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18 hours ago, Player-1 said:

Something that would be helpful to such a discussion would be actually sorting through all the "procs" and categorizing them and what they do to shed light on what is actually going on. It could be something as simple as:

 

Category Set Proc / Bonus
Accurate Healing Theft of Essence Chance of +End
Accurate Healing Touch of the Nictus Chance of Negative energy damage
Def Debuff Touch of Lady Grey Chance of Negative energy damage
Def Debuff Achilles' Heel Chance of -Res
    And so on...

 

 

Getting a visual could allow better discourse on whatever "problems" there may be instead of dancing around "certain procs" are problematic 🙂

 

 

 

 

It would be great if you could just say these are the procs or issues we are having an issue with certain load out of procs..  Then the player base will have something to work from. Right now just seems like a lot of guessing. 

Or just post one proc at a time or combo at a time and let the player base give suggestions on those and then move onto the next, otherwise it will be a million post on different procs in one thread. 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, plainguy said:

It would be great if you could just say these are the procs or issues we are having an issue with certain load out of procs..  Then the player base will have something to work from. Right now just seems like a lot of guessing. 

Or just post one proc at a time or combo at a time and let the player base give suggestions on those and then move onto the next, otherwise it will be a million post on different procs in one thread. 

 

 

 

Seems a tad demanding.

 

I took the post as a bit of advice to help the discussion because, at least from my perspective, I'm not nor have I ever been that interested in what procs the devs intend to look into but rather what ideas could be gleaned from other players' opinions and interactions with the various procs and slotting choices.  Some are so laser focused on being the individual to "solve" the "problem", they stifle discussion and don't look outside of their bubble.

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3 hours ago, Ukase said:

I think the rules need to be more understood by more players before we can really ask opinions. Some folks may give their thoughts but despite the best of intentions may not fully understand how they work, (And how they could be applied by people smarter than me for maximum carnage). My solution would be very unpopular, and probably make proc-monster builds untenable. Only allow the proc to work when slotted with at least one of the others within it's set. And then remove this "Chance" to fire nonsense, but have it fire. Takes away the need for all this bloody math. 

 

I'd have to think more on this, but this plus a rebalancing of proc effects (since PPM is no longer operative) might be a nifty way of re-working the whole thing.

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19 hours ago, Player-1 said:

Something that would be helpful to such a discussion would be actually sorting through all the "procs" and categorizing them and what they do to shed light on what is actually going on. It could be something as simple as:

 

Category Set Proc / Bonus
Accurate Healing Theft of Essence Chance of +End
Accurate Healing Touch of the Nictus Chance of Negative energy damage
Def Debuff Touch of Lady Grey Chance of Negative energy damage
Def Debuff Achilles' Heel Chance of -Res
    And so on...

 

 

Getting a visual could allow better discourse on whatever "problems" there may be instead of dancing around "certain procs" are problematic 🙂

 

 

 

 

 

This is from the PPM spreadsheet, if it'll help:

 

