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16 minutes ago, Pzn said:

All the old dogs in this thread screaming that we should nerf new tricks.  It's ok to be outperformed in a single metric by people who min/max for it.  Giving up set bonuses to increase the damage output of a power is a tradeoff that increase build diversity.  Not something you are required to do.

 

 

Don't get it twisted, I use and abuse procs too.  I just think it's a bit wonky when you compare Lightning Rod either with standard slotting or proc'ed with Savage Leap built with procs and there is no real way to bring them closer in performance whatsoever.

 

1 minute ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

I know this is true, but my search fu is weak.  Is there any "official" dev statement that identifies *what* they think the problem with procs is?  Even if that problem is as simple as "we don't like 'em!"?  I think that would help people brainstorm possible solutions that directly address the stated problem.

 

 

My initial response was, "You're a monster!"  But on further review, why not make *every* proc unique?

 

You'd have to add another IO to all those sets so you can still get the #6 (or what have you) bonus.

 

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1 hour ago, BZRKR said:

What does HPS mean? Health Per Second? Or is it just Hit PointS?

 

Heals Per Second. It's a catch-all term that encompasses heals, regen, res, def, and absorb. It essentially lets you convert the entire mitigation of a character into a single value.

 

For example:

30% energy res would be 150HPS vs  incoming damage of 500DPS.

A heal that does 1000HP every 50s would be 20HPS.

 

Stuff like that.

 

36 minutes ago, arcane said:

We already know the HC devs are looking at procs. This thread is not a call to nerf. It is a discussion hoping to influence the nature of an already inevitable nerf.

 

Calling it a "nerf" is a bit presumptuous. All we know so far is that:

  1. Powerhouse doesn't believe procs can really be considered procs if their chance to fire is near-guaranteed (90%) every time.
  2. Powerhouse doesn't like that AoE attacks essentially guarantee self-buff procs to fire.
  3. Powerhouse doesn't like that some AoE powers are proc bombs.

As you can see, his concerns aren't balance concerns, they're more game design concerns. (I.e. "Procs aren't supposed to do this!" rather than "Procs are OP!") Because of this, most of the suggestions in this thread don't address Powerhouse's concerns. (Which is why I posted what I did, above. To encourage those who ARE looking to nerf procs for balance reasons to do some legwork to justify their suggestions.)

 

Now, with regards to Powerhouse's concerns, above:

 

#1 is solved by renaming procs to something else, or by changing their behavior. I.e. In the case of damage procs - they would go from doing (for example) 90% chance of 71.75 damage to doing 100% chance of doing 64.575 damage. (It would be the amount of damage they do that varies, rather than the % chance to fire.)

 

#2 is solved by having self-buffing Procs in AoEs only trigger against a single target. (Easier said than done, I imagine.)

 

#3 is solved by changing the internal recharge value of some AoE powers so that they proc much much less, but otherwise still perform the same in PvE. Now, to be clear, this would be a very short list of AoE powers, with Burn at the top of it. It would be a rebalancing of a few, select, overperforming AoE powers. It would absolutely not be a global proc nerf or "procpocalypse" that impacted every AoE power in the game. Nerfing the proc rate of every AoE power would be a huge overstep.

 

To my knowledge there has been no mention of ST damage procs or debuff procs being looked at. So any comment on ST procs doing "too much damage" is just forum hearsay and should be treated as such.

Edited by America's Angel
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29 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

My initial response was, "You're a monster!"  But on further review, why not make *every* proc unique?

As someone else already stated, this would prevent six slotting many basic sets in the melee and ranged damage attack sets and that would impact non-proc-monster builds more.

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1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

My initial response was, "You're a monster!"  But on further review, why not make *every* proc unique?

 

Most of my crew, with their little collections of -Res procs and Perf Shifters, would have a sad.

