Sentinels - A New Direction

[aethereal]

This is an integrated proposal for rehauling Sentinels.  It has a 0% chance of being implemented, so I wouldn't get super bogged down in details.  More like maybe someone will take inspiration from it.

 

Problem Statement/Goals

 

Currently, the problem with Sentinels are three-fold:

 

1.  They are a damage class that does mediocre damage.

2.  Their inherent is interesting but underwhelming, and tries to make somewhat irritating demands on the use of T1/T2 powers.

3.  They lack a clear team role, where their defensive excellence is low value for a few possible reasons and their mediocre damage is even worse compared to blasters or other melee classes.

4.  Their ATOs fail to add much of anything to the class.  Beyond the defense/recharge that are characteristics of most ATOs, Sentinels mainly get a bit of a range buff (which, why did we nerf their range to begin with?).  The procs are both bad.

 

Expanding on point three slightly:  In a fast-moving steamroll team, nobody's defense matters, and the only contribution you can make to a team is high damage (Sentinels share problems with Controllers, Defenders, Brutes, etc on this kind of team).  In teams that do care about defense, but which have tanks, Sentinels can't really help tanks at all.  In a team without a tank/brute, but which isn't steamrolling, where defensiveness is actually relevant, Sentinels lack any ability to defend other, less-armored members of the team, lacking any form of taunt/increased threat generation.

 

Proposal

 

0.  Things we're removing

 

The current Opportunity inherent is gone in its entirety, including the -5% resist debuff that Sents get for free with most attacks, also both the -20% resist debuff that comes with both Opportunity modes and the proc-like effects of offensive/defensive Opportunity.  In fact, there will be no opportunity meter for Sentinels.

 

1.  Improving Sentinel Damage Scale

 

Increase the Sentinel damage scalar to 1.125.

 

Commentary:  Sentinels will still lag behind Scrappers (they have no criticals), and Blasters (no Defiance, no snipes, radically less-powerful nukes, lower target caps).  But they'll be much more straightforwardly powerful, and by moving their damage into damage scalar and out of resist debuffs, they'll be much better in high level-differential content (ie, +4 enemies) and against hard targets (AVs etc).  The only benefit of their resist debuffs was in team content, and it's just frankly the case that Sentinels aren't particularly valued on teams -- their resist debuffs won't be missed.  Against even-level content, previous Sentinel damage was .95 * 1.05 = scale .9975 outside of Opportunity, and it will now be 1.125, a 12.8% improvement.  Against +4 content, their old damage scale was .95 * (1 + .05 * .48) = .9728.

 

(Contrast:  Scrappers eventually get pretty strong -- 75%ish?  uptime on their ATO, so that improves their damage scalar to something like an effective 1.5.  Blasters are a more difficult comparison, but probably do will continue to do about 20-50% more damage than Sents with these changes.)

 

Their damage will be further improved by their new inherent and ATOs.

 

2.  New Inherent

 

Sentinels get inherent improved Perception, and all their attacks have a -stealth component to all targets.

 

Commentary:  This is a minor flavor bonus for the AT.  It's pretty unnoticeable for actual play, but it seems appropriate for a class called "Sentinel."  In the (very rare!) case where stealthed enemies are a problem for a team, Sentinels help the whole team by stripping down stealth on their targets.

 

Additionally, Sentinels get an inherent, zero-cost toggle power called Hunter.  When this power is OFF, they get the following bonus:

 

All of their AoE attacks in primary/secondary powers give -damage (say, 10%) and -recharge speed (also 10%), stackable twice, relatively short duration (10 seconds?).  Resistable.

 

When the toggle is ON, they do not get the bonus to their AoE attacks, but get the following bonus to all the ST attacks in their primary (and secondary, but I don't think there are any ST attacks in armor sets):

 

All of their single-target attacks do an additional damage component with 50% probability (about 20% of their normal damage, enhanceable), and give a minor slow-movement (but not slow recharge) component with 100% probability, stackable let's say 2 or 3 times.

 

Commentary:

 

Sentinels have the potential to have pretty boring gameplay.  All they really do is attack.  Positioning is not as critical for them as for melee damage classes, since they have range, and they generally do not have many powers that can be used particularly strategically -- their attacks are on fast timers and even if they have holds or whatever they tend to be high-damage attacks that they will use in their attack chain, with very short holds, not things that they'll use situationally to remove an opponent from a fight.  As a result, we want an inherent that adds some interest to their core gameplay loop, not one that disappears into the background.  Hence a fairly high-management inherent.

 

The toggle-off mode of play gives Sents an additional mitigation technique that helps teams and "stacks" with tanks (that is, it improves mitigation even when there's a strong tanker), without being taunt-based.  This allows a Sentinel who finds themselves the most durable member of a team to take a somewhat protective role, taking alpha and spraying enemies down with -damage and -recharge, without stepping on a tank's tose.  In order to keep the debuffs rolling, a Sentinel must step into its role of "sustained AoE," trying to keep the debuff spread on as many of the opponents as possible.

 

The toggle-on mode of play gives Sents more damage against single hard targets, without concern that they'll impinge on a blaster's role as premier AoE combatant, and helps keep hard targets from running all around like an asshole in solo play or team play that lacks a taunter, again without stepping on the toes of the taunting classes.  It also allows a Sentinel to kite somewhat better, despite their shorter range, which again adds some potential interest to their play.

 

3.  New ATOs

 

Opportunity Strikes gets renamed to something else, idk, I suck at names, but there's no more opportunity.  So maybe something dumb like Sentinel Strikes.

 

It has the same enhancements except for the proc.

 

The proc is replaced with a 3.5 PPM (4.5 PPM in the superior version) proc that does a 10' PBAoE around the target that it procs on, target cap 4, that does standard proc (70ish) smashing damage.  It has a one-second lockout, so it can not fire multiple times if slotted into an AoE attack.

 

Remove the level 2 set bonus (the range bonus), and replace it with a 5% accuracy bonus in the non-superior version.

 

Sentinel's Ward also gets renamed.

 

It has the same enhancements except for the proc.