TYPE SET PROC AMOUNT PPM
Accurate Def Debuff Analyze Weakness +Tohit 20% +tohit, 10 sec 2
Accurate Def Debuff Shield Breaker Lethal damage 71.75 3.5
Accurate Healing Theft of Essence +End 10% +end 3.5
Accurate Healing Touch of the Nictus Negative energy damage 71.75 3.5
Accurate Tohit Debuff Siphon Insight +Tohit 20% +tohit, 10 sec 2
Accurate Tohit Debuff Cloud Senses Negative energy damage 71.75 3.5
Blaster ATO Blaster's Wrath Fire damage 71.75 4
Blaster ATO Superior Blaster's Wrath Fire damage 107.1 5
Blaster ATO Defiant Barrage Status protection 20% mez resist (all), 10.25 sec 3
Blaster ATO Superior Defiant Barrage Status protection 20% mez resist (all), 10.25 sec 4
Brute ATO Brute's Fury +Fury 5 4
Brute ATO Superior Brute's Fury +Fury 7 5
Brute ATO Unrelenting Fury +Regen/+End discount 15% +regen, 5% end discount, 10.25 sec 6
Brute ATO Superior Unrelenting Fury +Regen/+End discount 20% +regen, 6.65% end discount, 10.25 sec 7
Confuse Cacophony Energy damage 71.75 3.5
Confuse Malaise's Illusions Psionic damage 71.75 3.5
Confuse Coercive Persuasion AoE confuse   4.5
Controller ATO Will of the Controller Psionic damage 71.75 4
Controller ATO Superior Will of the Controller Psionic damage 107.1 5
Controller ATO Overpowering Presence Energy font   1
Controller ATO Superior Overpowering Presence Energy font   2
Corruptor ATO Malice of the Corruptor Negative energy damage 71.75 4
Corruptor ATO Superior Malice of the Corruptor Negative energy damage 107.1 5
Corruptor ATO Scourging Blast PBAoE heal/+End 5% heal, 5% +end 2
Corruptor ATO Superior Scourging Blast PBAoE heal/+End 7.5% heal, 7.5% +end 3
Def Debuff Touch of Lady Grey Negative energy damage 71.75 3.5
Def Debuff Achilles' Heel -Res -20% res,10 sec 3.5
Defender ATO Defender's Bastion PBAoE heal   4
Defender ATO Vigilant Assault PBAoE +Absorb   4
Defender ATO Superior Defender's Bastion PBAoE heal   5
Defender ATO Superior Vigilant Assault PBAoE +Absorb   5
Dominator ATO Ascendancy of the Dominator +Dam 14.19% +dam, stacks 3x 5
Dominator ATO Superior Ascendancy of the Dominator +Dam 21.25% +dam, stacks 3x 6
Dominator ATO Dominating Grasp Fiery orb   1
Dominator ATO Superior Dominating Grasp Fiery orb   2
EndMod Performance Shifter +End 10% +end 1.5
EndMod Energy Manipulator Stun Mag 2, 2 sec 2
EndMod Power Transfer Heal self 5% 3
Fear Glimpse of the Abyss Psionic damage 71.75 3.5
Fear Unspeakable Terror Stun Mag 1, 2 sec 3
Heal Preventive Medicine +Absorb   Every 5 sec (90 sec lockout)
Heal Panacea +HP/+End 7.5% +end/20% +regen, 120 sec 3
Hold Ghost Widow's Embrace Psionic damage 71.75 3.5
Hold Neuronic Shutdown Psionic damage (DoT) 71.75 3.5
Hold Unbreakable Constraint Smashing damage 107.1 4.5
Hold Basilisk's Gaze -Recharge -25% rech, 10 sec 3.5
Hold Lockdown +Mag 2 Mag 2, 2 sec 2.5
Hold Gladiator's Net Lethal damage 107.1 3.5
Hold Entomb +Absorb   2
Hold Superior Entomb +Absorb   3
Immobilize Trap of the Hunter Lethal damage 71.75 3.5
Immobilize Debilitative Action Stun Mag 2, 2 sec 3
Immobilize Gravitational Anchor Hold Mag 2, 2 sec 3.5
Kheld ATO Essence Transfer Global heal self 5% heal 12% (not PPM)
Kheld ATO Superior Essence Transfer Global heal self 6.5% heal 18% (not PPM)
Knockback Force Feedback +Recharge 100% +rech, 5 sec per target (10 sec lockout) 2
Knockback Explosive Strike Smashing damage 71.75 3.5
Melee Mako's Bite Lethal damage 71.75 3.5
Melee Hecatomb Negative energy damage 107.1 4.5
Melee Touch of Death Negative energy damage 71.75 3.5
Melee Gladiator's Strike Smashing damage 107.1 3.5
Melee Pounding Slugfest Stun Mag 2, 2 sec 2.5
Melee Kinetic Combat Knockdown Mag 0.67 3
Melee Blistering Cold Hold   3
Melee Superior Blistering Cold Hold   4
PBAoE Armageddon Fire damage 107.1 4.5
PBAoE Eradication Energy damage 75.75 3.5
PBAoE Scirocco's Dervish Lethal damage 71.75 3.5
PBAoE Obliteration Smashing damage 71.75 3.5
PBAoE Fury of the Gladiator -Res -20% res, 10 sec 3.5
PBAoE Avalanche Knockdown Mag 0.67 2.5
PBAoE Superior Avalanche Knockdown Mag 0.67 3.5
Pet Soulbound Allegiance Buildup 15% +tohit, 100% +dam, 10 sec (on pet) 3
Ranged Decimation Buildup See note 5 1
Ranged Entropic Chaos Heal self 5% heal 3
Ranged Apocalypse Negative energy damage 107.1 4.5
Ranged Gladiator's Javelin Toxic damage 107.1 3.5
Ranged Tempest -End -3.33% end 3.5
Ranged Devastation Hold Mag 2, 2 sec 3
Ranged Winter's Bite -Speed/-Recharge   4
Ranged Superior Winter's Bite -Speed/-Recharge   5
Scrapper ATO Critical Strikes +Crit chance +50%, 3.25 sec 2
Scrapper ATO Superior Critical Strikes +Crit chance +50%, 3.25 sec 3
Sentinel ATO Opportunity Strikes +Opportunity   1
Sentinel ATO Superior Opportunity Strikes +Opportunity   2
Sentinel ATO Sentinel's Ward +Absorb   5
Sentinel ATO Superior Sentinel's Ward +Absorb   6
Sleep Call of the Sandman Heal self 15% heal 3
Sleep Fortunata Hypnosis Placate 8 sec 4.5
Sleep Induced Coma -Recharge -20% for 20 sec 3.5
Slow Impeded Swiftness Smashing damage 71.75 3.5
Slow Pacing of the Turtle -Recharge -20% for 20 sec 3.5
Sniper Sting of the Manticore Toxic damage 71.75 3.5
Sniper Executioner's Contract Stun Mag 2, 2 sec 3.5
SoA ATO Dominion of Arachnos Debuff/mez 10% -dam, fear 4
SoA ATO Superior Dominion of Arachnos Debuff/mez 15% -dam, fear 5
SoA ATO Spider's Bite Global toxic damage 35.34 8% (not PPM)
SoA ATO Superior Spider's Bite Global toxic damage 53.54 12% (not PPM)
Stalker ATO Stalker's Guile Hide   4
Stalker ATO Superior Stalker's Guile Hide   5
Stalker ATO Assassin's Mark Global recharge Build Up   4% (not PPM)
Stalker ATO Superior Assassin's Mark Global recharge Build Up   5% (not PPM)
Stun Razzle Dazzle Immobilize Mag 2, 2 sec 3.5
Stun Stupefy Knockback Mag 6 3.5
Stun Absolute Amazement -Tohit -7.5% for 15 sec 4.5
Tanker ATO Might of the Tanker +Res 5%, stacks 3x 4
Tanker ATO Superior Might of the Tanker +Res 6.7%, stacks 3x 5
Tanker ATO Gauntleted Fist +Absorb   2
Tanker ATO Superior Gauntleted Fist +Absorb   3
TAoE Positron's Blast Energy damage 71.75 3.5
TAoE Javelin Volley Lethal damage 107.1 3.5
TAoE Ragnarok Knockdown Mag 0.67 3.5
TAoE Annihilation -Res   3
TAoE Bombardment Fire damage 71.75 3.5
Taunt Perfect Zinger Psionic damage 71.75 3.5
Taunt Triumphant Insult Stun Mag 1, 2 sec 2
Tohit Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control Buildup See note 5 1
Tohit Debuff Dark Watcher's Despair -Recharge -20% for 20 sec 3.5
Tohit Debuff Deflated Ego -Recovery -25% for 10.25 sec 3.5
Universal Damage Overwhelming Force Knockdown Mag 0.67 20% (not PPM)
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Starwave  Wolfhound  Actionette  Nightlight

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1 hour ago, skoryy said:

 

This is from the PPM spreadsheet, if it'll help:


 

 

Funny that, the procs that I have the least knowledge of how they function (the various ATOs) are the ones with the least info on that spreadsheet.

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IMO a lot of these procs would work better as Tier 2 set bonuses rather than one-slot wonders. That's where a lot of the difficulty with balancing are originating. If I had to commit two or three slots to get a proc result I'd think about slotting way differently. If the procs were in sets I wanted anyway, with defense and recharge, it would also mean I could more comfortably chase those things. Perhaps a couple of one-slot wonders isn't a bad idea, but like with the Hold category of sets, I think the whole class of IOs would be better balanced if you had to at least dual slot from a set to get the damage.

