So, procs...

[Naraka]

I don't think it's a secret that procs and the PPM system is being looked at and I'd like to talk about it, the purpose of procs, the implication a proc change would have and your personal view about procs or how to change them.  Overall, I was a big fan of procs back in the day, not because I liked to game them in high recharge powers but rather I liked to have "crits" on my defender or tanker.  I just enjoyed the "reward" of occasionally getting something extra...kind of like getting that KB chance in your Radiation blast cone.  I'm only aware of the old % chance system and a rudimentary understanding of the current PPM system that was introduced on live (I think) and adjusted with the new formula on HC.

 

I feel that, from reading the prospect of the PPM feedback thus far, that there are a good amount of circumstances that IO procs have outpaced certain aspects of damage that probably weren't meant to happen and that's part of why procs are getting looked at.  I would like to keep in mind that damage procs aren't the only thing on the table here that should be considered.  Things like KB>KD, debuff procs and buff procs are also in this mess and should be considered when rebalancing is occurring.

 

That all being said, to express my personal views of the current state of procs: ...it's tough to say.  As a fan of old procs and using them to either make artificial "crits" for some ATs that don't have them or to specialize in using a particular power that manifests it into a "proc attack", I do enjoy building certain powers to use them.  If they redid the balance around procs, I wouldn't be too bummed because I tend to recognize when something is too gameable...BUT....how?

 

Separating my own bias of my enjoyment of procs in this suggestion thread, how would it be possible to alter the trajectory of balance for this particular feature?  I think I'll try and outline my own ideas here but isn't @Bopper the expert on them?  Anyways...I'll try to organize the propositions from least radical to most just because I want to get some conversation going.

 

 

Proposition #1: Tweak the PPM formula

 

Probably the easiest and the one I'm least capable of commenting about.  I have used the current formula to keep my procs at a decent range of chance but I'm not going to pretend I've mulled over HOW you could tweak the formula to balance it for the many many circumstances and power applications.  I will say, if this is going to be the the one used, I'd implore giving special treatment to debuff procs that aren't -res (lol).  Things like endurance drain, -ToHit, etc seem bogged downed and underpowered in the current system.

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Naraka

[Naraka]

Proposition #2: Multi-formula Procs

 

So there was a previous system of % chance procs before PPM.  If we look back at this particular system, that was a bit broken for certain high-activation powers like Caltrops (capable of slotting the Positron's Blast proc, the Javelin's Volley proc, the Annihilation proc, the Pace of the Turtle proc, the Impede Swiftness proc, the Overwhelming Force proc and any ATO proc that might be useful) or low recharge powers, right?  Was that a wholly bad thing, tho?  It was?  Okay, well what if some of those procs weren't % base?  What if some were PPM and some were %?  There might be a big more worth to having Pace of the Turtle proc be % based, Javelin's Volley proc be % based and the others be PPM based?  You could even add other formulas or even have every proc have a unique formula to calculate their activations.

 

What does this do?  It diversifies the conditions to maximize the procs so they don't all fall under "whatever recharges quickest", "whatever activates most often", "what appeases the area factor, recharge and/or activation speed of the formula", etc.  The main issue this solution would tackle is stacking *A LOT* of procs into singular powers.

 

I feel this would be an interesting possibility mainly for build diversity.  As is, using procs under PPM on low recharging powers isn't that attractive but Holds tend to have either long activations or long recharges on top of having several hold damage procs, you can transform that control into a blast.  I don't want to particularly take that functionality away but do see it might be useful to limit that hold from becoming a tier 3 blast into just a tier 2 blast instead.

 

On top of that, you could create new options to make this avenue more universal.  Like for -rech procs, you could change it to a unique "proc over time %" option where instead of a simple % chance to proc a certain -rech debuff, it will proc -rech every second that stacks or recharges while the power that activates it is in effect.  Or for something like the Razzle Dazzle immobilize proc, make it 100% proc for 5sec *IF* the target is stunned and a base % chance to proc if they aren't.