 

The proc is replaced with a 3.5 PPM (4.5 PPM in the superior version) proc that does a normal proc (70ish) smashing damage (to just one target) and simultaneously a knockdown.

 

Remove the level 3 set bonus (the range bonus), and replace it with a 3% damage bonus in the non-superior version.

 

Commentary:

 

Both sets now have damage procs that are strictly superior to a normal damage proc, aiding overall Sentinel damage.  The "sustained AoE" role is improved by the first proc, and the second proc gives Sentinels a small mitigation tool that they can use without loss of damage, that helps mitigate the fact that I'm shortening their range and removing defensive opportunity (and removing the Sentinel's Ward proc, but haha it was awful).  It also gives them a strategic choice about using that mitigation tool in a ST or AoE power, depending on their focus.

 

4. Changes to APPs

 

Remove whatever is the least good power in each Epic, and replace with something patterned after the appropriate Blaster sustain -- ie, a heal or absorb shield and powerful endurance bonus, plus potentially some other minor things.  However, these won't be toggles but clicks with 30 second durations and unenhanceable 1 minute recharge times (so, 50% uptime with out slot commitment).

 

Commentary:  This finishes off compensating Sents for their removed defensive opportunity/ability to sustain.  Numbers would probably have to be adjusted off the Blaster versions.

[SwitchFade]

1 - sorry, no vote. More damage, maybe, that's too high

 

2 - sorry, no vote. Any change that removes the healing component, no vote.

 

3 - sorry, no vote. Procs for damage are already prolific and the mechanic is a bit gimmicky.

 

 

[aethereal]

2 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

1 - sorry, no vote. More damage, maybe, that's too high

 

It's a 12-13% increase in damage outside Opportunity (packaged with things that remove Opportunity).  Let me suggest that if you buff the damage of a class by significantly less that 10%, nobody will really notice.

[BrandX]

2 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

1 - sorry, no vote. More damage, maybe, that's too high

 

2 - sorry, no vote. Any change that removes the healing component, no vote.

 

3 - sorry, no vote. Procs for damage are already prolific and the mechanic is a bit gimmicky.

 

 

 

I used nothing but the Healing Component on my Sentinel and I can say, never noticed it 😛

 

Not that I would say get rid of it now, but still, if it was gotten rid of, it wouldn't be noticed.

[Naraka]

4 hours ago, aethereal said:

This is an integrated proposal for rehauling Sentinels.  It has a 0% chance of being implemented, so I wouldn't get super bogged down in details.  More like maybe someone will take inspiration from it.

 

 

In this context, I see no issue looking at radical ideas, get opinions of certain aspects from different people's perspectives and just mull over what-ifs.  I tend to do that myself when I feel the urge to post suggestions people get bogged down by things like difficulty to implement and/or just disliking something.

 

4 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

Problem Statement/Goals

 

Currently, the problem with Sentinels are three-fold:

 

1.  They are a damage class that does mediocre damage.

2.  Their inherent is interesting but underwhelming, and tries to make somewhat irritating demands on the use of T1/T2 powers.

3.  They lack a clear team role, where their defensive excellence is low value for a few possible reasons and their mediocre damage is even worse compared to blasters or other melee classes.

4.  Their ATOs fail to add much of anything to the class.  Beyond the defense/recharge that are characteristics of most ATOs, Sentinels mainly get a bit of a range buff (which, why did we nerf their range to begin with?).  The procs are both bad.

 

Expanding on point three slightly:  In a fast-moving steamroll team, nobody's defense matters, and the only contribution you can make to a team is high damage (Sentinels share problems with Controllers, Defenders, Brutes, etc on this kind of team).  In teams that do care about defense, but which have tanks, Sentinels can't really help tanks at all.  In a team without a tank/brute, but which isn't steamrolling, where defensiveness is actually relevant, Sentinels lack any ability to defend other, less-armored members of the team, lacking any form of taunt/increased threat generation.

 

Proposal

 

0.  Things we're removing

 

The current Opportunity inherent is gone in its entirety, including the -5% resist debuff that Sents get for free with most attacks, also both the -20% resist debuff that comes with both Opportunity modes and the proc-like effects of offensive/defensive Opportunity.  In fact, there will be no opportunity meter for Sentinels.

 

 

I think having an interesting inherent that you're just going to remove seems like a less than optimal route to take here.  I don't have as much experience with the other mentioned problem statements.

 

4 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

1.  Improving Sentinel Damage Scale

 

Increase the Sentinel damage scalar to 1.125.

 

Commentary:  Sentinels will still lag behind Scrappers (they have no criticals), and Blasters (no Defiance, no snipes, radically less-powerful nukes, lower target caps).  But they'll be much more straightforwardly powerful, and by moving their damage into damage scalar and out of resist debuffs, they'll be much better in high level-differential content (ie, +4 enemies) and against hard targets (AVs etc).  The only benefit of their resist debuffs was in team content, and it's just frankly the case that Sentinels aren't particularly valued on teams -- their resist debuffs won't be missed.  Against even-level content, previous Sentinel damage was .95 * 1.05 = scale .9975 outside of Opportunity, and it will now be 1.125, a 12.8% improvement.  Against +4 content, their old damage scale was .95 * (1 + .05 * .48) = .9728.

 

(Contrast:  Scrappers eventually get pretty strong -- 75%ish?  uptime on their ATO, so that improves their damage scalar to something like an effective 1.5.  Blasters are a more difficult comparison, but probably do will continue to do about 20-50% more damage than Sents with these changes.)

 

Their damage will be further improved by their new inherent and ATOs.

 

2.  New Inherent

 

Sentinels get inherent improved Perception, and all their attacks have a -stealth component to all targets.

 

Commentary:  This is a minor flavor bonus for the AT.  It's pretty unnoticeable for actual play, but it seems appropriate for a class called "Sentinel."  In the (very rare!) case where stealthed enemies are a problem for a team, Sentinels help the whole team by stripping down stealth on their targets.

 

Additionally, Sentinels get an inherent, zero-cost toggle power called Hunter.  When this power is OFF, they get the following bonus:

 

All of their AoE attacks in primary/secondary powers give -damage (say, 10%) and -recharge speed (also 10%), stackable twice, relatively short duration (10 seconds?).  Resistable.