 

From a tech stand point I don't know if unlocking a proc as a set bonus works, but IMO its worth thinking about.

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9 hours ago, America's Angel said:

 

Already exists:
https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Set_Enhancements_with_Special_Effects

More up to date version, here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vd4ZZd1jfhOzdZZkGxC9O0NN5G0T1EdWPu_XRrV6s0U/edit

 

Does your asking this mean the dev team doesn't have any hard data that proves procs are overperforming?

 

Perfect, thank you and @skoryy for providing context! 

 

So, the goal with having these on the table is to get a feel for what "procs" if any are actually an issue, good or bad. What could be an issue is looking at certain categories where there are a plethora of certain options (Holds and Damage) while others are not as lucky (Fear). An other could be certain powers being able to stack up on a lot of damage procs in particular, another with how certain procs "feed" into other procs, and so on. 

 

In terms of the last question, we do and we don't at the same time. In the context of what was mentioned above, there are so many variables to look at when considering what exactly the "issue" is, that we must first figure out what if anything is wrong specifically else we would go in circles. If we decide "X" is a problem with procs, it can have wide-spread consequences that needs further changes to accommodate a variety of things that "relied on X", and so on. 

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2 minutes ago, Player-1 said:

 

Perfect, thank you and @skoryy for providing context! 

 

So, the goal with having these on the table is to get a feel for what "procs" if any are actually an issue, good or bad. What could be an issue is looking at certain categories where there are a plethora of certain options (Holds and Damage) while others are not as lucky (Fear). An other could be certain powers being able to stack up on a lot of damage procs in particular, another with how certain procs "feed" into other procs, and so on. 

 

In terms of the last question, we do and we don't at the same time. In the context of what was mentioned above, there are so many variables to look at when considering what exactly the "issue" is, that we must first figure out what if anything is wrong specifically else we would go in circles. If we decide "X" is a problem with procs, it can have wide-spread consequences that needs further changes to accommodate a variety of things that "relied on X", and so on. 

 

 

I appreciate the difficulty of the challenge you are in. 🙂

 

I would start with the Gaussian's Fire proc. I think that particular proc is a philosophical decision for the team. It was turned into a PPM proc around the time crashless nukes came on the scene. The way they play into each other may be resulting in that proc being much better than anticipated--a mostly reliable Build Up on top of Build Up you can chain into a crashless nuke. My eyeball estimate is that that one proc is adding about 30% damage to the opening nuke-follow-up-AoE salvo from blast characters. That multipled damage is then multiplied again because end game characters fight +3s and not +4s.

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4 hours ago, America's Angel said:

Spent this afternoon running a few more tests with this:

  

 

Had some interesting findings. Will share once the videos are uploaded. :classic_cool:

I’ve been anxiously waiting for the non softcapped times!

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2 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

Seems a tad demanding.

 

I took the post as a bit of advice to help the discussion because, at least from my perspective, I'm not nor have I ever been that interested in what procs the devs intend to look into but rather what ideas could be gleaned from other players' opinions and interactions with the various procs and slotting choices.  Some are so laser focused on being the individual to "solve" the "problem", they stifle discussion and don't look outside of their bubble.

Not really demanding.. 
This is done all the time work wise..  

What are the issues.. What are the blockers.. How can we break down the issue into smaller bits. What teams will handle what.. Sort of like Agile and Sprints.. ETC.. 

But with 22 pages of what I am pretty sure is somewhat repetitive and combative posting. This thread started off as someone posting that the Devs have issues with Procs..  
I asked where this was seen or told. But maybe this poster has some inside scoop.. 
Nonetheless it seems countless of players seem believe there is a proc issue thus 22 pages of god knows what at this point. 

Now a Devs jumps in that surely has some inside scoop. This might help narrow the focus of the topic. Maybe its not all the procs.. Maybe it is only 5 procs out of all the procs..  Maybe it is a combination of procs..  Maybe it is specific AT and builds that are an issue. 

Maybe then players might come up with some ideas that they might like.  Otherwise we are spinning wheels on Perfect Zinger Proc when the real issue is Javelin Volley Proc.

Again I don't see the issue here.. But I get it. I also don't know it all so this might be something I missed out on.   I only see certain primary and secondary's benefitting from doing these Procmonster builds. 

I also understand that some of these are a series of attacks or chain of attacks. On a full team no one gets to dump a chain of attacks off on a group of mobs.. 3 defense cap players can hold up an entire team if the others were just in SO enhancers..  Everyone after 3 is just EXTRA DPS..  Further on a team you have no clue who is wiping out the mobs.. Unless that person is steam rolling ahead and playing solo.  

We could be driving a good conversation, but it might be the wrong conversation we are having..  

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34 minutes ago, Player-1 said:

Does your asking this mean the dev team doesn't have any hard data that proves procs are overperforming?

 

34 minutes ago, Player-1 said:

 

Perfect, thank you and @skoryy for providing context! 

 

So, the goal with having these on the table is to get a feel for what "procs" if any are actually an issue, good or bad. What could be an issue is looking at certain categories where there are a plethora of certain options (Holds and Damage) while others are not as lucky (Fear). An other could be certain powers being able to stack up on a lot of damage procs in particular, another with how certain procs "feed" into other procs, and so on. 

 

In terms of the last question, we do and we don't at the same time. In the context of what was mentioned above, there are so many variables to look at when considering what exactly the "issue" is, that we must first figure out what if anything is wrong specifically else we would go in circles. If we decide "X" is a problem with procs, it can have wide-spread consequences that needs further changes to accommodate a variety of things that "relied on X", and so on. 

 

Well it is clear you are seeing some sort of DPS spike in the data and it is clear you are seeing what the builds are and of course that their are Procs within the build.

I also get if the player were solo doing this then it would be really clear but on a team with all these buffs it is hard to pin point was it a perfect storm or something else.

Couldn't the Devs recreate the build solo and then add components to see where the spike occurs ?
EG was it the Kin buffs. Was it the combo of Victory rush plus kin buffs.. ETC..