 

In this proposition, there could be more freedom to balance procs on an individual basis and have a better limiting factor on "proc bombs" (looking at you, Savage Leap) while making other "useless procs" more useful.  I think this is the most flexible and balance-able.

 

[Naraka]

Proposition #3: Set-allied Procs

 

This one is truly radical and would need a rework of a lot of sets to do.  Set allied procs would be just a blanket alteration of how procs are calculated via same-set effects.  Think of it like adding the proc to a set would give either a PPM chance that is 1/3 lower than the current chance OR 1/3 the damage of a current proc and every relevant set IO would then increase the chance and/or damage of the proc up to a maximum of +3.  I say +3 because that is the minimum number of IOs in a set so having *at least* 3 of an IO with a proc damage bonus would get you current PPM damage.

 

This does several things:  it limits the maximal proc damage to, maybe 3?  I say maybe because having a proc set of IOs up to 3 + a proc set of IOs up to 2 + 1 more proc set *MIGHT* get you a marginal increase of *POSSIBLE* damage *IF* you crunch the numbers and the activation and cooldowns line up...but you're weighing that marginal damage increase against the bonuses you'd get from changing that +2 set to +3 OR sacrificing the slot for it OR the enhancement bonus of the power itself.

 

It's hard to weigh the overall effect of such a change since the circumstances of slotting the procs differs...which is why I would suggest a "buff" aspect to such a proposition to make it even *MORE* worthwhile to have only *ONE* proc in a set *IF* you decided to slot out a power with up to 5 same-set IOs.  In the case of, say, a Defender's Neutrino Bolt, slotting the "proc" for neg-energy damage by itself would net you a low chance of occurring and the damage would be reduced...but if you decided to slot it up to 4 or 5 slots all with Touch of Lady Grey, for every enhancement you increase the damage and chance of that proc equal to 1.75-2 procs of damage at maximal PPM standards.

 

In this case, rather than having lots of procs, you would want same set enhancements to give you *better* procs instead of more.  On top of that, rather than the sole proc IO, you'd likely have to alter all of them to be actual enhancements (changing the "chance to do x damage" into +accuracy/x or something) and then make the actual effect of the proc inherent to the IO set.

 

This would be the most radically different suggestion and doing away with the 1/2 proc power choices but for the benefit of increasing that proc.  Conceptually, it might be better if you're trying to approximate a unique power effect but it would be *VERY* different from the current form.

[...]

My solution: only 1 proc per power. 

[Naraka]

2 minutes ago, Vooded said:

My solution: only 1 proc per power. 

 

As a fan of proc damage, I feel, as a solution, that would be the most radical and most draconian of solutions worthy of the slot of Proposition #12.

[...]

Just now, Naraka said:

 

As a fan of proc damage, I feel, as a solution, that would be the most radical and most draconian of solutions worthy of the slot of Proposition #12.

 

Yes. 

 

That's the point. Procs are too powerful and need a drastic nerf. 

[Naraka]

2 minutes ago, Vooded said:

 

Yes. 

 

That's the point. Procs are too powerful and need a drastic nerf. 

I don't completely disagree with you but at the same time, there is a spectrum to nerfs and not everything that is too powerful needs the Regen treatment....I was going to say the GDN treatment but we're still kind of steeped in def-softcapped supremacy so perhaps that wasn't enough.

[...]

7 minutes ago, Naraka said:

I don't completely disagree with you but at the same time, there is a spectrum to nerfs and not everything that is too powerful needs the Regen treatment....I was going to say the GDN treatment but we're still kind of steeped in def-softcapped supremacy so perhaps that wasn't enough.

 

Ya.

 

To support my position more thoroughly though: I envision procs primarily as a way to slightly go above the 100% ED soft-cap for dmg. 

 

As is, procs can entirely replace dmg enhancements in some powers, and turn holds into nukes.

 

That. Doesn't. Make. Sense.

 

So limit them. 

 

Plain, simple, won't increase server load, and maybe easy-to-code?

 

Also maintains functionality of some procs in some powers. FF +recharge being a nice example. 

[Outrider_01]

Boogitty boogitty boo!