 

When the toggle is ON, they do not get the bonus to their AoE attacks, but get the following bonus to all the ST attacks in their primary (and secondary, but I don't think there are any ST attacks in armor sets):

 

All of their single-target attacks do an additional damage component with 50% probability (about 20% of their normal damage, enhanceable), and give a minor slow-movement (but not slow recharge) component with 100% probability, stackable let's say 2 or 3 times.

 

Commentary:

 

Sentinels have the potential to have pretty boring gameplay.  All they really do is attack.  Positioning is not as critical for them as for melee damage classes, since they have range, and they generally do not have many powers that can be used particularly strategically -- their attacks are on fast timers and even if they have holds or whatever they tend to be high-damage attacks that they will use in their attack chain, with very short holds, not things that they'll use situationally to remove an opponent from a fight.  As a result, we want an inherent that adds some interest to their core gameplay loop, not one that disappears into the background.  Hence a fairly high-management inherent.

 

The toggle-off mode of play gives Sents an additional mitigation technique that helps teams and "stacks" with tanks (that is, it improves mitigation even when there's a strong tanker), without being taunt-based.  This allows a Sentinel who finds themselves the most durable member of a team to take a somewhat protective role, taking alpha and spraying enemies down with -damage and -recharge, without stepping on a tank's tose.  In order to keep the debuffs rolling, a Sentinel must step into its role of "sustained AoE," trying to keep the debuff spread on as many of the opponents as possible.

 

The toggle-on mode of play gives Sents more damage against single hard targets, without concern that they'll impinge on a blaster's role as premier AoE combatant, and helps keep hard targets from running all around like an asshole in solo play or team play that lacks a taunter, again without stepping on the toes of the taunting classes.  It also allows a Sentinel to kite somewhat better, despite their shorter range, which again adds some potential interest to their play.

 

 

Not sure why ATO buffs in a section about damage scalars. Either Scrappers outdamage Sent with the new scalar or it doesn't.  Trying to extrapolate an approximate disparity after taking into account the AT's special ATO kind of defeats the point of even having special gears to modify the AT.  They're supposed to be a bonus on top of what is already in place which accentuates a specialty or functionality.

 

As for the idea at hand, just removing a mechanic to increase damage seems boring.  It'd kind of be like just removing Stalker controlled crits and just increasing their scalar and sticking with random crits.  As for the inherent, I see what you did with the extra debuffs...seems kind of a throw-away addition as I'm certain no one is ever going to not run that toggle.  I don't hate it but I always see through trying to sacrifice things people don't care about for something good.  It's the same argument I feel with the proc thread that people say "you're sacrificing set bonuses to get the extra damage" and that isn't really a sacrifice since you likely are getting the same stats you normally would get elsewhere.  Those players abusing procs aren't walking around with unenhanced accuracy and base recharging attacks lol.  They get what they need elsewhere and take the damage they want unhindered.

 

Now if there was an *actual* sacrifice to using that inherent toggle, that might present some interesting dynamics...like if you didn't get rid of the opportunity bar but instead repurposed it to build while the toggle was off then when you put the toggle on, you get that sweet damage proc...but the proc scaled with the bar and everytime you got additional damage, the chance got lower and lower until it was dropped to a small 5% chance.

 

5 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

3.  New ATOs

 

Opportunity Strikes gets renamed to something else, idk, I suck at names, but there's no more opportunity.  So maybe something dumb like Sentinel Strikes.

 

It has the same enhancements except for the proc.

 

The proc is replaced with a 3.5 PPM (4.5 PPM in the superior version) proc that does a 10' PBAoE around the target that it procs on, target cap 4, that does standard proc (70ish) smashing damage.  It has a one-second lockout, so it can not fire multiple times if slotted into an AoE attack.

 

Remove the level 2 set bonus (the range bonus), and replace it with a 5% accuracy bonus in the non-superior version.

 

Sentinel's Ward also gets renamed.

 

It has the same enhancements except for the proc.

 

The proc is replaced with a 3.5 PPM (4.5 PPM in the superior version) proc that does a normal proc (70ish) smashing damage (to just one target) and simultaneously a knockdown.

 

Remove the level 3 set bonus (the range bonus), and replace it with a 3% damage bonus in the non-superior version.

 

Commentary:

 

Both sets now have damage procs that are strictly superior to a normal damage proc, aiding overall Sentinel damage.  The "sustained AoE" role is improved by the first proc, and the second proc gives Sentinels a small mitigation tool that they can use without loss of damage, that helps mitigate the fact that I'm shortening their range and removing defensive opportunity (and removing the Sentinel's Ward proc, but haha it was awful).  It also gives them a strategic choice about using that mitigation tool in a ST or AoE power, depending on their focus.

 

4. Changes to APPs

 

Remove whatever is the least good power in each Epic, and replace with something patterned after the appropriate Blaster sustain -- ie, a heal or absorb shield and powerful endurance bonus, plus potentially some other minor things.  However, these won't be toggles but clicks with 30 second durations and unenhanceable 1 minute recharge times (so, 50% uptime with out slot commitment).

 

Commentary:  This finishes off compensating Sents for their removed defensive opportunity/ability to sustain.  Numbers would probably have to be adjusted off the Blaster versions.

 

The rest of this feels rank-and-file into the standard meta build goals so someone else can give a better commentary on this.  Seems interesting but not my thing...

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

I think having an interesting inherent that you're just going to remove seems like a less than optimal route to take here.  I don't have as much experience with the other mentioned problem statements.

 

The inherent is interesting, and I'm worried that my proposed inherent is less interesting.  But also, the current inherent is baaaaaaaaaaad.  So bad that trying to fix it is I'm not sure a workable approach.

 

Problems with the current inherent:

 

1.  It's really confusing.  You have to increase the meter to full, then use a T1 or T2 power.  Then the visible effect that people notice is a heal/end heal for defensive opportunity, or a damage proc for offensive opportunity.  So much so that people don't necessarily even realize that with either opportunity, you're also doing a -20% res debuff on your main target.  People have a LOT of questions about the sent inherent.