Not to mention the Peacebringer, whose team-mates only let him play with them because his KB powers all have Suddens slotted. 😝

 

(ETA: Although, the Sudden Acc KB-to-KD... Is that one more of a Special or an actual proc? I know the Overwhelming is a proc, since it'll add KD to powers that don't normally have it... But I can't for the life of me remember rather or not the Sudden does the same. I want to say it doesn't... but, yeah. I can't remember for sure and I'm too lazy to go look. XD)

 

 

Edited by Coyotedancer
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16 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

As for a lot of your other suggestions, altering the balance of IO bonuses outside of procs isn't the purpose of this thread.  Not putting it off the table, just saying it's going off topic

You missed the point

 

It's to limit your ability to be stronger.  Just like you think procs should be limited per power, I was suggesting further limited to the entire character.  The example of LoTG global recharge, OP In comparison to the +5 global resit or +3% defense x 2 = 6% (easier to build for typed vs positional def).  37.5% recharge global trumps 6 damage procs in a long recharge power.  37.5% affects the recharge of every power primary/secondary/power pool/Epic.  6 damage procs work in only 1 attack, per attack and having multiple powers packed with procs is a big issue.  My suggestion is just limit entirely everything to 1, oh and I forgot that all IO are all 5 bonus with procs/special IO treated as universal unique which grants the 6th bonus regardless of set: crushing impact plus force feed back recharge  grants the crushing 6th bonus 2.5% psi resist.

 

In the end, the optional slot becomes mandated that all the special IO are limited to the point you probably could not slot more than 8 for the entire character.

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52 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

Most of my crew, with their little collections of -Res procs and Perf Shifters, would have a sad.

Not to mention the Peacebringer, whose team-mates only let him play with them because his KB powers all have Suddens slotted. 😝

 

(ETA: Although, the Sudden Acc KB-to-KD... Is that one more of a Special or an actual proc? I know the Overwhelming is a proc, since it'll add KD to powers that don't normally have it... But I can't for the life of me remember rather or not the Sudden does the same. I want to say it doesn't... but, yeah. I can't remember for sure and I'm too lazy to go look. XD)

 

 

 

You either remember correctly or we both don't, lol! Sudden Acceleration only converts KB to KD. It does not add a chance to KB. Possibly why it is not unique?

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3 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

In the end, the optional slot becomes mandated that all the special IO are limited to the point you probably could not slot more than 8 for the entire character.

 

I'm not sure if you are being hyperbolic, presenting a slippery slope argument, or honestly thinking that those would be good changes (all of your changes, I just quoted a small part).  I mean no aspersion, I really can't tell your angle and all three are fair positions to debate.  But however you meant them, I disagree.  That would ruin every single IO build and require thousands and thousands of respecs across the player base.  If you think the forums got ugly over the Teleport and /enterfrombasepasscode changes, just wait to see that boosted by several orders of magnitude.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, archgemini24 said:

 

You either remember correctly or we both don't, lol! Sudden Acceleration only converts KB to KD. It does not add a chance to KB. Possibly why it is not unique?

It was specifically designed to be non-unique because Overwhelming Force KB-KD was unique and players wanted to convert multiple attacks to KD.  A suggestion had been made to have one universal IO convert all player KB attacks to KD, but the HC devs felt that a non-unique proc added more granularity to pick and choose your powers with or without KB and also gave players a choice between getting 5 or 6 slot set bonuses or slotting the KB-KD proc.

 

It doesn't also add KD because it's in a knockdown set and would have the unfortunate likelihood of stacking the KD effect with the power's KD and still causing KB, but not consistently.  Many KB powers that slot OF have that problem now.  And finally, there are several other +KD procs.

Edited by Bionic_Flea
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3 hours ago, America's Angel said:

Calling it a "nerf" is a bit presumptuous. All we know so far is that:

  1. Powerhouse doesn't believe procs can really be considered procs if their chance to fire is near-guaranteed (90%) every time.
  2. Powerhouse doesn't like that AoE attacks essentially guarantee self-buff procs to fire.
  3. Powerhouse doesn't like that some AoE powers are proc bombs.

 

Fair. I thought perhaps “rework” was a better word after the fact. 
 

Anyway I agree with the three items above and would only like to add one additional question: is it really considered “working as intended” that low damage APP/PPP powers can cross the line at which they become stronger than primary/secondary attacks? I don’t know and am genuinely asking Powerhouse here. In addition to AoE proc bombs, obviously Char and Dominate are primary culprits here.

 

The specific problem is that APP’s/PPP’s have increased recharges because they are supposed to be weaker. But PPM means they really aren’t. 