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3 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

This is from the PPM spreadsheet, if it'll help:

 

 

TYPE SET PROC AMOUNT PPM
Accurate Def Debuff Analyze Weakness +Tohit 20% +tohit, 10 sec 2
Accurate Def Debuff Shield Breaker Lethal damage 71.75 3.5
Accurate Healing Theft of Essence +End 10% +end 3.5
Accurate Healing Touch of the Nictus Negative energy damage 71.75 3.5
Accurate Tohit Debuff Siphon Insight +Tohit 20% +tohit, 10 sec 2
Accurate Tohit Debuff Cloud Senses Negative energy damage 71.75 3.5
Blaster ATO Blaster's Wrath Fire damage 71.75 4
Blaster ATO Superior Blaster's Wrath Fire damage 107.1 5
Blaster ATO Defiant Barrage Status protection 20% mez resist (all), 10.25 sec 3
Blaster ATO Superior Defiant Barrage Status protection 20% mez resist (all), 10.25 sec 4
Brute ATO Brute's Fury +Fury 5 4
Brute ATO Superior Brute's Fury +Fury 7 5
Brute ATO Unrelenting Fury +Regen/+End discount 15% +regen, 5% end discount, 10.25 sec 6
Brute ATO Superior Unrelenting Fury +Regen/+End discount 20% +regen, 6.65% end discount, 10.25 sec 7
Confuse Cacophony Energy damage 71.75 3.5
Confuse Malaise's Illusions Psionic damage 71.75 3.5
Confuse Coercive Persuasion AoE confuse   4.5
Controller ATO Will of the Controller Psionic damage 71.75 4
Controller ATO Superior Will of the Controller Psionic damage 107.1 5
Controller ATO Overpowering Presence Energy font   1
Controller ATO Superior Overpowering Presence Energy font   2
Corruptor ATO Malice of the Corruptor Negative energy damage 71.75 4
Corruptor ATO Superior Malice of the Corruptor Negative energy damage 107.1 5
Corruptor ATO Scourging Blast PBAoE heal/+End 5% heal, 5% +end 2
Corruptor ATO Superior Scourging Blast PBAoE heal/+End 7.5% heal, 7.5% +end 3
Def Debuff Touch of Lady Grey Negative energy damage 71.75 3.5
Def Debuff Achilles' Heel -Res -20% res,10 sec 3.5
Defender ATO Defender's Bastion PBAoE heal   4
Defender ATO Vigilant Assault PBAoE +Absorb   4
Defender ATO Superior Defender's Bastion PBAoE heal   5
Defender ATO Superior Vigilant Assault PBAoE +Absorb   5
Dominator ATO Ascendancy of the Dominator +Dam 14.19% +dam, stacks 3x 5
Dominator ATO Superior Ascendancy of the Dominator +Dam 21.25% +dam, stacks 3x 6
Dominator ATO Dominating Grasp Fiery orb   1
Dominator ATO Superior Dominating Grasp Fiery orb   2
EndMod Performance Shifter +End 10% +end 1.5
EndMod Energy Manipulator Stun Mag 2, 2 sec 2
EndMod Power Transfer Heal self 5% 3
Fear Glimpse of the Abyss Psionic damage 71.75 3.5
Fear Unspeakable Terror Stun Mag 1, 2 sec 3
Heal Preventive Medicine +Absorb   Every 5 sec (90 sec lockout)
Heal Panacea +HP/+End 7.5% +end/20% +regen, 120 sec 3
Hold Ghost Widow's Embrace Psionic damage 71.75 3.5
Hold Neuronic Shutdown Psionic damage (DoT) 71.75 3.5
Hold Unbreakable Constraint Smashing damage 107.1 4.5
Hold Basilisk's Gaze -Recharge -25% rech, 10 sec 3.5
Hold Lockdown +Mag 2 Mag 2, 2 sec 2.5
Hold Gladiator's Net Lethal damage 107.1 3.5
Hold Entomb +Absorb   2
Hold Superior Entomb +Absorb   3
Immobilize Trap of the Hunter Lethal damage 71.75 3.5
Immobilize Debilitative Action Stun Mag 2, 2 sec 3
Immobilize Gravitational Anchor Hold Mag 2, 2 sec 3.5
Kheld ATO Essence Transfer Global heal self 5% heal 12% (not PPM)
Kheld ATO Superior Essence Transfer Global heal self 6.5% heal 18% (not PPM)
Knockback Force Feedback +Recharge 100% +rech, 5 sec per target (10 sec lockout) 2
Knockback Explosive Strike Smashing damage 71.75 3.5
Melee Mako's Bite Lethal damage 71.75 3.5
Melee Hecatomb Negative energy damage 107.1 4.5
Melee Touch of Death Negative energy damage 71.75 3.5
Melee Gladiator's Strike Smashing damage 107.1 3.5
Melee Pounding Slugfest Stun Mag 2, 2 sec 2.5
Melee Kinetic Combat Knockdown Mag 0.67 3
Melee Blistering Cold Hold   3
Melee Superior Blistering Cold Hold   4
PBAoE Armageddon Fire damage 107.1 4.5
PBAoE Eradication Energy damage 75.75 3.5
PBAoE Scirocco's Dervish Lethal damage 71.75 3.5
PBAoE Obliteration Smashing damage 71.75 3.5
PBAoE Fury of the Gladiator -Res -20% res, 10 sec 3.5
PBAoE Avalanche Knockdown Mag 0.67 2.5
PBAoE Superior Avalanche Knockdown Mag 0.67 3.5
Pet Soulbound Allegiance Buildup 15% +tohit, 100% +dam, 10 sec (on pet) 3
Ranged Decimation Buildup See note 5 1
Ranged Entropic Chaos Heal self 5% heal 3
Ranged Apocalypse Negative energy damage 107.1 4.5
Ranged Gladiator's Javelin Toxic damage 107.1 3.5
Ranged Tempest -End -3.33% end 3.5
Ranged Devastation Hold Mag 2, 2 sec 3
Ranged Winter's Bite -Speed/-Recharge   4
Ranged Superior Winter's Bite -Speed/-Recharge   5
Scrapper ATO Critical Strikes +Crit chance +50%, 3.25 sec 2
Scrapper ATO Superior Critical Strikes +Crit chance +50%, 3.25 sec 3
Sentinel ATO Opportunity Strikes +Opportunity   1
Sentinel ATO Superior Opportunity Strikes +Opportunity   2
Sentinel ATO Sentinel's Ward +Absorb   5
Sentinel ATO Superior Sentinel's Ward +Absorb   6
Sleep Call of the Sandman Heal self 15% heal 3
Sleep Fortunata Hypnosis Placate 8 sec 4.5
Sleep Induced Coma -Recharge -20% for 20 sec 3.5
Slow Impeded Swiftness Smashing damage 71.75 3.5
Slow Pacing of the Turtle -Recharge -20% for 20 sec 3.5
Sniper Sting of the Manticore Toxic damage 71.75 3.5
Sniper Executioner's Contract Stun Mag 2, 2 sec 3.5
SoA ATO Dominion of Arachnos Debuff/mez 10% -dam, fear 4
SoA ATO Superior Dominion of Arachnos Debuff/mez 15% -dam, fear 5
SoA ATO Spider's Bite Global toxic damage 35.34 8% (not PPM)
SoA ATO Superior Spider's Bite Global toxic damage 53.54 12% (not PPM)
Stalker ATO Stalker's Guile Hide   4
Stalker ATO Superior Stalker's Guile Hide   5
Stalker ATO Assassin's Mark Global recharge Build Up   4% (not PPM)
Stalker ATO Superior Assassin's Mark Global recharge Build Up   5% (not PPM)
Stun Razzle Dazzle Immobilize Mag 2, 2 sec 3.5
Stun Stupefy Knockback Mag 6 3.5
Stun Absolute Amazement -Tohit -7.5% for 15 sec 4.5
Tanker ATO Might of the Tanker +Res 5%, stacks 3x 4
Tanker ATO Superior Might of the Tanker +Res 6.7%, stacks 3x 5
Tanker ATO Gauntleted Fist +Absorb   2
Tanker ATO Superior Gauntleted Fist +Absorb   3
TAoE Positron's Blast Energy damage 71.75 3.5
TAoE Javelin Volley Lethal damage 107.1 3.5
TAoE Ragnarok Knockdown Mag 0.67 3.5
TAoE Annihilation -Res   3
TAoE Bombardment Fire damage 71.75 3.5
Taunt Perfect Zinger Psionic damage 71.75 3.5
Taunt Triumphant Insult Stun Mag 1, 2 sec 2
Tohit Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control Buildup See note 5 1
Tohit Debuff Dark Watcher's Despair -Recharge -20% for 20 sec 3.5
Tohit Debuff Deflated Ego -Recovery -25% for 10.25 sec 3.5
Universal Damage Overwhelming Force Knockdown Mag 0.67 20% (not PPM)