 

2.  It's single-target, and comes late in a fight.  In most situations, by the time you can get the inherent off, the person you want to target with it is half dead or more.  The actual -res effect is useless for AoE.

 

3.  You have to slot your T1 and/or T2 to at least well enough to hit things, which is often a waste -- specifically, in the context of sentinel blast sets that almost invariably have at least two powers that are on rapid-enough recharges to be in your main rotation and do a lot more damage than your T1 or T2.  So it kinda doesn't play well with the basic dynamic of sentinels.

 

4.  People get excited about -res as a mechanic, but we should note that against a +4 opponent, your debuffs are at 48%.  It scales really badly against high-level opponents.

 

5.  They sacrifice one of the ATOs for it, and it's an underwhelming proc.

 

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

Not sure why ATO buffs in a section about damage scalars. Either Scrappers outdamage Sent with the new scalar or it doesn't.  Trying to extrapolate an approximate disparity after taking into account the AT's special ATO kind of defeats the point of even having special gears to modify the AT.  They're supposed to be a bonus on top of what is already in place which accentuates a specialty or functionality.

 

I mean, that's one concept for design, but it's not CoH's one.  Scrappers' damage collapses without their ATOs.  So does Stalkers'.

 

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

 

As for the idea at hand, just removing a mechanic to increase damage seems boring.  It'd kind of be like just removing Stalker controlled crits and just increasing their scalar and sticking with random crits.  As for the inherent, I see what you did with the extra debuffs...seems kind of a throw-away addition as I'm certain no one is ever going to not run that toggle.  I don't hate it but I always see through trying to sacrifice things people don't care about for something good.

 

I feel like the inherent is the weakest part of my proposal.  I'm pretty hemmed in.  Powerhouse is on record as not wanting to give sentinels any kind of taunt, and wanting to be somewhere between rolling back the -res and at least no more of it.  I'm trying to give sentinels a role as sentinels, as like watchful guardians, and do it without taunt.  They'll never be allowed to have blaster-level damage, so giving them some kind of protective role without taunt is tough.

[Zepp]

I do not think you need to go so drastic.

 

I think combining o/d opportunity into a single opportunity effect and allowing it to proc from any ST attack from the primary would be a better approach.

 

For the ATO procs, fixing Opportunity would fix one of them, while the other could be improved by increasing the proc and making it noticeable.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Zepp

[Katharos]

I actually really like these proposed changes. I can easily imagine how it would change general sentinel gameplay into something much more thoughtful in solo play and helpful in team play, with minimal conscious exertion on the part of sentinel players. It's not exactly carving out a weird new niche so much as complimenting existing composition, and I can see it playing well with a variety of ATs in a variety of contexts. Though, I really wish less enemies in the game had total immunity to slows. Less of a complaint about the idea and more a complaint about the broader game.

 

It even sounds fun! I confess that the weird range tax sentinels have to pay is my biggest barrier to enjoy them, enough that I deleted mine upon realising her ball taoe would be a pathetic 40ft. Bundling up range improvements in the ATOs was completely useless for my purposes - the other set bonuses were useless for my character in my circumstances.

 

I like the perception improvement because when you notice you're having perception problems, you're usually a deep breath from having full-on survival problems. If just because Arachnos are already a hard enemy group without all the rare debuffs and status afflictions. 

As far as I can tell, this proposal addresses just about all my major problems with sentinels with fun and useful sounding alternatives.

[Naraka]

10 hours ago, Katharos said:

 

I like the perception improvement because when you notice you're having perception problems, you're usually a deep breath from having full-on survival problems. If just because Arachnos are already a hard enemy group without all the rare debuffs and status afflictions. 
 

 

Speaking on that, it would be an interesting niche if more factions used stealth and -perception more often.  It's such a powerful effect and has multiple counters, I can see making this an enemy option if faced at +3 and +4 difficulty...if it is at all possible to swap in the proper mobs dependent on your relative level, that is.

 

11 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

The inherent is interesting, and I'm worried that my proposed inherent is less interesting.  But also, the current inherent is baaaaaaaaaaad.  So bad that trying to fix it is I'm not sure a workable approach.

 

Problems with the current inherent:

 

1.  It's really confusing.  You have to increase the meter to full, then use a T1 or T2 power.  Then the visible effect that people notice is a heal/end heal for defensive opportunity, or a damage proc for offensive opportunity.  So much so that people don't necessarily even realize that with either opportunity, you're also doing a -20% res debuff on your main target.  People have a LOT of questions about the sent inherent.

 

2.  It's single-target, and comes late in a fight.  In most situations, by the time you can get the inherent off, the person you want to target with it is half dead or more.  The actual -res effect is useless for AoE.

 

3.  You have to slot your T1 and/or T2 to at least well enough to hit things, which is often a waste -- specifically, in the context of sentinel blast sets that almost invariably have at least two powers that are on rapid-enough recharges to be in your main rotation and do a lot more damage than your T1 or T2.  So it kinda doesn't play well with the basic dynamic of sentinels.

 

4.  People get excited about -res as a mechanic, but we should note that against a +4 opponent, your debuffs are at 48%.  It scales really badly against high-level opponents.

 

5.  They sacrifice one of the ATOs for it, and it's an underwhelming proc.

 

 

Haven't really only recently started rolling up various Sents, I have a fresh view of how I perceived the inherent after mostly forgetting that Sents exist over the course of nearly a year.

 

1. I actually noticed defensive opportunity more than offense.  Working on a DP/Fire at the time, I had the toggle for fire damage on my attacks as well as Incendiary rounds so the extra damage procs I got from offensive opportunity were drowned out.  The main res debuff seems pretty obvious to me but I've played other games with a similar mechanic that gave a similar visual cue.

 

2. This, I'd agree, is the most annoying part in that, I built up opportunity and end up wasting the debuff on something I'm finishing off.  I too suggested a rework to that particular mechanic to refresh the target once the target is taken out.

 

3. I think rolling the opportunities together so there's only "Opportunity" instead of offense vs defense would also mean you can take either the tier 1 or tier 2 instead of both.  You have to take 1 anyway.  But as for needing to take and use them, I tend to do that anyway purely so I can experience the whole set.