Edited by arcane
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I’m in the camp that doesn’t think we have the problem fully defined, and therefore not going to try and make suggestions. I saw some points earlier about specific thoughts Capt. Powerhouse has, but those seem easily addressed without sweeping changes to the ppm mechanic as currently written. 
 
if the problem is proc bombing some attacks, there’s a fix but I’m not sure there’s really an issue there .

 

if the problem is buff procs are too easily obtained through aoe, there’s a fix but it’s not the same as fixing proc bombs. 
 

if the issue is low recharge attacks have really poor proc rates, there’s a fix but it’s not the same as either of the above. 
 

define the problem, hypothesize solutions,

test a solution, then act. The problem here seems to be painted with too wide a brush. 

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1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

That would ruin every single IO build and require thousands and thousands of respecs across the player base.

Ding! You got it, it basically ruins builds.  Might as well smash it down with IO set bonuses in the process, destroy all builds and reduce their effectiveness

 

I got 2 points of view when it comes to IO slotting, what someone slots doesn't do a damn thing to you or I personally nor should you or I care what they slot.  If it bothers you, either leave the group or solo.  I I don't see how someone who slots their Electric Blaster with an assianine amount of Tempest : End Drain, Entropic Chaos Heal, Devastation : Hold, Energy Manipulator : Stun,  Power Transfer : Heal, and Performance : +End.  Is it optimal?  No.  Does it affect me?  Not really. 

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53 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

Ding! You got it, it basically ruins builds.  Might as well smash it down with IO set bonuses in the process, destroy all builds and reduce their effectiveness

 

I got 2 points of view when it comes to IO slotting, what someone slots doesn't do a damn thing to you or I personally nor should you or I care what they slot.  If it bothers you, either leave the group or solo.  I I don't see how someone who slots their Electric Blaster with an assianine amount of Tempest : End Drain, Entropic Chaos Heal, Devastation : Hold, Energy Manipulator : Stun,  Power Transfer : Heal, and Performance : +End.  Is it optimal?  No.  Does it affect me?  Not really. 

 

Sure.

 

But if ever a change comes in that messes up your build, I want you to keep the same mentality you wrote up there and roll with it.

 

That being said, I still feel my 2nd proposition could assist in not only limiting some of the excesses of procs but also open up old build strategies that were nerfed with the new system (although to a limited capacity).

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1 hour ago, Outrider_01 said:

I got 2 points of view when it comes to IO slotting, what someone slots doesn't do a damn thing to you or I personally nor should you or I care what they slot.  If it bothers you, either leave the group or solo.

 

So it was a hyperbolic slippery slope.  Good to know your opinion.  I still disagree.  Changes are constantly made to this game -- from the day it started until now.  Some are additions, some are buffs, some are nerfs, some are all of the above depending on individual perspective.  But whether you like it or not, changes are going to come.

 

 

 

 

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I love the current proc system. Going further, I love the current balance point, which is that the heavier you go into procs, the more tradeoffs are needed to shore up weaknesses in the build. You definitely give up more in accuracy, defense, endurance, recharge for that extra damage. With damage being king the effective ratio feels just about right.

 

I loathe many of the suggestions made so far. Limiting the number of procs in a power, for example, only removes build versatility. Proc builds require exponentially more thinking than 5-6 set pieces per power builds, at least for me, and that's great fun.

 

Stop local recharge from affecting proc rate and call it a day. This would change nothing for proc builds, who already avoid local recharge and use global recharge. While more traditional builds would see a boost in proc power. Thus evening the damage gap, and making proc builds even more of an extreme tradeoff with relatively smaller benefits.

 

Another suggestion that could make sense would be to tie proc damage to AT scalar, but honestly this would be a bad idea. The game is too damage-oriented as is, and procs at least offer a stopgap solution to some of the current imbalance. Scale procs to AT damage, and scrappers and blasters will be even more dominant in the damage race.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, nihilii said:

I loathe many of the suggestions made so far. Limiting the number of procs in a power, for example, only removes build versatility. Proc builds require exponentially more thinking than 5-6 set pieces per power builds, at least for me, and that's great fun.

 

How do proc builds require more thinking?  That's a new one to me.  Take long recharge aoe power, load it with 5-6 dmg procs, toggle the power's use, go boom, repeat once recharged.  Not complicated.  

