles.)

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Playing on Excelsior. Champion forever.

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5 hours ago, Placta said:

maybe a controller with a second hold.

Yes. Even with the second hold it will be teetering on the line of held/not held, with the deciding factor coming down to the build. Powerboost will certainly close the gap as will Nerve or Intuition Alpha Incarnates.

 

All things being equal, Earth/ and Gravity/ have a slight advantage over other primaries. They both have access to a pseudopet/pet capable of stacking two holds for their duration. VG can be made permanent or slightly overlap on higher end builds.

Edited by 5099y_74c05

 


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9 hours ago, Placta said:

 

The single-target hold in control sets is tuned to be stackable out of the box and can triple-stack with a single Hold and Recharge SO. It might take a few seconds longer to get there, but it also only takes a single power pick. With a full build (SO) build for each, if I needed someone to lock down a single target (e.g., for a LGTF), I would take a dominator (or controller) over that defender/corruptor. (And I say this as someone whose main is a blaster with three holds.) With a permadom build, the dominator's going to leave everyone else in the dust except maybe, maybe a controller with a second hold. (Just tested: My mind/psi can hold an AV through purple triangles.)

 

 

In permadom, sure.

 

My point is that a Dominator sans IOs has lower mezz duration than a Controller and actually usually has worse ability to handle a boss level enemy than a Blaster Controller Defender or Corruptor picked for that purpose. Dominators do not have the option to stack Freeze Ray and Char or whatever other combination. Domination is a blessing but also a bit of a curse. Because Dominators have Domination, their secondary sets and APPs lack many powers that would actually benefit from it.  It's true you can re-cast the same Hold power a few seconds later, but most Dominators do not have debuff, armor or healing. You need that boss held now.

Edited by oedipus_tex
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7 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

In permadom, sure.

 

My point is that a Dominator sans IOs has lower mezz duration than a Controller and actually usually has worse ability to handle a boss level enemy than a Blaster Controller Defender or Corruptor picked for that purpose. Dominators do not have the option to stack Freeze Ray and Char or whatever other combination. Domination is a blessing but also a bit of a curse. Because Dominators have Domination, their secondary sets and APPs lack many powers that would actually benefit from it.  It's true you can re-cast the same Hold power a few seconds later, but most Dominators do not have debuff, armor or healing. You need that boss held now.

 

My Plant/Psi dom lived by Teleknetic Thrust for the low levels.  Single Target Hold, then TK Thrust to make them fly the not-so-friendly-skies. Second Hold held the boss helpless before he could do much.  (Minions and Lieuts got Seeds...).  

 

I know lots of people reallly Hate KB. But there's times a ragdoll power can buy you those precious seconds and save your hash. 

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22 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I know lots of people reallly Hate KB. But there's times a ragdoll power can buy you those precious seconds and save your hash. 

I'm slow-levelling a grav/time controller solo and the knockback/knockup is absolutely worth it - it allows you to get an extra attack in while the enemy is still ragdolling in mid-air.

 

8 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

It's true you can re-cast the same Hold power a few seconds later, but most Dominators do not have debuff, armor or healing. You need that boss held now.

I'd put my controller's ability to not die down to his debuffs as much as the mezzes. -recharge is surprisingly overpowered at low-mid levels.

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