Rebuilding rage.

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

 

I think problems with game balance should be demonstrated with numbers. And that any proposed solutions to these problems should also be demonstrated with numbers.

So, in the context of this thread, what is needed:

• Numerical evidence of rage underperforming vs build up relative to the baseline damage/+tohit of SS vs other melee sets. (Suggest using War Mace for the comparison, as that's the set that Powerhouse has said is the most balanced.)
•  The numbers for the proposed solution, demonstrating clearly how they will close this performance gap.

 

I don't see Rage underperforming.  Not unless you are on some team where there is a lot of +DMG available, since then SS's poor DPA attacks will become a liability.  

But Rage's big strength is that you are running around with a lot more +DMG than most people.  Compensating for those attacks (specifically Jab, punch and haymaker)  

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, saltyorange said:

That's interesting and does help me understand why certain sets that seem like they would be resistance they made defense like stone armor. I guess the logic would be that even though it damages the rock it doesn't damage you so you take no damage. If they were using that logic what about something like fire armor? Shouldn't they have considered that defense because it's melting the bullets or whatever before it reaches your skin? Kinda strange.

 

Still though to me it's more clean to say that something is deflected as resistance approaches 100% and just make the defense stat about avoidance.

 

Fire I believe was resistance because ICE was defense

 

Even though with how things have changed, you'd think they should be the opposite 

 

[Marshal_General]

5 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

I don't see Rage underperforming.  Not unless you are on some team where there is a lot of +DMG available, since then SS's poor DPA attacks will become a liability.  

But Rage's big strength is that you are running around with a lot more +DMG than most people.  Compensating for those attacks (specifically Jab, punch and haymaker)  

It isn't so much that Rage under performs, but if you compare it to other damage boosting powers that can be kept active like Follow Up, then you have to wonder what makes it deserve the penalties. It has more of a buff for damage and tohit so maybe its enough to not let it stack?

Edited June 19, 2021 by Marshal_General

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Marshal_General said:

It isn't so much that Rage under performs, but if you compare it to other damage boosting powers that can be kept active like Follow Up, then you have to wonder what makes it deserve the penalties.

 

Follow up cant run +40% to hit, +160% to damage for a significant time.  With Double Rage you can. 

 

Even Single Rage is slightly better than double follow-up, and although you can possibly do triple follow-up for brief periods during things like AV killing, its requires levels of recharge that would net you double rage most of the time anyway on a comparable SS character.   

 

Capt Powerhouse offered to eliminate penalties on Single Rage entirely, and to make them spread out between def and resist on Double Rage, but people Balked.  

 

[Naraka]

4 minutes ago, saltyorange said:

That's interesting and does help me understand why certain sets that seem like they would be resistance they made defense like stone armor. I guess the logic would be that even though it damages the rock it doesn't damage you so you take no damage. If they were using that logic what about something like fire armor? Shouldn't they have considered that defense because it's melting the bullets or whatever before it reaches your skin? Kinda strange.

 

Still though to me it's more clean to say that something is deflected as resistance approaches 100% and just make the defense stat about avoidance.

That's because defense has flavor text of "dodge", "deflected" and "absorbed". I believe "missed" is if the roll was too low for the target's level or due to low ToHit. 

 

The "melting projectiles" sounds like a ToHit debuff mechanic since I don't see how that would work on a melee attack (if you melted their fist off, wouldn't that just be a defeat?). Overall, I think the concept of the set (fiery aura) is indeed melting things before they hit you but you're not vaporizing them before they touch you thus "something" is still going to hit you, just a more mushier something. Also, how do you melt an energy blast it a psychic attack, exactly?

[America's Angel]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I don't see Rage underperforming.

3 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

It isn't so much that Rage under performs[...]

 

Then there is no problem, which means there's no need for a solution and this thread can be closed.

 

Worth mentioning - if anyone believes the crash penalties make rage quantitatively worse than the alternatives (Build Up, Soul Drain, Focus, etc) when comparing super strength to other attack sets (taking into account that rageless SS has a lower DPS baseline than other sets), then that would demonstrate rage as underperforming.

 

(I don't believe this to be the case.)