 

4. & 5. I would say are limitations many ATs experience in some fashion or another.  

 

12 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

I mean, that's one concept for design, but it's not CoH's one.  Scrappers' damage collapses without their ATOs.  So does Stalkers'.

 

 

I feel like the inherent is the weakest part of my proposal.  I'm pretty hemmed in.  Powerhouse is on record as not wanting to give sentinels any kind of taunt, and wanting to be somewhere between rolling back the -res and at least no more of it.  I'm trying to give sentinels a role as sentinels, as like watchful guardians, and do it without taunt.  They'll never be allowed to have blaster-level damage, so giving them some kind of protective role without taunt is tough.

 

Collapse compared to what?  I've played plenty of Stalkers who do and don't use the ATO.

 

As for the conceptual role of Sentinel, I always perceived it as providing an overwatch which you can kinda do if you're at a distance, you can see the whole battlefield while you engage and take action from that perspective.  Your mechanical suggestion might assist in that concept but I think the AT's actual role will always be merely damage.

[aethereal]

19 hours ago, Naraka said:

Collapse compared to what?  I've played plenty of Stalkers who do and don't use the ATO.

 

Scrapper and Stalker damage without their ATOs would collapse compared to Scraps and Stalks who do use their ATOs.

 

A basically competently slotted Scrapper who uses their chance-for-+50%-crit-rate ATO should get around a +20% to their damage just there (that is:  it's not particularly difficult to get 50% uptime with this proc.  A crit is roughly +100% damage for a power, but not including procs etc so let's call it +80%.  So if you crit 50% more often, that's +40% damage.  Half uptime, +20% damage).  That's not a tip-top, I'm going to actually get the most out of this ATO build, it's a basically competent build.  Their other ATO gives another +2-5% damage just by itself.

 

It's harder to put exact numbers to the Stalker ATOs, and probably certain sets value the chance-to-hide one more than others (it really shines if you have another really big hitter in your set that you can crit with), but it shouldn't be hard to get +15-20% damage just by using the two ATOs for most Stalkers.

 

Scrappers without their ATOs would be comparable to or worse than Brutes in damage output.  It's a big deal.

 

(It's worth pointing out that I'm NOT proposing huge-deal ATOs.  I'm proposing ATOs that are broadly useful and support damage dealing, without being game-changers like Scrapper/Stalker ATOs.  As opposed to current Sent ATOs that don't really add any damage.)

 

Quote

 

As for the conceptual role of Sentinel, I always perceived it as providing an overwatch which you can kinda do if you're at a distance, you can see the whole battlefield while you engage and take action from that perspective.  Your mechanical suggestion might assist in that concept but I think the AT's actual role will always be merely damage.

 

If Sentinels are to provide a team benefit based on "merely damage," then their damage should be comparable to Blasters (who also provide mere damage).  That'd be a HUGE damage increase for Sentinels, something I don't think anyone has much appetite for.

Edited July 6, 2021 by aethereal

[Gobbledigook]

I can see you have thought about this a lot. I like the idea, but....... you have spelled Toes in 2 different ways lol, typo? Nice ideas though 🙂

[Naraka]

54 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

Scrapper and Stalker damage without their ATOs would collapse compared to Scraps and Stalks who do use their ATOs.

 

A basically competently slotted Scrapper who uses their chance-for-+50%-crit-rate ATO should get around a +20% to their damage just there (that is:  it's not particularly difficult to get 50% uptime with this proc.  A crit is roughly +100% damage for a power, but not including procs etc so let's call it +80%.  So if you crit 50% more often, that's +40% damage.  Half uptime, +20% damage).  That's not a tip-top, I'm going to actually get the most out of this ATO build, it's a basically competent build.  Their other ATO gives another +2-5% damage just by itself.

 

It's harder to put exact numbers to the Stalker ATOs, and probably certain sets value the chance-to-hide one more than others (it really shines if you have another really big hitter in your set that you can crit with), but it shouldn't be hard to get +15-20% damage just by using the two ATOs for most Stalkers.

 

Scrappers without their ATOs would be comparable to or worse than Brutes in damage output.  It's a big deal.

 

(It's worth pointing out that I'm NOT proposing huge-deal ATOs.  I'm proposing ATOs that are broadly useful and support damage dealing, without being game-changers like Scrapper/Stalker ATOs.  As opposed to current Sent ATOs that don't really add any damage.)

 

 

If Sentinels are to provide a team benefit based on "merely damage," then their damage should be comparable to Blasters (who also provide mere damage).  That'd be a HUGE damage increase for Sentinels, something I don't think anyone has much appetite for.

 

A benefit should not be seen as mandatory and Scrappers and Stalkers can function competently without ATOs.  There's already a huge debate about balancing around IOs, and ATOs are like IOs on speed.

 

As for Sents needing to be comparable to Blasters, why?  Why not Scrappers?  To give them comparable damage to Blasters, you'd first have to take most if not all their mez protection away...

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Gobbledegook said:

I can see you have thought about this a lot. I like the idea, but....... you have spelled Toes in 2 different ways lol, typo? Nice ideas though 🙂

I did.  Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

 

A benefit should not be seen as mandatory and Scrappers and Stalkers can function competently without ATOs.  There's already a huge debate about balancing around IOs, and ATOs are like IOs on speed.

 

The game is easy.  You can play it successfully with vastly underperforming builds (certainly including Sentinels, my first 50 on Homecoming was an archery/ninj sent, and I soloed AVs and so forth).  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't consider how ATOs affect classes, and very specifically how they differentially affect classes.

 

Again, I didn't propose gigantic, game-changing ATOs.  I proposed broadly useful ATOs, not broadly useless ones like Sentinels have now.

 

 

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

 

As for Sents needing to be comparable to Blasters, why?  Why not Scrappers?  To give them comparable damage to Blasters, you'd first have to take most if not all their mez protection away...