 

I didn't even realize there were this many procs in the game! (the fact that there are means the IO system is much more interesting than I even first thought) WOW 😮 

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You'd want to cross reference this with any changes made by the Homecoming team, but the version of procs and set bonuses as they existed as of Issue 24 is publicly available. It can help you better understand exactly what is happening with these abilities, such the as the cooldown period, size of the sphere if they have one, etc. Procs and Set Bonuses follow the same design structure as each other, which is also the same structure as Powers and Inspirations.

 

I attached the most up to date public version to this post. Exact numbers may vary from Homecoming, but I don't recall Homecoming making too many significant changes other than adding some new items to the list.

 

Set_Bonus_Set_Bonus.powers

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It's really about all of the variables the devs need to take into context rather than a specific individual proc and certain powers abusing them like you say @Player-1.  

 

Like, my doms ST hold sees very little value in proc'ing that based just on the recharge and since some AT's have little room to spare slots I use my ST hold for my bonus building.  But then I put a set of 5 of the purple hold set with the proc plus the pvp proc into my aoe hold since the recharge on that means it will fire a lot of procs quite well so it helps contribute well to aoe damage.

 

On that same token on my tank's proc build I have Char that has a base 30s recharge which I have the ranged purple and pvp procs, hold purple and pvp proc, decimation proc and a 50+5 accuracy IO.  My tank can spare all of these slots that my dom would use to build for bonuses since my tank performs the survivability function quite well by just taking their defense powers.  And I can easily affect my global recharge to increase how many Char's I can blast out.  

 

In most areas I don't find procs to be too abusive except in some instances but trying to coral those instances with sweeping changes is what everyone here is hoping to avoid, no matter if you're on the side of the fence of procs are really overperforming or the side that wants things to stay as they are.  

 

I'm hoping there's an interesting approach underway in regards to procs that may end up offering more variety while toning down the aoe carnage a little bit.  All in all I do not envy your position.  😝

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5 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

 

I didn't even realize there were this many procs in the game! (the fact that there are means the IO system is much more interesting than I even first thought) WOW 😮 

 

This right here is why I had asked earlier 😉

 

On the whole, a goal is definitely to allow for variety with the IO system as that is a very fun part of the game. If there is something that is messing with that goal then it will be on our radar. 

 

Something that has had a little bit of focus here are the "bad" procs. The Tempest: Chance of End Drain one was brought up a few times as something that would go against the goal above as its poor performance in relation to other options effectively takes it away as a choice instead of adding to the variety of fun options. Looking at it this way, do you ever find yourselves as players going after certain procs (damage, etc) more due to other options not being as attractive rather than the ones you choose being good?

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11 minutes ago, Player-1 said:

 

This right here is why I had asked earlier 😉

 

On the whole, a goal is definitely to allow for variety with the IO system as that is a very fun part of the game. If there is something that is messing with that goal then it will be on our radar. 

 

Something that has had a little bit of focus here are the "bad" procs. The Tempest: Chance of End Drain one was brought up a few times as something that would go against the goal above as its poor performance in relation to other options effectively takes it away as a choice instead of adding to the variety of fun options. Looking at it this way, do you ever find yourselves as players going after certain procs (damage, etc) more due to other options not being as attractive rather than the ones you choose being good?

Exactly this. 

 

I have said before, what else am I going to reasonably do? Too often loading up damage procs is all that’s left as an option.