Edited June 19, 2021 by America's Angel

[saltyorange]

3 minutes ago, Naraka said:

 I think the concept of the set (fiery aura) is indeed melting things before they hit you but you're not vaporizing them before they touch you thus "something" is still going to hit you, just a more mushier something.

I like this the most but I think at end of the day it isn't going to make sense it was just more important to have a fire armor set for game play diversity. I guess me using that it doesn't thematically make sense for it to buff your tohit isn't really a valid reason because you can make most things make sense if you try hard enough and it doesn't matter if they don't fully anyways like with fire armor.

 

I still think the core design with rage is broken. It's not like with other sets you can try to build around their weakness you just take a set about slam then ask people not to slam for 10 seconds. I know people say they use judgement or whatever but is that really when you should be using it? or are you just further crippling yourself by using it at a poor time to feel like you are not just sitting there for 10 seconds?

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, saltyorange said:

I still think the core design with rage is broken. It's not like with other sets you can try to build around their weakness you just take a set about slam then ask people not to slam for 10 seconds. I know people say they use judgement or whatever but is that really when you should be using it? or are you just further crippling yourself by using it at a poor time to feel like you are not just sitting there for 10 seconds?

 

yeah but its the 1:50 though .. 

[saltyorange]

18 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

yeah but its the 1:50 though .. 

What if it lasted 12 minutes and had a 60 second crash period? Would that bother you then? Something about it just feels bad to me. I don't really care if it becomes a toggle, can't be stacked, made weaker, the damage penalty reduced to something lower like -80% but lasts longer whatever I have seen many suggestions and prefer all of them to how it is now. Something about that -9999% for 10 seconds goes right up my anus and I hate it.

Edited June 19, 2021 by saltyorange

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, saltyorange said:

What if it lasted 12 minutes and had a 60 second crash period? Would that bother you then? Something about it just feels bad to me. I don't really care if it becomes a toggle, can't be stacked, made weaker, the damage penalty reduced to something lower like -80% but lasts longer whatever I have seen many suggestions and prefer all of them to how it is now. Something about that -9999% for 10 seconds goes right up my anus and I hate it.

 

You run into the classic MMO problem of balance.

 

You need to balance both based on how most people use something, and how some people are capable of using something.  Then weigh that against the fact that some people may be put off by it. 

 

In this case, Most people ignore the crash effects because they like have a 1:50 out of 2:00 build up effect.  Some people will rabidly hold onto Rage as it stands because they aren't playing the single rage game at all.  They want double rage for as long as they can.  Then there are some who are put off by the no damage, or the defense debuff or the END hit, etc.

 

To fix the issue that you speak of here, you still need to not somehow make life too easy on the double rage folks.   Because Double rage is extremely powerful.   

[Verfall]

5 minutes ago, saltyorange said:

What if it lasted 12 minutes and had a 60 second crash period? Would that bother you then? Something about it just feels bad to me. I don't really care if it becomes a toggle, can't be stacked, made weaker, the damage penalty reduced to something lower like -80% but lasts longer whatever I have seen many suggestions and prefer all of them to how it is now. Something about that -9999% for 10 seconds goes right up my anus and I hate it.

It's the ruining of the pace. It just kills the vibe. You're going hard than you fire up a KBlow and..it does 2 damage....

 

This game is all about the fast paced combat at the end game, but Rage just goes against that. Now the argument against is "well just don't take it". The problem is the set is balanced around the damn power. You can skip the build ups on other sets and you lose spike damage, but the sets function just fine. But SS is stupidly balanced around always running rage to achieve reasonable performance, only to have a ridiculous crash that impedes on the basic function of the damn set.

 

Take the damn power, flush it down the drain, buff the sets damage to be on par with the other sets, than find something to put in its place. To hell with the castle doctrine or DPA/S stats or whatever stupid argument we've used to justify the current situation. I'd rather lose the advantage of double stacked rage for a set that flows and works without hiccups, but achieves a reasonable performance on par with its peers.

[Supertanker]

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

 

I think problems with game balance should be demonstrated with numbers. And that any proposed solutions to these problems should also be demonstrated with numbers.

 

Not everything is numbers, sometimes it's just about what's fun.