Scrappers have more of an aggro-management role than Sentinels, they are protective of the group in a few ways:

 

1.  Some scrapper sets have taunt auras.

 

2.  Just being in the middle of melee means that AoEs that get sent a scrapper's way will not tend to hit the fragile ranged classes who are keeping their distance.  Sentinels who do draw aggro will tend to draw AoEs into the fragile folks.

 

3.  I guess confront, but who cares.

 

At any rate, well-built Scrappers have ST damage that I think is comparable to or exceeds Blaster level.  Blasters have nukes and 16 target-cap AoEs.

[Replacement]

0 - sure. I'm game for anything if the end result is neat.

 

1 - I would like to see a bit of a damage bump, but not a fan of going anywhere near 1.125.

 

Even with lower target caps, you are still pushing them too close to the Blaster distinction. A class that is almost a blaster will still always be compared to blaster, and never escape its shadow.

 

2 - could be interesting but doesn't seem like it goes far enough. I understand the devil is in the (subject to testing) details, but this seems to me to essentially be a choice between chemical or cryo ammo vs incendiary ammo. I don't feel it will add enough definition to carry the AT as a whole.

 

3 - yeah, new ATOs will probably become necessary. Even if we keep the Opportunity bar, Opportunity Strikes feels a bit like a tax on fill rate.

 

4 - I believe every Sentinel armor set has what I think of as a Sustain-lite -- an endurance assist. Usually it's minor recovery bonuses or a small +max end benefit, but I believe at least one of them simply has a steeply-discounted toggle.

 

If that's an avenue we would like to express definition in, I think it makes more sense to enhance these existing powers (and they don't need the regen/absorb half, seeing as they already have an Armor set to pull from).

 

As for Epics, the original version of Sentinel apparently had a pet, so I'd love to see that come back as a t1 epic option (all sets, not just patrons) instead.

 

---

 

The big thing I have wanted more focus on is how Sentinel mez attacks deal full scale damage, and their debuffs are applied by attacking, meaning they have an action economy advantage on mez/debuffs (they do not lower their DPS to do so). This is why I keep advocating improving their secondary effects, and other means to emphasize helping the party without breaking stride.

 

Being a "master of none" usually sucks in team games because you're only doing one thing poorly at a time. Focus on doing them all simultaneously and maybe we'll have something where your party has a different expectation than "Meh blaster with meh extra debuffs."

[aethereal]

32 minutes ago, Replacement said:

1 - I would like to see a bit of a damage bump, but not a fan of going anywhere near 1.125.

 

Even with lower target caps, you are still pushing them too close to the Blaster distinction. A class that is almost a blaster will still always be compared to blaster, and never escape its shadow.

 

I think that people really overestimate how much of the blaster damage excellence is due to their scalar, and how much is due to other things.

 

Blasters have both aim and build up.  They have defiance.  They have full-strength nukes.  They have snipes.  And they have a bunch of very attractive attacks in their secondaries.

 

Compare Sentinels to Scrappers.  Scrappers have 1.125 damage scalar, and then they have crits.  The superior ATO for Scrappers gives +50% to-hit rate with 3 PPM.  If you have just 100% global recharge (ie, much less than perma-hasten, which is 180% global recharge), then you expect to have 6 procs per minute.  Each proc lasts 5 seconds, so that's 50% uptime of your +50% crit rate.  Your base crit rate is 8% (minions)/16% (non-minions).  So during your proc uptime, you have a 58-66% chance to crit, and otherwise 8-16%.  Let's call it 60%/10%.  That's a 35% overall chance to crit.  Crits mostly double your damage, but they don't double procs or a few weird powers.

 

So all in all, your damage is increased by let's say 25% by crits for a competently slotted level 50 Scrapper.  If we translate that back into scalar, that's the equivalent of a 1.4 scalar!  Another way to say this is that if you created a total clone of Scrappers (the Shmapper), but just said, "No crits anymore, we'll just give you all the damage directly into your scalar, otherwise literally exactly like a Scrapper," then you'd want to give the Shmappers AT a damage scalar of 1.4.

 

It's harder to calculate the damage that Blasters and Stalkers get beyond their damage scalar -- it's not as clean and simple as Scrapper crits.  Like, you have to go into a lot of very specific assumptions.  But if we say that Stalkers and Blasters are not crazily far behind Scrapper damage (and, for example, Stalkers get pretty comparable pylon times to Scrappers), then it stands to reason that their effective damage scalar is not way off from 1.4 either.

 

I think it's really important to understand this when talking about Sentinels.  An increase to 1.125 damage scalar -- without other bonuses -- still puts them way behind the other damage classes!

[Sunsette]

59 minutes ago, Replacement said:

0 - sure. I'm game for anything if the end result is neat.

 

1 - I would like to see a bit of a damage bump, but not a fan of going anywhere near 1.125.

 

Even with lower target caps, you are still pushing them too close to the Blaster distinction. A class that is almost a blaster will still always be compared to blaster, and never escape its shadow.

 

---

 

The big thing I have wanted more focus on is how Sentinel mez attacks deal full scale damage, and their debuffs are applied by attacking, meaning they have an action economy advantage on mez/debuffs (they do not lower their DPS to do so). This is why I keep advocating improving their secondary effects, and other means to emphasize helping the party without breaking stride.

 

Being a "master of none" usually sucks in team games because you're only doing one thing poorly at a time. Focus on doing them all simultaneously and maybe we'll have something where your party has a different expectation than "Meh blaster with meh extra debuffs."

 

1.125/0.95 = 1.18421052632

 

Increasing Sentinel scale to Blaster scale with target caps and without snipe and without even 80 foot range (forget Blaster functional 120 foot range) or real blapping powers or defiance or blaster damage buff scale will still be way behind a Blaster.

 

I tend not to like discussions of the scalar overmuch precisely because they will focus all of the attention on some very superficial fixes that will not actually make the class not suck at high levels, but it's not actually going to make it 'almost a blaster'. It's not going to fix the fact that a Beam Rifle Sent doesn't have an attack that's 40% of their attack chain with a base DPA unenhanced of over 110 with a high chance of proccing.

 

I think more care needs to be given to Sent utility (both in epic pools and base) for sure, though this requires heavy reconsideration for Energy Blast.