 

Minding your stat building, accounting for the 5x rule amongst all of your sets, seeing what bonuses you can build that can coincide with power selections to make you into an animal.   That seems a bit more complex.  

 

Proc bombing is a lame gimmick.  Not intellectually challenging.  

 

Sure some damage proc'ing should still be viable but how wouldn't changing some damage procs into doing other beneficial things not be versatile?  

 

Like @Naraka I'm not advocating for the change one way or another.  It's an observation that some things are easily abused and the devs are looking into it already, hence the topic to perk the devs ears a bit.  

 

 

Edited by Mezmera
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I've had a hunch for awhile that there would just be a 20s base recharge cap max added to formula so procs can't scale any higher than that tbh.

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16 minutes ago, nihilii said:

 

I loathe many of the suggestions made so far. Limiting the number of procs in a power, for example, only removes build versatility. Proc builds require exponentially more thinking than 5-6 set pieces per power builds, at least for me, and that's great fun.

 

 

Which suggestions are you referring to?

 

If they went for a plan similar to my 2nd suggestion, you could still set your proc bombs off but maybe 2 of your 6 procs would have a much lower chance of going off because they are static % chance like the old system was. On the others hand, if some were like in the old system, you could aim for a buzzsaw-lite build. That's not removing build versatility, that's increasing it.

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I'm late to this thread and have only skimmed it, but... how big a problem is "players abusing procs" anyway?  I mean, it's not like every build is sick with them like they are purples and AT IOs (you know, if you're worrying about players getting OPed).

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1 hour ago, nihilii said:

Stop local recharge from affecting proc rate and call it a day. This would change nothing for proc builds, who already avoid local recharge and use global recharge. While more traditional builds would see a boost in proc power. Thus evening the damage gap, and making proc builds even more of an extreme tradeoff with relatively smaller benefits.

 

This seems like it would potentially be a major buff to Scrappers, who could now achieve ~100% uptime with their ATO.

 

In general, any changes to the PPM system per se (rather than adjustments to how many procs you can slot where) risks pretty major changes to the balance of Stalkers and Scrappers.  Potentially Tankers too, though less likely.

 

Damage procs are fundamentally pretty easy to balance.  Special ability procs, like the Stalker/Scrapper (and other) ATOs, the Gaussian's Chance to Build Up, and probably a few others are much less easy, and are a fulcrum point for the effects of any PPM change.

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12 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

I have to disagree pretty strongly with that.

 

Honestly, having the KB-to-KD option available for it is what makes Bonfire worth taking. Back in the Live days, prior to the first of those showing up? It was basically a non-starter. Very few people used the power, and for good reason. It was just a bad pick. It made itself darn near useless by flinging things out right out of its own radius on a regular basis. Some of us still *tried* to find good uses for it... but most seemed to end up respeccing right back out of it, grumbling about "trash powers" and "Who actually thought patch-based knockback was a GOOD idea?!"

 

Granted, when the old devs introduced the first KB-to-KD special, it only came from the not-always-available, seasonal Summer Blockbuster event arc and it was an exclusive. You couldn't have more than one in a build, so dropping it into Bonfire came at the cost of using it anywhere else. We lost that cost when Sudden Acc was introduced, with its non-exclusive version. 

 

So... Would it make people feel better if Bonfire went back to only accepting the exclusive, Overwhelming version? They're much more expensive, and less easily obtained than just buying a recipe. If you couldn't just easily drop in a Sudden that you picked up for a million INF or so on the auction-house, you might see less people taking and using the power. Or it might increase the frequency of people running Summer Blockbuster. 

 

12 hours ago, arcane said:

If Bonfire can stay as KD that’s fine, but it would have to have its tick rate / recharge etc rebalanced around comparables Ice Slick and Earthquake.

 

The trouble with bonfire is that it ends up outperforming ice slick and earthquake (via lower recharge), and is available in APPs on ATs that arguably shouldn't have access to a control power that good (masterminds, blasters, maybe others?).

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9 hours ago, America's Angel said:

For all this talk of "fixing" procs, I've yet to see anyone clearly outline what the problem with them is.

 

If the problem cannot be clearly outlined, a discussion cannot be had, and a solution cannot be found.