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6 minutes ago, Player-1 said:

Looking at it this way, do you ever find yourselves as players going after certain procs (damage, etc) more due to other options not being as attractive rather than the ones you choose being good?

 

On my blaster, my decisions will generally be towards whatever will get more more damage and sustainability.  This is also how I went building on my controller, mainly as there aren't many better options when you're illusions / sonic.  Checking her build, I notice both the Controller ATO and purple hold procs are both damage!  To get a boost to her hold mag would require the Lockdown proc and either losing the Controller damage proc and 6-piece defense boost in Blind or the Achilles proc in Liquefy.  Now that I think on it, I might swap out the Achilles since 10 secs of -res every 75 secs might not be as useful as an initial lockdown on illusionists and sappers.  🤔

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6 hours ago, Player-1 said:

 

Perfect, thank you and @skoryy for providing context! 

 

So, the goal with having these on the table is to get a feel for what "procs" if any are actually an issue, good or bad. What could be an issue is looking at certain categories where there are a plethora of certain options (Holds and Damage) while others are not as lucky (Fear). An other could be certain powers being able to stack up on a lot of damage procs in particular, another with how certain procs "feed" into other procs, and so on. 

 

In terms of the last question, we do and we don't at the same time. In the context of what was mentioned above, there are so many variables to look at when considering what exactly the "issue" is, that we must first figure out what if anything is wrong specifically else we would go in circles. If we decide "X" is a problem with procs, it can have wide-spread consequences that needs further changes to accommodate a variety of things that "relied on X", and so on. 

 

No probs. Happy to answer any proc-related questions y'all might have. I've done a lot of testing with them.

 

And yeah I completely agree. I said back on Page 2 of this thread that the first step should be identifying if there was a problem at all. I think that's a better approach than presupposing there is a problem...and then to go looking for proof. It's important to identify, specifically, what the situation is, before we start trying to come up with changes. Otherwise we just end up with solutions in search of problems. (c.f. the majority of posts in this thread.)

 

I'm in the process of uploading a few videos I've put together that showcase a range of different builds (procc'd out, softcapped, aoe procs only, etc)  vs +4/8 content. Will tag you in the thread once youtube decides to stop stealing my life finishes uploading them. Hopefully it'll open the floodgates for other players to do the same.

 

6 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

I’ve been anxiously waiting for the non softcapped times!

 

:classic_biggrin:

 

32 minutes ago, Player-1 said:

 

This right here is why I had asked earlier 😉

 

On the whole, a goal is definitely to allow for variety with the IO system as that is a very fun part of the game. If there is something that is messing with that goal then it will be on our radar. 

 

Something that has had a little bit of focus here are the "bad" procs. The Tempest: Chance of End Drain one was brought up a few times as something that would go against the goal above as its poor performance in relation to other options effectively takes it away as a choice instead of adding to the variety of fun options. Looking at it this way, do you ever find yourselves as players going after certain procs (damage, etc) more due to other options not being as attractive rather than the ones you choose being good?

 

Tempest is only bad in PvE, because end drain doesn't matter in PvE. In PvP, it's pretty good. :classic_biggrin:

 

You'll find this with a bunch of procs, actually. Some of them are extremely useful in PvP, and allow for extremely diverse PvP builds, but otherwise useless in PvE because all that matters in PvE is damage.

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10 hours ago, America's Angel said:

Some of them are extremely useful in PvP, and allow for extremely diverse PvP builds, but otherwise useless in PvE because all that matters in PvE is damage.

Glad to see you finally admit there is a problem! 😁

 

Also, if we are being honest here, endurance drain is very niche in PvP, most builds are loading up on damage. I double checked dozens of PvP builds to confirm this. Damage procs are king there too (with regards to attacks).

 

The only time I’ve seen Tempest as somewhat useful is if you are doubling down on endurance drain on an elec toon of some kind, most likely a Defender/Corruptor/Controller/Sentinel. Pair it with preemptive interface, and some heavy endurance mod and you have a decent sapper, even in PvE. The problem is that it usually takes a ton of commitment to accomplish and you end up losing out on damage and damage is king. Your team has usually mopped the floor with the enemy before you can sap them. For Tempest to be more useful it’s effects would need to me on par with damage procs in speed, IMO.

 

I can appreciate your not wanting to mess up PvP, that seems to be one of your favorite way to play the game, and you are fighting valiantly to keep things the way they are with regards to procs. But you have to acknowledge that "damage is king" is the problem. And it is the problem in PvP too, maybe less so than PvE but still it is king. PvP builds are definitely more interesting than PvE builds, I will give you that. But THAT is the problem, PvE doesn't really have the same build diversity as PvP. It has the illusion of build diversity. Outside of a few niche builds that only work on a few powersets, most players build for a couple damage procs or -res procs per attack (depending on the powerset). Why? Because overall that is the ideal way to build your toon to be competitive in both solo and team play. I would like to see more proc options that make the player really think about what they want to do. More -regen, -recharge, -HP, -tohit, etc that can be added to certain attacks. While that wont fix everyone's obsession with clear speed, if you do it right, you can create that true build diversity that everyone here seems to care so much about.

 

I think we can agree that maybe a flat nerf to damage procs isn't the answer. But right now, say you are a corruptor, if you have the option to add about 40 DPA (with a damage proc) to an attack or a 5% self heal, c'mon. Most people are going to take that 40 DPA. HOWEVER, if you make the decision more like 40 DPA or 15% self heal (just an example not saying it should be 15%) well now that decision is a little more interesting. Or what about 40 DPA vs -50% regen for 15 seconds? May not be as great against minions/leuts/bosses but against AV's and GM's that would be interesting! Especially if it stacked with other powers and you build around it. Those are the kinds of decisions I would like to see players make, instead of  90% of the time: "more damage = more better!" 

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3 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

Glad to see you finally admit there is a problem! 😁

 

Also, if we are being honest here, endurance drain is very niche in PvP, most builds are loading up on damage. I double checked dozens of PvP builds to confirm this. Damage procs are king there too (with regards to attacks).