Edited July 25, 2021 by Outrider_01

[Naraka]

25 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

If you don't like them, don't worry about it as someone else isn't going to ruin your day intentionally by slotting 2-4 procs in some attacks.  Incarnates and IO are no different but very powerful beyond the games intent of SO level enhancements, my last 3 50s are just IOed out and not even incarnate nor do I play them much.

 

 

I'm with you here. Most of the characters I have that use incarnate powers are moreso used to assist in funding other characters and aren't often used outside of that.  But at the same time, saying "just don't use them" kind of undermines the point of the discussion as some players that find procs OP likely already don't use them similar to players that don't like the balance of incarnates might just ignore them all together.

 

As for a lot of your other suggestions, altering the balance of IO bonuses outside of procs isn't the purpose of this thread.  Not putting it off the table, just saying it's going off topic.

 

As for the prospect of limiting procs, what about Razzle Dazzle, Stupefy, Absolute Amazement, Dark Watcher's, etc procs?  

[Mezmera]

Maining a dom you kind of get used to making use of every slot getting every attractive set you can and end up chasing so many things like recharge, defense and hp that it's rare to have a power where I can double up on a proc.  I do think a power getting to proc more than 3 different procs in that power is overkill.  Two is completely fine, for instance on my dom's aoe hold I like to 5 slot the purple set with the damage proc so I can get that recharge bonus but then I'll add a 6th slot for the gladiator proc so that the hold gives me some nice aoe damage.   I don't feel that's abusive at all since these aoe holds have long recharges so you're not getting to spam stupid damage at all times.  

 

I think there should just be at most two damage procs in a power ability.  All purple damage typed sets should have the damage procs, which I'd also like to see the target aoe one changed to a damage proc, other than that maybe the only other allowable damage procs would be the ones from the pvp sets.  All the other damage ones should be changed to something more creative than moar damage.  The set bonuses could be adjusted too to make some of the sets attractive to build for.  

 

As for limiting other procs I'm not sure where we get to the point of what's abusive and not.  I was tinkering with my dom's dark consumption which I have as an emergency end fix but I wanted to make more use out of it and based on the long recharge any proc I put into it is pretty much sure fire.  I ended up putting the pvp -res proc into it and boy does the group of enemies melt when I use this power on them.   With this capable debuff plus I also have Weaken Resolve with an achilles proc in it my thinking was to be a versatile asset to the team should we ever really need the debuffing.  

 

Also I think all of the defense and resistance sets are just right.  They're all good, everyone has access to get them and there's no purple/winter sets needed since there's already so many good things there already.  

 

I don't mind procs being looked into but I'd still like there to be avenues of creativity available to people even if they turn out to be real strong experiments.  Some abusive proc'ing does need checked though *cough* bonfire *cough*.     

Edited July 2, 2021 by Mezmera

[VashNKnives]

Please use ultra-precision laser scalpels. I don't want major game features to feel pointless. The addition of IOs to this game was a major bonus. Enhancement diversification may have also been seen as needed but boy.... let's just be careful.

 

If damage is the issue with certain powers using certain types of builds then please just deal with that. Deal with the outliers, don't nuke the system. Buff what is needed and nerf carefully.

 

Also it'd be nice to have some in-game UI help with proc formulas especially if special tweaks start flying around. Being required to find posts or help from mathletic players to know if the thing you are doing throughout your build is actually worse than simple slotting to ED DR soft caps is not immersive and I think that really is where this starts feeling unfair.

Edited July 2, 2021 by VashNKnives

[Naraka]

7 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

...

I don't mind procs being looked into but I'd still like there to be avenues of creativity available to people even if they turn out to be real strong experiments.     

 

That's why I kind of opened up with multiple avenues of discussion.  The thing is, the change from % procs to PPM procs kind of screwed over some of that creativity too which is just something I'd like to bring to light if ideas are being bounced around for change or for players, if changes do come down the pipeline, not just fixating on the negatives and looking toward broader ideas of how a changed system could bring about more creativity even at the cost of reduction of some of the maximal build strategies.