 

So what might be more useful right now is, rather than suggesting things, why don't y'all try identifying things?

 

Actually run the numbers. Demonstrate the performance difference for a procless build vs a proc-filled build. Show the performance difference. (If there is one). And make sure you show the difference in both DPS and HPS. A procless build should have higher HPS due to more set bonuses. What you should be looking to compare is the overall DPS:HPS efficacy ratio of both builds.

 

This is what I do when putting together my super-min/max PvP builds. I look at my DPS and HPS. And I consider whether sacrificing DPS in some areas nets a higher HPS in other areas, making the overall "strength" of the build greater. This is the sort of analysis that has to happen. Also, you need to consider thresholds. What is the HPS you need to survive vs most content?  How easy is it to get there? Do you need more set bonuses to do this than a proc-build would allow? Can the survival gap be filled with inspirations? If so, how does a proc-filled build without inspirations compare to a procless build without inspirations, numerically?

 

And this goes beyond a simple build-to-build comparison. You'd also have to look at how procs function on the powerset-level. By this I mean analyzing how much procs help/do not help balance the different sets relative to each other on a given AT. Fire Blast and Ice Blast, for example; Fire does more damage, but Ice has better proccing options. Take procs away, and does the performance gap between fire and ice widen? Do procs bring up middling sets greater than they boost the top sets? (You can only answer this by running the numbers.)

 

And this also extends to the AT level, too. Do some ATs benefit more from procs than others? For example - brutes are swimming in +dam, so are procs better for them than Scrappers? Procs don't use AT damage modifiers, so do they boost up the DPS of low-damage ATs more than they boost up the DPS of high-damage ATS? (This is not rhetorical. This is something you will need to sit down and calculate in Excel.)

 

These are the sort of questions you will need to ask when running your analysis.

 

Until this is done. Suggesting a "fix" is premature. Because you don't even know what you're trying to fix. 

 

And this is worth stressing: numbers are reliable, humans aren't. The benefit of using quantitative analysis for balance is that it will lessen the impact of anecdotal observations in the discussion.

 

This has been done elsewhere, and is not the point of the thread. 

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3 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

I'm late to this thread and have only skimmed it, but... how big a problem is "players abusing procs" anyway?  I mean, it's not like every build is sick with them like they are purples and AT IOs (you know, if you're worrying about players getting OPed).

 

It's mostly just your typical forum hysteria. One thing I've learnt over the years is that forum consensus rarely reflects what's in game.

 

Now, with that said, there are a FEW powers which can genuinely abuse procs. But that's less a proc issue and more a power issue. As I said in one of my earlier posts, these powers are few and far between. The vast vast majority of powers play fine with damage procs.

 

Let me paint you a picture of one of these powers to demonstrate what abuse actually looks like, and to show you how the claims that 6-slotting damage procs in a ST hold doesn't even come close to being a genuine balance concern. Let's look at Burn.

 

Burn has a 90% proc rate, can slot 5 damage procs, and actually procs twice. (Once upon cast, and then once a split-second after this as the first burn patch spawns.) What this means is that you can:

1. Cast burn, and have 5 damage procs fire alongside the FOTG proc

2. Almost immediately after this, those five procs will then proc AGAIN as the first burn patch spawns... although this time those procs are firing for MORE damage because the mob has just been hit by the FOTG -res proc.

 

So, you have 10 procs hitting your enemies, 5 of which are doing 120% damage, PLUS all of the regular damage from burn.

 

What this means is that /fire blasters have a ~1000 damage nuke available every ~10s, that also does -20% res. (The most important debuff in the game.)

 

Oh and that thing about it proccing twice? That's not actually true. It can actually proc three times.

 

There are a few other powers like this. But it is genuinely only a handful. The powersets they're in are popular, though. Which gives the illusion of the "problem" being more all-encompassing than it actually is.

Edited by America's Angel
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3 hours ago, Vooded said:

 

This has been done elsewhere, and is not the point of the thread. 

 

I think a discussion about identifying the actual dev-stated problem with procs, fits in with the thread.

 

Granted it's not going change what the devs decide to do, even if you identify the problems. But it adds to the discussion for those who have not been paying attention to the proc discussions of previous. (/raises hand).