 

The only time I’ve seen Tempest as somewhat useful is if you are doubling down on endurance drain on an elec toon of some kind, most likely a Defender/Corruptor/Controller/Sentinel. Pair it with preemptive interface, and some heavy endurance mod and you have a decent sapper, even in PvE. The problem is that it usually takes a ton of commitment to accomplish and you end up losing out on damage and damage is king. Your team has usually mopped the floor with the enemy before you can sap them. For Tempest to be more useful it’s effects would need to me on par with damage procs in speed, IMO.

 

I can appreciate your not wanting to mess up PvP, that seems to be one of your favorite way to play the game, and you are fighting valiantly to keep things the way they are with regards to procs. But you have to acknowledge that "damage is king" is the problem. And it is the problem in PvP too, maybe less so than PvE but still it is king. PvP builds are definitely more interesting than PvE builds, I will give you that. But THAT is the problem, PvE doesn't really have the same build diversity as PvP. It has the illusion of build diversity. Outside of a few niche builds that only work on a few powersets, most players build for a couple damage procs or -res procs per attack (depending on the powerset). Why? Because overall that is the ideal way to build your toon to be competitive in both solo and team play. I would like to see more proc options that make the player really think about what they want to do. More -regen, -recharge, -HP, -tohit, etc that can be added to certain attacks. While that wont fix everyone's obsession with clear speed, if you do it right, you can create that true build diversity that everyone here seems to care so much about.

 

I think we can agree that maybe a flat nerf to damage procs isn't the answer. But right now, say you are a corruptor, if you have the option to add about 40 DPA (with a damage proc) to an attack or a 5% self heal, c'mon. Most people are going to take that 40 DPA. HOWEVER, if you make the decision more like 40 DPA or 15% self heal (just an example not saying it should be 15%) well now that decision is a little more interesting. Or what about 40 DPA vs -50% regen for 15 seconds? May not be as great against minions/leuts/bosses but against AV's and GM's that would be interesting! Especially if it stacked with other powers and you build around it. Those are the kinds of decisions I would like to see players make, instead of  90% of the time: "more damage = more better!" 

 

I've yet to encounter any evidence that procs are a balance problem in PvE or PvP. Feel free to link me to any numbers you have on this. I'm always happy to look at data. I agree with you that nerfing procs is a bad idea. I also agree that adding more procs to increase the diversity of builds is a good idea. (I've actually advocated for exactly this on the testing discord plenty of times.)

 

With that said, none of these extra procs would stop damage being king in CoH. That's just how the game is, and always will be. And tbh, damage being king is not so much a "problem" with CoH as much as it is a cornerstone. It's pretty much been the status quo ever since the game launched. I remember Synapse mentioning this way back on the old forums back when the game was live. Specifically, that a lot of the non-damage stuff players do is just smoke and mirrors to make the game seem more complex than it actually is. A lot of the issues the OG devs had was trying to find ways to make things like -recharge -end -recovery -accuracy -tohit, and other such debuffs/buffs actually matter vs mobs. They never really did. (Especially post IO set bonuses).

 

Damage being king is more pronounced in PvE. In PvE the enemies we fight are just bags of HP. So the only things that actually matter are damage, -res (which is just an indirect damage buff), -hp (which is a ghetto attack) and to a lesser extent things like -regen.  PvP enemies on the other hand are players. They're more than just bags of HP. Their end matters. Their recharge matters. Their accuracy matters. Half the debuffs that do nothing in PvE actually do stuff in PvP. Hell, healing matters in PvP because enemies do spike damage and defense is mostly useless. What the game desperately needs is enemy encounters where a lot of these forgotten mechanics actually play a role. Enemies that spike individual members of a team, that heal their team-mates the second they start taking damage, that evade, that have higher accuracy than normal mobs so that -tohit matters, that have OP powers on really low recharges so that slows matter, that have higher defense than normal to counter our reliance on set bonuses for accuracy, etc.

 

More complex enemies are what this game needs in order to create more diverse gameplay. (And luckily for us, that's what Cobalt, Piecemeal, and the other content devs seem to be focusing on right now.) What the game does not need is easy-to-implement-nerfs, justified by anecdotes and forum hysteria, that makes killing +4/8 trash mobs slightly slower, but otherwise no more difficult than before.

 

So yeah, if you think the problem is "damage is king", the only solution is to make another game. However, if you think we should add more (non-damage) procs then yeah, totally with you.

Edited by America's Angel
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2 hours ago, America's Angel said:

 

I've yet to encounter any evidence that procs are a balance problem in PvE or PvP. Feel free to link me to any numbers you have on this. I'm always happy to look at data. I agree with you that nerfing procs is a bad idea. I also agree that adding more procs to increase the diversity of builds is a good idea. (I've actually advocated for exactly this on the testing discord plenty of times.)

 

With that said, none of these extra procs would stop damage being king in CoH. That's just how the game is, and always will be. And tbh, damage being king is not so much a "problem" with CoH as much as it is a cornerstone. It's pretty much been the status quo ever since the game launched. I remember Synapse mentioning this way back on the old forums back when the game was live. Specifically, that a lot of the non-damage stuff players do is just smoke and mirrors to make the game seem more complex than it actually is. A lot of the issues the OG devs had was trying to find ways to make things like -recharge -end -recovery -accuracy -tohit, and other such debuffs/buffs actually matter vs mobs. They never really did. (Especially post IO set bonuses).

 

Damage being king is more pronounced in PvE. In PvE the enemies we fight are just bags of HP. So the only things that actually matter are damage, -res (which is just an indirect damage buff), -hp (which is a ghetto attack) and to a lesser extent things like -regen.  PvP enemies on the other hand are players. They're more than just bags of HP. Their end matters. Their recharge matters. Their accuracy matters. Half the debuffs that do nothing in PvE actually do stuff in PvP. Hell, healing matters in PvP because enemies do spike damage and defense is mostly useless. What the game desperately needs is enemy encounters where a lot of these forgotten mechanics actually play a role. Enemies that spike individual members of a team, that heal their team-mates the second they start taking damage, that evade, that have higher accuracy than normal mobs so that -tohit matters, that have OP powers on really low recharges so that slows matter, that have higher defense than normal to counter our reliance on set bonuses for accuracy, etc.