[Snarky]

I NEVER double stack Rage.   I still hate the entire mechanic.  Why would i want two crashes?   I absolutely despise one.  The amount of power is not the issue.  It is the concept crushing crashes.  Do you see Luke Cage falling over every two minutes in combat grasping for breath?  The Thing? Colossus? The Hulk? Superman?  The Tick?  Mr Incredible, old and fat, never stopped to pant.  Name one Super Strength character that has to pause every couple minutes to swoon like a victorian era lady with her corset too tight

Edited June 19, 2021 by Snarky

[Lazarillo]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

At times I see it as a sort of weird irony where the sheer amount of choice and conceptual wiggle room we have ends up actually biting certain choices in the butt. 

This gets things into a bit of tangent, but this sort of thing hits me hard.  Like, for example, I have a hard time playing Street Justice because I hate the animation for Shin Breaker, and so I don't take it, but I still end up with this little voice in my head reminding me that I'd be "better" if I did and so I kinda beat myself up over it any time I don't do quite as well as I'd like, and conversely, Martial Arts, where I really like the animation for Thunder Kick, but it's "objectively" the worst attack in the set.

 

And actually that ends up applying to SS, too, because Jab, like Thunder Kick, is an attack where I really prefer the animation over Punch, especially, but I know I'm handicapping myself by using it, which just brings the set down even more on top of the Rage crash being so annoying.

[DrInfernus]

8 hours ago, Arnabas said:

I don't know... I agree with the first part here, but I don't think it's theme-destroying. I mean, the idea is to replicate Hulk-like characters who will Rage, do bonus damage, and then calm down and recuperate after everything has been smashed. Or like a berserker who kills everything in sight then passes out exhausted. So I don't see it as theme-destroying, but theme-enforcing (a theme that many may not want to play).

 

It's kind of interesting to me, though. Rage (along with certain other powers in other powersets, some of which have been drastically changed since inception) was built as a concept power suitable for people who like a little RP in their MMORPG. My first character was an Inv/ SS tanker who had Rage, but almost never used it. She only activated it when it seemed thematically appropriate, such as when she was injured and close to being overwhelmed, or facing a major villain. I still tend to play her that way much of the time.

 

Over the years, we moved away from things that added "flavour" to the game in an effort to pursue pure utility. I personally like to have some concept powers, but it seems few others feel the same.

I think the theme one is definitely quite subjective, although I’d argue that the Hulk style theme has been completely catered for by the Brute AT and the fury. That’s literally a case of the madder you get, the harder you hit, and once you calm down you return to normal. So that theme is definitely catered for. 
 

But then there’s the Superman style theme, where they just have super strength. And yet, with Rage how it is now, you make a super strength character and you somehow end somehow end up with (as far as my memory serves) the only powerset in the whole game which leaves you unable to do any damage at all for a spell, i.e. no strength at all. 
 

Definitely think super strength should come with a cost. You shouldn’t get it for nothing. Just don’t think the damage crash is remotely reasonable. 

[DrInfernus]

If stacking Rage is the problem, then why not just make it unstackable like hasten is? I mean, it was never supposed to be stackable. IOs made that happen. 
 

I know a lot of people kicked off about that but there’s plenty of us who have been left with a pretty much unplayable powerset for us because others want a bit more damage. That’s not a solution, it’s a surrender. 
 

You could even make it so Rage is stackable with crash on Brutes yet unstackable and crash less on tanks. That way those who need the damage fix are served, and those who can’t abide the crash are served. Everyone has an option, everyone has a solution.
 

Feels like there’s so much middle ground to explore yet we are stuck in an ‘all or nothing’ mentality. 

[Hew]

This thread is an example of why it will likely never be changed: Two sides, refusing to meet in the middle. When the opportunity to meet in the middle was coded, tested, and presented, the vitriol this type of thread presents sunk that opportunity faster than the Titanic. 

 

EVERYONE in this thread that is complaining will _have to give up something_ if any change is to be had.0 

 

If you yourself find you are posting here about the travails of SS, ask yourself, how do you meet the other side in the middle? What will you give up? What will you accept?  If you can't do this, then there is little to no point in you posting.