 

5 minutes ago, VashNKnives said:

Please use ultra-precision laser scalpels. I don't want major game features to feel pointless. The addition of IOs to this game was a major bonus. Enhancement diversification may have also been seen as needed but boy.... let's just be careful.

 

If damage is the issue with certain powers using certain types of builds then please just deal with that. Deal with the outliers, don't nuke the system, including even buffs in some cases.

 

Also it be nice to have some in-game UI help with proc formulas especially if special tweaks start flying around. Being required to find posts or help from mathletic players to know if the thing you are doing throughout your build is actually worse than simple slotting to ED DR soft caps is not immersive and I think that really is where this starts feeling unfair.

 

Like I mentioned before, I'm curious what you feel about the other non-damage procs.  Heck, even the +ToHit proc in the -ToHit sets probably doesn't see much use...I'm interested in siphoning some of the "proc bomb" synergy into the lesser used procs too.

[Mezmera]

5 minutes ago, Naraka said:

That's why I kind of opened up with multiple avenues of discussion.  The thing is, the change from % procs to PPM procs kind of screwed over some of that creativity too which is just something I'd like to bring to light if ideas are being bounced around for change or for players, if changes do come down the pipeline, not just fixating on the negatives and looking toward broader ideas of how a changed system could bring about more creativity even at the cost of reduction of some of the maximal build strategies.

 

Yeah I liked the old % chance but the PPM change is very beneficial to some powers where it wasn't as such before and some powers got screwed over sure.  It's pretty much the avenue of creativity shifted from one thing to another.  I do like the PPM formula for those real long recharging powers since it makes those powers a bit more attractive.  But they should also be limited in how much proci'ng you can abuse in such a power.  

 

A hybrid approach wouldn't be so bad either if they are able to enable something like that.  Something where there's the ability for procs to be % and others to be PPM.  The % for sure will benefit fast charging ST attacks.  

 

It's tough they essentially need to be sure to review every single proc and how it interacts best with powers it's able to be slotted in.  All without pissing off a majority of people that have gotten accustomed to the formula we now have.  

[VashNKnives]

25 minutes ago, Naraka said:

 

That's why I kind of opened up with multiple avenues of discussion.  The thing is, the change from % procs to PPM procs kind of screwed over some of that creativity too which is just something I'd like to bring to light if ideas are being bounced around for change or for players, if changes do come down the pipeline, not just fixating on the negatives and looking toward broader ideas of how a changed system could bring about more creativity even at the cost of reduction of some of the maximal build strategies.

 

 

Like I mentioned before, I'm curious what you feel about the other non-damage procs.  Heck, even the +ToHit proc in the -ToHit sets probably doesn't see much use...I'm interested in siphoning some of the "proc bomb" synergy into the lesser used procs too.

In my humble and also not expert opinion some but not all debuffs could use buffs 🤣 How is that for a weak answer? End drain is so niche that I can't believe anyone loads-up damage powers to attempt a zapper build without actually having dedicated zapper powers already, but a big buff to some draining IOs like tempest could be too exploitable because ranged damage powers are common. Same with tohit debuff except tohit debuff is much more universal and helpful for mitigation if you balance it with some defense -- making scalpels the preference vs broadswords.

 

Just my 2 cents, big changes tend to bring **different** problems vs solving everything. Also, unless completely broken I personally don't like having to get a PHD in a whole new system and respeccing all my characters...

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by VashNKnives

[Myrmidon]

4 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

12. KB->KD, unique so no more slotting every attack to make your group happy

I see that an Exorcism is in order here.

[Naraka]

8 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

I see that an Exorcism is in order here.