 

More complex enemies is what this game needs in order to create more diverse gameplay. (And luckily for us, that's what Cobalt, Piecemeal, and the other content devs seem to be focusing on right now.) What the game does not need is easy-to-implement-nerfs, justified by anecdotes and forum hysteria, that makes killing +4/8 trash mobs slightly slower, but otherwise no more difficult than before.

 

So yeah, if you think the problem is "damage is king", the only solution is to make another game. However, if you think we should add more (non-damage) procs then yeah, totally with you.

The entire point of PvP and PvE is to kill bags of HP. Those dynamics don’t change just because one is vs NPC and one is vs PC. -recharge means nothing in PvP if you can’t actually kill your target. That is why damage is king. What I was referring to was that because damage is king we have an over abundance of builds whose only concern is doing more damage. My suggestion wouldn’t necessarily change that BUT it could change the WAY you get there. My suggestion isn't that damage shouldn't be king, but more that because damage is king, that is why people are perceiving damage procs the way that they are. If you had other equally potent alternatives, damage procs would seem less potent in comparison. 


-tohit, -regen, -recharge, does matter in PvE. It does affect the outcome of a fight. But because there aren’t really viable/potent proc options for those effects, damage procs are used. My argument isn’t that damage procs wouldn’t be used, it is that if their are viable and equally potent alternatives, maybe they would be used a little less.

 

EDIT: And, to be fair not every effect is treated equally. -recharge doesn't help with Alpha in any way, it just helps in the longer run. If your target is able to two or three shot you, -recharge doesn't matter at all. I learned this lesson a long time ago with a psi/rad corruptor in PvP, 🤣. However, if your target is able to two or three shot you, -tohit could certainly help a lot (especially in PvE). 

 

EDIT: Also, as far as adding more complex enemy groups and gameplay I have said this 1000000000 times. I would love to see this.

 

Ultimately, I feel like we are making the same point while disagreeing slightly on the details of those points, haha. So at least we have that! 

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

More complex enemies are what this game needs in order to create more diverse gameplay

Enemies and missions too please (puzzles, something unique besides kill all or escort please).  so 100% agree with this course.

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PvP needs to sort its own self out, whatever happens with procs happens and they can fix whatever for PvP after. 

 

A blaster or defender being able to load up on all those damage procs in their hold which detonate with much more frequency than on an actual control character devalues the actual control character if the mez system is going to remain as it is.  

 

Revert the mez system to what it was and see how fun things get.  Dominators in domination were an I win button pretty much back before i13.  If we're going to devalue mez, then damage, buff/debuffing and survivability should have no problem with their value being weighed on the table just as well.   

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18 hours ago, Player-1 said:

Looking at it this way, do you ever find yourselves as players going after certain procs (damage, etc) more due to other options not being as attractive rather than the ones you choose being good?

 

 

I would go a step further and say I do not take certain powers specifically because the sets or IOs they can host do not contribute to the overall build. In general, the following types of powers tend to be unattractive:

  • Anything that takes no sets at all (obviously)
  • Most Slow powers
  • Most Healing powers
  • Most Sleep powers 

 

Examples of likely-to-skip powers for me derived from this rule: Mind Control's Telekinesis, Ice Control's Shiver, Storm and Cold Dom's Snow Storm, most Sleep powers in general. Poison's Neurotoxic Breath, Trick Arrow's Glue Arrow (this last one being a bit more attractive than the rest). It is not that slow is necessarily a poor ability, just that it's not something you'd likely ever slot for.

 

An example of a power I would skip if I could, but really can't, is Ice Slick. It takes no sets at all. So I take it and privately resent that Bonfire not only does better knockdown (and is available in a Blaster app), it also can slot the chance for +100% Recharge proc.

 

 

Powers that tend to be much more attractive than others tend have these profiles:

  • Takes Defense sets (these rule over almost anything else due to Luck of the Gambler existing, along with the other various one slot wonders)
  • Affects enemies and has a base Recharge around 18-30 seconds, close to the sweet spot for 3.5 PPM powers
    • Especially if it: takes Hold sets, -ToHit sets, -Defense, or Damage sets
    • And even more especially if it has an animation at or below 1.5 seconds
    • APP powers and support set powers are usually the first place to go looking for powers with these profiles. They often have longer Recharge, intended originally as penalties. However in a PPM system that longer recharge translates to an advantage by making the proc more likely to fire.

 

You also, specifically, want at least one power in your build that takes Resistance sets. This is such a strong rule that it if there were a ten commandments of IO builds it would be the first or second item on the tablet. 

 

For an example of a near-miss power that would be very desirable but isn't because of a twist of fate with slottable sets, Poison's Neurotoxic Breath is a cone power that Holds. However the Hold is unenhanceable. If not for that fact I'd be proccing it out with 6 damage procs and it would outstrip many actual blast powers in damage. 

 

I mentioned before that Stun is less attractive than Hold, but in context of AoE powers that's probably a good thing. Stun AoEs tend to be on much friendlier recharges than Holds. Armed with a Chance for +2 Mag Stun, I could reliably stun bosses with Dark Blast, Storm, Super Strength, or any other set that provides a base Mag 2 stun. Hand Clap for example recharges in 30 seconds, while Dominator/Controller Flashfire recharges in 90. With that proc, any melee character with Hand Clap would stun every enemy in range every ~8 seconds. So that's why I am urgining caution on that particular front. Mezz magnitude is as much of a balance equation as Damage, Defense, or Resistance.

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5 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I mentioned before that Stun is less attractive than Hold, but in context of AoE powers that's probably a good thing. Stun AoEs tend to be on much friendlier recharges than Holds. Armed with a Chance for +2 Mag Stun, I could reliably stun bosses with Dark Blast, Storm, Super Strength, or any other set that provides a base Mag 2 stun. Hand Clap for example recharges in 30 seconds, while Dominator/Controller Flashfire recharges in 90. With that proc, any melee character with Hand Clap would stun every enemy in range every ~8 seconds. So that's why I am urgining caution on that particular front. Mezz magnitude is as much of a balance equation as Damage, Defense, or Resistance.

 

A 3.5 PPM proc that's slotted in a 30 second recharge (no local recharge) 15 foot radius sphere has a 65% proc rate.  It wouldn't stun everyone.  Still possibly too powerful, but not like you'd do mag 4 to 90% of your targets.

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