 

I cannot participate heavily in this topic for reasons @aethereal knows and I hope understands, but I wanted to come in to comment on this.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Sunsette

[Replacement]

4 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

I think that people really overestimate how much of the blaster damage excellence is due to their scalar, and how much is due to other things.

 

Blasters have both aim and build up.  They have defiance.  They have full-strength nukes.  They have snipes.  And they have a bunch of very attractive attacks in their secondaries.

 

Compare Sentinels to Scrappers.  Scrappers have 1.125 damage scalar, and then they have crits.  The superior ATO for Scrappers gives +50% to-hit rate with 3 PPM.  If you have just 100% global recharge (ie, much less than perma-hasten, which is 180% global recharge), then you expect to have 6 procs per minute.  Each proc lasts 5 seconds, so that's 50% uptime of your +50% crit rate.  Your base crit rate is 8% (minions)/16% (non-minions).  So during your proc uptime, you have a 58-66% chance to crit, and otherwise 8-16%.  Let's call it 60%/10%.  That's a 35% overall chance to crit.  Crits mostly double your damage, but they don't double procs or a few weird powers.

 

So all in all, your damage is increased by let's say 25% by crits for a competently slotted level 50 Scrapper.  If we translate that back into scalar, that's the equivalent of a 1.4 scalar!  Another way to say this is that if you created a total clone of Scrappers (the Shmapper), but just said, "No crits anymore, we'll just give you all the damage directly into your scalar, otherwise literally exactly like a Scrapper," then you'd want to give the Shmappers AT a damage scalar of 1.4.

 

It's harder to calculate the damage that Blasters and Stalkers get beyond their damage scalar -- it's not as clean and simple as Scrapper crits.  Like, you have to go into a lot of very specific assumptions.  But if we say that Stalkers and Blasters are not crazily far behind Scrapper damage (and, for example, Stalkers get pretty comparable pylon times to Scrappers), then it stands to reason that their effective damage scalar is not way off from 1.4 either.

 

I think it's really important to understand this when talking about Sentinels.  An increase to 1.125 damage scalar -- without other bonuses -- still puts them way behind the other damage classes!

I forgot to mention before - pretty sure what you're after is an 18.5% boost, not 13ish.

 

I will not focus on Scrapper. Their ATO is not the AT and I don't think either of us want to see this thread turn into a discussion on that (hint: I hate it).  My issue (today) is blaster. All everyone talks about is Sentinel not being good because it's not Blaster.  But we have all lived through eras of stalker vs scrapper. Scrapper vs Brute. So on and so forth. This happened because we have too many ATs that are too similar.  If you get them within spitting distance of Blaster (or even Scrapper, stupid global recharge distortions), you are setting up tomorrow's forum arguments to still be "which is stronger?" Instead of "which is a better fit for my character or playstyle?"

 

Would I be ok with a scale buff to Sentinel? Yes. Would I happily shut my mouth and test your version with an open mind? Yes, yes I would.

But my preference remains a smaller buff to their damage, and additions to the dimension of the AT beyond direct damage.

 

[aethereal]

Just now, Replacement said:

I forgot to mention before - pretty sure what you're after is an 18.5% boost, not 13ish.

 

I removed the -5% resistance debuff.

 

Just now, Replacement said:

I will not focus on Scrapper. Their ATO is not the AT and I don't think either of us want to see this thread turn into a discussion on that (hint: I hate it).

 

Wishing away the Scrapper ATO doesn't change the reality of the game.  They have it.

 

I'm not a huge fan of just how much of Scrapper performance is locked behind the ATO either.  But it exists.

 

Just now, Replacement said:

But my preference remains a smaller buff to their damage, and additions to the dimension of the AT beyond direct damage.

 

I think this is totally fair, but it's hard to come up with dimensions of the AT beyond direct damage that don't just make them "bad defenders or controllers" instead of "bad blasters."

[Naraka]

7 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

The game is easy.  You can play it successfully with vastly underperforming builds (certainly including Sentinels, my first 50 on Homecoming was an archery/ninj sent, and I soloed AVs and so forth).  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't consider how ATOs affect classes, and very specifically how they differentially affect classes.

 

Again, I didn't propose gigantic, game-changing ATOs.  I proposed broadly useful ATOs, not broadly useless ones like Sentinels have now.

 

 

Scrapper or Stalker without ATO IS NOT UNDERPERFORMING!

 

Just accept that your point of perspective to compare has shifted up.  And it has nothing to do with the game being easy, it has mostly to do with the game not changing.  YOU are the one who has changed, specifically your expectations.

 

And this isn't about Sent ATOs vs other's ATOs, this is you comparing base Sent to Scrapper with ATOs.  You shouldn't be doing that.

 

7 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

Scrappers have more of an aggro-management role than Sentinels, they are protective of the group in a few ways:

 

1.  Some scrapper sets have taunt auras.

 

2.  Just being in the middle of melee means that AoEs that get sent a scrapper's way will not tend to hit the fragile ranged classes who are keeping their distance.  Sentinels who do draw aggro will tend to draw AoEs into the fragile folks.

 

3.  I guess confront, but who cares.

 

At any rate, well-built Scrappers have ST damage that I think is comparable to or exceeds Blaster level.  Blasters have nukes and 16 target-cap AoEs.

 

Regarding the aggro auras, it's mostly a coin flip.  Most sets that have damage auras don't have taunt, if I recall correctly.  It's the buff auras that have taunt, so your Invicibility, Against All Odds and Rise to the Challenge have taunt but I don't believe things like Death Shroud, Oppressive Gloom, Blazing Aura, etc etc have taunt.  In which case, I wouldn't even grant "aggro management" as a plus to lone Scrapper unless they take some kind of pool taunt....you can do the same on Sent.

 

As far as aggro, there is more to it than merely taunting.  Debuffs, damage and threat all play a role as well as retaliation (the foe being able to hit you back for the effects you cast on it).  If you want some kind of role in that regards, why not just suggest increasing Sent's threat level?  As is, Sent can be pretty slippery since they can just hang out in the air or at range meaning retaliation is going to be minimized.  