 

W̵̮̭̤̝͎͚̞̏͊̅̾̿̿̀́̽̄̑͊̈̊̀͋̍̅͐̾̌̈́̎̅̑̀̕̕͝͝͠͝͝͝ę̶̨̢̛̹̗̠͓̮̘̝̠͙͎̭͓̳̘͎͎̘̘̞̙̻͔͕̞̞͉͎̟̻̤̖̟̯̙͕̠̜̣͉͚̜͍̖̋͌͋̈͌̉́͛̏̀̈̂̒͂͒̔͂́̊̕͘̚ͅͅ ̵̡̧̛̥̹͈̲̫̪͇̠̦̞̜͚͕̗̬͚̹͔̺̦͍̩͎̹͇͈͔̳̩͈̦͎̝̤̹̮̓͊̉͛͒̉̑͒̆͐͌̓̀̉̑̽̏̆͆͋̅̾͛͂̍͒̓̅͑̑̌̓͛̀͘̕̚̚ͅͅA̷̡̘̤̥̦͒̈́̂͆̃́̏͌̄̆̓̑̂͆̈́̎̒́̆́̇̿́̑͛͒͛̈́̎̕͠͝ȑ̵̢̹͈̭̪̖͇͍̞̦͎̝̖̯͚́͐͆̐͆̾͒͛̑́̾́͒ĕ̴̢̛̻̱̘̞͚̣̰̜̣̠͓͎͈̳̣̏̆̄́̐͆̂͌̋͌͐̓̄̃̈́̒̔̐͒́̍́͆͑͆̾̌̏̋͌̇̃̀͘͘̕͠͠͝ ̸̡̨̡͕͕̼̯͖̫̞̦̤̮̣̝̺̮͇̖̹̹͚̘̬͙̙̖̰͔̟̯̜̠̻͔̲̭͌͛͒̀̍̈̆͑̐́̄́̀̿͊̾͂͘ͅͅͅL̷̡̧̧̛͓̠͓̥̰̭̣͍͔̼̲̦̲̱͖̩̼̱̹̱̄e̸̡̢͙͚̟̫̼̜͉͉̮̲͔̖̣̗̖̻̩̦̰̒̅̀̾͆̓̄͂̂̒̑͂̈͜͠ͅg̵̢̧̛̣̺̱͇̗͎͉̖͍̰͔̟̠͇̺̬͉̟̠̲̲̬̹̫͎̺̙̲̘͙̰͚̪̟͖̦͇̹̺̤̤͇̞͗̒̀͗̽̅͆͂̍̊̍̉̈̿̈͋́͊͂̓̈́͒̃̿́̎͑͗̕̚͠͠į̵̢̩̥͈̘͕̗̥͈͓̥͈̭̪̥̩̯̹̭͕̦̠̠̮͎̻͛̏͊͑̏̀̿͆͑̅̑̈́͗͛͛͌͐̏̽̄͑̄̇̑̕͘͜͠͠ͅơ̶̡̨̧̜̰̦̞̫̼̞̯̱̥͇͓͇̦͙̂͑̔̎̓̅̆̿̈̈́͌̂̄̏̆͂̊̾͑̍̊̀̑̌͝͝ń̷̨̯̫̺͙̣̗̮͕̟̘̙̩̙̤͖̦̰̣̼̞̀͊̕

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...ahem, now there is merit to this part of the discussion.  First of all, there could be multiple avenues of KB>KD using IO set bonuses as well as changing things from being specific powers to globals.  Beyond that, I think *some* uses of KB>KD are broken and alter the balance and could warrant a revisit for balance (main culprit here would be Bonfire).

[Pzn]

8 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

 

 

3 times, you have an adamant and biased opinion they are broken.

 

Fun fact :  They are optional.  If you don't like them, don't worry about it as someone else isn't going to ruin your day intentionally by slotting 2-4 procs in some attacks.  Incarnates and IO are no different but very powerful beyond the games intent of SO level enhancements, my last 3 50s are just IOed out and not even incarnate nor do I play them much.

 

You know, I got a better proposition that will agree with yours.

1. Limit procs

2. All IO bonuses stack to 3

3. LOTG global recharge, unique

4. IO def bonus above 3% is cut in half (Aegis/ATO example), Steadfast/Gladiators 3% is universal unique  and positional defense only.

5. All ATO bonuses like 10% recharge and 5% defense on slot 3, moved to slot 5.

6. All recharge bonuses are in slot 5, everything not purple is 5% (Basilisk slot 4, goes to 5 and the taunt slot 6 7.5% slot 5)

7. Winter sets, universal unique BAM! Fixed farming

8. Purples, universal unique BAM! Fixed perma hasten

9. Force Feed Back recharge, unique.
10. -Resist procs, universal unique.  Fix Ranged AoE (non-unique), -Defense (non-unique), PBAoE (unique? why?)