 

The discussion about Powerhouse's thoughts on it helped.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, aethereal said:

This seems like it would potentially be a major buff to Scrappers, who could now achieve ~100% uptime with their ATO.

Scrapper proc builds are already very very close to this, to the point sometimes in practice it is 100% uptime. ie a rad/bio/soul can run Deva (set up ATO), Moonbeam (Critical Strikes), Atom Smasher (Critical Strikes), repeat, with a gap so minimal it serves as repositioning.

 

It would buff mostly regular builds. But I can see your point, and I could see a global decrease in proc rate (or a targeted decrease on specific, "problematic" procs) to go with a change that stopped local recharge from hurting proc rate.

 

6 hours ago, Mezmera said:

How do proc builds require more thinking?  That's a new one to me.  Take long recharge aoe power, load it with 5-6 dmg procs, toggle the power's use, go boom, repeat once recharged.  Not complicated.  

A proc bomb has by nature low/no accuracy, low/no end reduction and low/no recharge. Which means you need to take care of these aspects somehow. Do that in one power and you might get away with it with no other changes, because set bonuses elsewhere carry your build. A regular build tends to be overslotted for accuracy, for example.

 

Do that in several powers (which is what I call a proc build) and you're going to have to specifically pursue accuracy set bonuses and end management. Even recharge, which is chased by everyone and so could be handwaved away, still requires more dedicated effort as a power that is slotted with 5-6 procs is a power that is not getting a 10% recharge purple set bonus.

 

Likewise, traditional defense building for the softcap is something you will either have to give up or work much harder. It's a simple question of opportunity cost. Every power loaded with procs is a power that is not getting juicier set bonuses.

 

6 hours ago, Mezmera said:

Minding your stat building, accounting for the 5x rule amongst all of your sets, seeing what bonuses you can build that can coincide with power selections to make you into an animal.   That seems a bit more complex.

When you make a proc build, it's not as if you give up on set bonuses and just cram procs everywhere. Such a build would likely severely underperform. Those proc bombs would miss, the character would have no defenses whatsoever, run dry within seconds, and generally be a pain in the ass to play.

 

A proc build typically cares about stat building even more than a regular build, because it's all about shoring up the weaknesses I detailed above, and doing that with less slots (every slot occupied by a proc is a wasted slot, essentially). Reaching 95% chance to hit against +4s is a quest in itself. Finding those extra slots can involve harsh tradeoffs, such as slotting defensive powers with 2 or even just 1 slot.

 

Random example: here's an AR/Invul proc build I made yesterday. Took me about an hour, and incidentally I *just* noticed before uploading it here I screwed up Buckshot with only 87.5% accuracy, had to swap the Ragnarok Dam/End for an Annihilation Acc/Dam.

 

Spoiler
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer to view the build |
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		|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

You can see the above points in display. I'm slotting Chain Fences and a full apoc set in Incinerator for accuracy bonuses, + 3 slotting Sentinel Ward in full auto to grab more accuracy bonus (and +range) while having good local recharge for that power. I also use 2 pieces Winter Sets to combine chasing for slow resistance with the need for accuracy. I 2 slot or 1 slot most defensive toggles to get extra room. Finally, it's a given the character will need Ageless to function at full pace.

 

As I'm writing this post, I went ahead and remade an AR/Inv Sent from scratch as a regular build. I originally estimated and wrote it would take me about 10-15 minutes. In the end, it took me 7 minutes.

Spoiler
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer to view the build |
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		|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

There was no deep thinking involved. I mostly just slotted sets in powers 1 by 1. With that I get all my accuracy needs fulfilled, enough recharge for native perma Hasten should one ++ the IOs, better defensive numbers all across the board. Endurance is admittedly a little low (although obviously better than the proc build), and this character would need Ageless for sustained DPS over minutes. This could likely be fixed with an extra ~5 minutes of thinking, reallocating slots towards Durability and/or Health for Miracle/Numina procs...

 

The cognitive effort here is significantly less.

 

Now, perhaps I'm a natural at traditional builds and suck at proc builds. We've all had years more of experience with traditional builds, if nothing else.

 

So I suppose it's possible, but I'm not sure it's probable. In my experience, at least for me personally, proc builds undoubtedly add another layer of complexity to Mids.

Edited by nihilii
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