[Vanden]

8 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I don't see a power or  powerset name and what your character's powers are in a "Roleplay" sense are necessarily linked by unbreakable graphine titanium chains 

 

Yeah, it seems pretty hypocritical to me for one to accuse the original devs of a lack of creativity when one can’t even conceive of a character whose concept doesn’t follow its powers’ in-game mechanics 1-to-1.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Hew said:

This thread is an example of why it will likely never be changed: Two sides, refusing to meet in the middle. When the opportunity to meet in the middle was coded, tested, and presented, the vitriol this type of thread presents sunk that opportunity faster than the Titanic. 

 

EVERYONE in this thread that is complaining will _have to give up something_ if any change is to be had.0 

 

If you yourself find you are posting here about the travails of SS, ask yourself, how do you meet the other side in the middle? What will you give up? What will you accept?  If you can't do this, then there is little to no point in you posting.

It has been said a thousand times.  And said again just a few posts above.  No other power set leaves you debilitated on a regular basis just to have parity with everyone else

 

meet in the middle?   How about an equal place at the table?

[Marshal_General]

I think they only way to solve the problem is to make two powers, one where you can get strong and be penalized for it and another where you can just be strong, but I think they said that doing that with Master Brawler was such a PITA that they would never do it again.

[Snarky]

34 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

I think they only way to solve the problem is to make two powers, one where you can get strong and be penalized for it and another where you can just be strong, but I think they said that doing that with Master Brawler was such a PITA that they would never do it again.

so the fix is even easier.  make it a different power set.  i will gladly level more 50s

 

[Marshal_General]

Just now, Snarky said:

so the fix is even easier.  make it a different power set.  i will gladly level more 50s

 

You act like we have a 1000 slots or something!

[Vanden]

48 minutes ago, Snarky said:

 No other power set leaves you debilitated on a regular basis just to have parity with everyone else

 

Just to clarify, are you claiming that the crash is a penalty for the damage buff bringing SS up to par, or that it's what keeps SS from outperforming everything else?

[Snarky]

32 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

Just to clarify, are you claiming that the crash is a penalty for the damage buff bringing SS up to par, or that it's what keeps SS from outperforming everything else?

to be clear, with great wherewithal, henceforth, and forevermor, in this year of our Lord Recluse I have stated these incontrovertible facts:

 

1) Super Strength is not the best damage dealing set for Tanks or Brutes.  It may be near the top.   But it is not standing over anyone.  

1b)  check powergamer builds.  SS is not the go to.

 

2) The crash is a Homey Clown "bonk on the Head" every 2 minutes just for playing the set. 

2b) NO OTHER SET IN THE GAME PUTS THE GAMER IN A TIME OUT EVERY TWO MINUTES JUST TO KEEP PLAYING

 

3) This whole "What do we do about it?" conversation is now in it's second decade.  

3b) If this was not such an iconic comic book power set I would have moved on years ago.  

3c)  How could you screw this up?  Seriously?  Then stand behind some cottage rule like the CEOs coked out son "This is how we do business here.  this is good. why do you have a problem with it?"

 

Guess what?  I would put real money that most of those people screaming how bad the changes were on the test server?  You give them an alternate power set where they have to level enhance accolade and incarnate the new SS toon?  95% will do all the work just to play the new SS and avoid the rage crash.  Even though they whined like an engine with no oil about how horrid it was.  Because everybody hates the crash.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Snarky

[DrInfernus]

3 hours ago, Hew said:

This thread is an example of why it will likely never be changed: Two sides, refusing to meet in the middle. When the opportunity to meet in the middle was coded, tested, and presented, the vitriol this type of thread presents sunk that opportunity faster than the Titanic. 

 

EVERYONE in this thread that is complaining will _have to give up something_ if any change is to be had.0 

 

If you yourself find you are posting here about the travails of SS, ask yourself, how do you meet the other side in the middle? What will you give up? What will you accept?  If you can't do this, then there is little to no point in you posting.

Don’t think that’s fair at all tbh. How can we give something up when many of us are saying SS is unusable to us in its current form? 
 

From my perspective, at the moment there is nothing about SS to give up because I’m not using it specifically because of Rage. So what position would you like me to take?