11. KB protection, universal unique so goodbye stacking defense and resist sets

12. KB->KD, unique so no more slotting every attack to make your group happy

Sorry but I like using those things so that's off-limits.  I only want to nerf the stuff I don't like using

[Marbing]

I feel like a simple solution could be that certain procs that are considered OP (mainly damage procs) can only be used IF you have  at least 3 of that procs set in that power. So if you wanted to use the dmg proc in the set, you must have at least 2 others from that set in the power. That would effectively reduce the number of dmg procs you could put in one power. I wouldn't say do this to ALL procs, because some are used rarely and could probably use a buff (to give more options), but dmg procs in particular are abused wayyy too much. Maybe that would be do heavy a dependency?

[Myrmidon]

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

W̵̮̭̤̝͎͚̞̏͊̅̾̿̿̀́̽̄̑͊̈̊̀͋̍̅͐̾̌̈́̎̅̑̀̕̕͝͝͠͝͝͝ę̶̨̢̛̹̗̠͓̮̘̝̠͙͎̭͓̳̘͎͎̘̘̞̙̻͔͕̞̞͉͎̟̻̤̖̟̯̙͕̠̜̣͉͚̜͍̖̋͌͋̈͌̉́͛̏̀̈̂̒͂͒̔͂́̊̕͘̚ͅͅ ̵̡̧̛̥̹͈̲̫̪͇̠̦̞̜͚͕̗̬͚̹͔̺̦͍̩͎̹͇͈͔̳̩͈̦͎̝̤̹̮̓͊̉͛͒̉̑͒̆͐͌̓̀̉̑̽̏̆͆͋̅̾͛͂̍͒̓̅͑̑̌̓͛̀͘̕̚̚ͅͅA̷̡̘̤̥̦͒̈́̂͆̃́̏͌̄̆̓̑̂͆̈́̎̒́̆́̇̿́̑͛͒͛̈́̎̕͠͝ȑ̵̢̹͈̭̪̖͇͍̞̦͎̝̖̯͚́͐͆̐͆̾͒͛̑́̾́͒ĕ̴̢̛̻̱̘̞͚̣̰̜̣̠͓͎͈̳̣̏̆̄́̐͆̂͌̋͌͐̓̄̃̈́̒̔̐͒́̍́͆͑͆̾̌̏̋͌̇̃̀͘͘̕͠͠͝ ̸̡̨̡͕͕̼̯͖̫̞̦̤̮̣̝̺̮͇̖̹̹͚̘̬͙̙̖̰͔̟̯̜̠̻͔̲̭͌͛͒̀̍̈̆͑̐́̄́̀̿͊̾͂͘ͅͅͅL̷̡̧̧̛͓̠͓̥̰̭̣͍͔̼̲̦̲̱͖̩̼̱̹̱̄e̸̡̢͙͚̟̫̼̜͉͉̮̲͔̖̣̗̖̻̩̦̰̒̅̀̾͆̓̄͂̂̒̑͂̈͜͠ͅg̵̢̧̛̣̺̱͇̗͎͉̖͍̰͔̟̠͇̺̬͉̟̠̲̲̬̹̫͎̺̙̲̘͙̰͚̪̟͖̦͇̹̺̤̤͇̞͗̒̀͗̽̅͆͂̍̊̍̉̈̿̈͋́͊͂̓̈́͒̃̿́̎͑͗̕̚͠͠į̵̢̩̥͈̘͕̗̥͈͓̥͈̭̪̥̩̯̹̭͕̦̠̠̮͎̻͛̏͊͑̏̀̿͆͑̅̑̈́͗͛͛͌͐̏̽̄͑̄̇̑̕͘͜͠͠ͅơ̶̡̨̧̜̰̦̞̫̼̞̯̱̥͇͓͇̦͙̂͑̔̎̓̅̆̿̈̈́͌̂̄̏̆͂̊̾͑̍̊̀̑̌͝͝ń̷̨̯̫̺͙̣̗̮͕̟̘̙̩̙̤͖̦̰̣̼̞̀͊̕

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, now I need a young priest and an old priest…

 

4 hours ago, Naraka said:

...ahem, now there is merit to this part of the discussion.  First of all, there could be multiple avenues of KB>KD using IO set bonuses as well as changing things from being specific powers to globals.  Beyond that, I think *some* uses of KB>KD are broken and alter the balance and could warrant a revisit for balance (main culprit here would be Bonfire).