 

That all being said, I don't think "aggro management" would be a reason not to compare Scrappers to Sents.  Sents are Scraps that get to use ranged attacks and upgraded armor sets.  

[Replacement]

11 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

 

1.125/0.95 = 1.18421052632

 

Increasing Sentinel scale to Blaster scale with target caps and without snipe and without even 80 foot range (forget Blaster functional 120 foot range) or real blapping powers or defiance or blaster damage buff scale will still be way behind a Blaster.

 

I tend not to like discussions of the scalar overmuch precisely because they will focus all of the attention on some very superficial fixes that will not actually make the class not suck at high levels, but it's not actually going to make it 'almost a blaster'. It's not going to fix the fact that a Beam Rifle Sent doesn't have an attack that's 40% of their attack chain with a base DPA unenhanced of over 110 with a high chance of proccing.

 

I think more care needs to be given to Sent utility (both in epic pools and base) for sure, though this requires heavy reconsideration for Energy Blast.

 

I cannot participate heavily in this topic for reasons @aethereal knows and I hope understands, but I wanted to come in to comment on this.

I feel like this is specifically because of my mention of "full scale" on the mez attacks, since you didn't clip it out?

 

To clarify, that isn't me talking about the Sentinel ranged modifier (0.95) -- I'm talking about the damage scale the AT modifier multiplies. Mez powers on every other class (with specific power exceptions) deal drastically reduced scale damage.  For example, Stunning Shot deals scale 0.25 damage while total focus deals 3.56 scale damage -- both on the same cooldown of 20 seconds.   

 

One thing I should actually mention is how many of those big t9 type melee attacks also have guaranteed mez. The difference between them and Sentinel is the 8s cooldown vs 20. 

 

Anyway, cheers, just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing.

[Sunsette]

No, this is about the overall damage scale. 0.95 (Sent Ranged Damage) and 1.125 (Blaster Ranged Damage) is an 13% difference (18% less 5% since aethereal is removing the base -5% resistance). You said you didn't want it to go anywhere near 1.125. I don't really like discussions about bringing it up near 1.125 either, but that's because they get derailed into thinking that's the biggest distinction between Sent and the other ranged classes. I don't really like spending all my time and credibility discussing why we should definitely boost this thing that will not actually fix our biggest issues!

 

I actually very much dislike that Sent makes no choices when they CC because it comes as part of the attack chain and I'd rather see that removed from most of them; at minimum, the Power Push dynamic is extremely perverse and effectively IO-taxed because *every* Energy Blast power has knockback. However, improving Sentinel utility (including its ability to mez) would at least help to make it better than it presently is without just being 'worse tougher blaster', and on that we seem to agree.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by Sunsette

[Replacement]

10 minutes ago, aethereal said:

I removed the -5% resistance debuff.

 

Quote

I will not focus on Scrapper. Their ATO is not the AT and I don't think either of us want to see this thread turn into a discussion on that (hint: I hate it).

 

Wishing away the Scrapper ATO doesn't change the reality of the game.  They have it.

On the first part, fair, thanks for the correction. You're treating the 0.95 modifier as 0.9975 then. 

 

On the 2nd: the moment you bring up the Scrapper ATO, you are now discussing AT potential and high end performance instead of baseline, which would mean charting a performance curve.  The ATO is miserable as a performance wedge specifically because it messes up comparisons like this. "Well x AT is better than y until you invest z amount of influence" is not something I want to have a spreadsheet battle over. 

 

As much as forumites want to believe otherwise, there are 49 other levels and a jury-is-still-out number of poor, un-setting players who want to have fun.

 

Either way, I want to restate: I would gladly test your version with an open mind.  The willingness to be wrong makes game design better.

[Sunsette]

While I do think forumites self-select from a very weird pool of players who are quite disproportionately focused on Level 50+ content, I think most Sentinel devotees will also agree that the AT performs fine 1 to 49. I'm going to immediately contradict myself here because it kinda actually sucks at Praetorian content in that range... but that's a minority of the game content which is both polished and designed to be challenging and favor aggressive play. (It's also in good company, other ATs that are more defensive also suck at Praetoria content solo.)

 

I think it is absolutely fair to bring up the Scrapper ATO and we shouldn't pretend it doesn't exist, but we need to be careful about *where* we're applying these comparisons.

 

Anyway, I'm participating more than I intended to. Hope I was helpful.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Sunsette

[aethereal]

2 minutes ago, Replacement said:

On the first part, fair, thanks for the correction. You're treating the 0.95 modifier as 0.9975 then. 

 

Yep.  As low as like 0.97ish against +4s.

 

2 minutes ago, Replacement said:

 

On the 2nd: the moment you bring up the Scrapper ATO, you are now discussing AT potential and high end performance instead of baseline, which would mean charting a performance curve.  The ATO is miserable as a performance wedge specifically because it messes up comparisons like this. "Well x AT is better than y until you invest z amount of influence" is not something I want to have a spreadsheet battle over. 

 

You can buy the ATO for 100 merits or about 8M inf.  You don't need the rest of the set, you don't need a complex build.  It will make a huge difference in performance even if you use it at 3PPM with no global recharge.  Players in SGs I was in who didn't make "builds," who mostly used common IOs or SOs still bought the ATOs for their AT, with merits.

 

I also want to be extremely clear to both you and @Naraka:  Do you think that well-build Scrappers with the ATO make Blasters have laughably bad damage?  Are blasters obsolete because Scrappers are the only kings of DPS, once we're talking about the kind of play that includes ATOs?

 

That's not my holistic impression.  Mine is that at a given level of build sophistication, blasters, scrappers, and stalkers are all fairly close to each other in terms of performance.  If anything, people tend to think that blasters are a little ahead of scrappers, in environments that don't highly value mitigation (soloing TFs at hard difficulties, for exaample).

 

So it's very convenient to use Scrappers for mathematical comparisons.  Their mechanics are simple compared to Stalker or Blaster mechanics.  But if we accept that Blaster ~= Scrapper ~= Stalker, then comparisons between Sents and Scrappers are implicitly comparisons between Sents and Stalkers or Blasters.