Bonfire, Repel, a decent amount of the Storm set. If it wasn’t for all of the KB in Energy Blast (I’ll go ahead and include the Kheld Cthulhu Sperm in this one as well), I would be onboard. Unless, we get that KB-KD revert from Null.

[aethereal]

10 hours ago, Vooded said:

 

Ya.

 

To support my position more thoroughly though: I envision procs primarily as a way to slightly go above the 100% ED soft-cap for dmg. 

You might like my proposal from a while ago to turn most damage procs into damage enhancements that ignore ED cap (in return for a lower overall damage enhancement).

 

 

[...]

12 minutes ago, aethereal said:

You might like my proposal from a while ago to turn most damage procs into damage enhancements that ignore ED cap (in return for a lower overall damage enhancement).

 

 

 

I do.

 

Especially the part where it could be 75% chance for 25% +dmg. I think the randomness is important. A bit like critting. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Vooded
Excessive spacing

[aethereal]

So @Naraka I feel like what this thread is missing is a breakdown of what's wrong with the current PPM system.  Here's my list:

 

1.  It further emphasized the value of global recharge.  That was insane.  The idea that, at issue 22, you looked at CoH's meta and said, "What this game needs is more incentive for everyone to pick Hasten and gather recharge set bonuses" is just...  it beggars the imagination.

 

2.  It is incredibly illegible.  In order to figure out whether a power procs well, you have to understand not just the raw formula of the PPM math (which isn't hard, but isn't something you can do in your head, especially for AoE powers), but also the caps on proc rate, the whole global/local recharge difference (including the distinction that alpha recharge is "local"), the lockouts on sustained powers, the lockouts on certain procs (like the healing ones and the stalker ATO), and whether a power procs on its own activation or on a pseudopet (completely impossible to find out within game, you have to go to external sources).  As a result, if you aren't someone who obsessively reads the fora, you have no fucking idea whether a proc is good or bad in a power.

 

3.  PPM in its current form rewards 15-20 second recharge powers.  With perma-hasten levels of global recharge, those powers recharge in 5-10 seconds -- ie, about one attack rotation.  That makes them the highest-damage powers that you can likely fit into a reasonable attack rotation, which in turn means we've really focused the game on 15-20 second recharge powers.  Your best powers are also the best powers to proc.

 

4.  The fundamental conceit of PPM was that people would be roughly equally happy with a 20% chance to proc 70 damage 10 times per minute and an 80% chance to proc 70 damage 2.5 times per minute.  But they aren't.  People hate low proc rates, even if they are on fast-recharging powers.

 

As a result of these problems, I think that there is no possible tweak to the PPM formula that will make this system work.  PPM is bad.  It needs to be replaced with a fundamentally different system.

 

PPM delenda est.

[EmperorSteele]

I like the idea of procs starting weak, but get better as you slot more of the same set.

 

I think what could also be done, instead of a fully draconian one proc per power, is to limit procs within a power by rarity/type. So only one rare, one purple, one PvP, and one ATO allowed each per power. So you could still proc load quite a bit (max of 4 procs per power), but not quite as much as we do now. 

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by EmperorSteele
Wording

[Gobbledigook]

Changing Procs would break so many builds and upset a fair few players, if not done well i reckon.  

 

Sentinels for example have some of their best attacks available to them in the epic pool fully procced out. 

 

Big change no, small tweaks ok imo, unless there is some grand plan we don't know about. Maybe just reduce the damage etc of the procs a little. But i've never seen the problem with them. To use them you are missing out on some set bonuses anyway.