Kinetics vs Empathy

[drgantz]

Several people have told me that Kinetics is superior to Empathy.  The only problem is that many Kin abilities only work around a radius.  I've had many group members fall when I played a Kin, probably because they weren't within the radius.

Since many Emp abilities are ranged, I think than Emp is better, at least in healing.

[Dark Dove]

Hot take: The hard truth is that Empathy is a training wheels powerset, and most of the powers in it become marginally useful by the time you reach the mid-20's in level where everyone is starting to get things slotted.  It's very good at the training wheels stuff, and Adrenaline boost and Fortitude is always going to be good, but if you're going to go with empathy you'd better bring a second powerset that's well slotted, because most of your powers will start to feel completely unnecessary the further you go into the content and the more advanced your teammates are.

 

Kinetics can heal enough and also brings debuffs with it, which Empathy just can't do, and the buffs it brings are just as good if not much much better, short of again, healing/regen.

 

There's no reason you can't play both though, and see for yourself what you enjoy the most. You've got essentially infinite character slots. Enjoy. Nothing is bad/unplayable, everything is viable, have a good time with it.

[SeraphimKensai]

Empathy is far superior in PvP. Outside of PvP, just about any other support set wins out especially after players IO out their toons.

 

Going to your point of any group members falling" that's on them. It's everyone's own responsibility to understand what they can and can't handle, and in those situations where they can't handle it learning to prioritize important targets and also learning how their teammates are able to assist.

 

If you go Kin, maybe look at Sonic as well to effectively maximize your team's DPS, as a dead target prevents them from attacking your team.

[Nemu]

I challenge the notion that sonic is the best pairing for kin.  On paper +dmg and -res looks great, in practice the two powersets combined have no playstyle synergy.

 

One wants you to be at range to apply the cone -res/knockdown and the other wants to be in melee range for heal/FS. Animation time matters - FS is not that fast and neither is howl, you realistically only have enough time to use one of those powers before mobs all die from fast moving teams. Realistically the -Res will only be really noticeable on hard targets and in those fights you often don't have the benefit of a saturated FS. If I wanted to provide debuff/support against those types of targets /kin wouldn't be my choice pick in the first place.

 

I'd much prefer a blast set with very few to no cones to pair with kin. I like the idea of irradiate with both -res procs followed up by FS, that has a lot more synergy than howl/FS both from a playstyle perspective and also from a build perspective, as the -def affords you the luxury of skipping ACC slotting on some kin powers.

 

Empathy has a low barrier for entry but I also challenge the idea that it's a training wheel set. The skill ceiling is pretty high with Emps and good emps are far and in between. Most are lazy and don't understand game mechanics/mob composition/team dynamics. Emps are not like brutes where you can derp your way to 50, not learn anything about the game, and still do ok standing next to someone that knows what they are doing. The difference between a skilled EMP and unskilled EMP is stark. against content where that kind of support matters.

[drgantz]

Thank you for  your replies.  They were very good.

I especially liked the comments of /Sonic vs /Rad because I often think of which secondary to  use.

I once had a group in which we were unable to defeat the final boss.  After a long time of attacking, we took down its health a little bit, and then it healed back.  We had two sonics in the group.  Finally, we retreated and someone switch his toon with a /Rad Def.  Then we defeated the boss fairly quickly.

[Dark Dove]

18 minutes ago, Nemu said:

I also challenge the idea that it's a training wheel set

 

Okay you win, it was a hot take and I don't care enough to defend the position.  It's not a training wheels set.  You should answer the OP though.  Emp vs Kin?

[Psyonico]

38 minutes ago, Dark Dove said:

 

Okay you win, it was a hot take and I don't care enough to defend the position.  It's not a training wheels set. 

I guess it depends on your definition of "training wheels set".  A decent emp will keep a bad team alive better than a decent kin would, so in that sense, it's training wheels *for the team* not for the defender.

 

If the team understands how to play, a Kin will do better, because, as said before, dead enemies deal no damage, and kin is better at making things dead.  If a team knows how to play with a kin (ie: stay in melee when low on health) then a kin can do a decent job keeping the team alive.

[Nemu]

Sure.

 

OP seems to gravitate towards protecting the team. Empathy wins. I prefer /empathy controller as that allows you to double up on your ability to protect the team. I have an illusion/emp, drop your control tools, then you can start buffing/healing. It's busier than you'd think if you are not a lazy emp.

 

Empathy doesn't contribute much offensively in terms of direct debuffs. Your scenario with the AV, it was not a rad blast defender that helped you over, it was a rad emissions defender. 

 

Empathy also doesn't have as many feel bad moments as Kin. Timing is everything with Kin, a late FS means dead mobs and no buff and that can happen quite often on fast paced teams if you don't telegraph your moves. In a way it encourages a very sloppy playstyle because you always want to be in the next mob for saturated FS which means you are among the first to take off to the next mob. But if you are running ahead while the rest of the team is cleaning up what's the point in teaming?

 

I'd argue that empathy is a busier set than Kin because competent emps will constantly be buffing. If you don't like the idea of refreshing clear mind on those without mez protection every 90 seconds and handing out fortitude every 10-20 seconds to different teammates, gauging which teammates benefit from your buffs the most and keeping them buffed, maybe play something else. Dark and Rad are good alternatives that don't have click buffs and has a good mix of offense and defense.

[roleki]

Perhaps you could split the difference and roll an Electrical Affinity character.  EA gives you the ability to send heals and buffs to individuals as they need them, and as a bonus, everyone in their vicinity.   It's an excellent set for handling frenetic teams that seem to value elbow room over survival, but works just as well on a team that's moving in a pack.

[Bastille Boy]

In a random endgame pickup group that is steamrolling things, Empathy is likely to be less useful than many other support sets. The heals aren't needed, nor is the +def component of Fortitude, since most players build most toons for softcapped defenses. The other four healing-focused sets (Pain, Thermal, EA, and Nature) provide a +res buff, which is more widely useful, since most toons do not have hardcapped resistances.

 

That said, there are at least three scenarios when a good emp could be quite useful in the PVE late game, and possibly better than other healing sets:

1. A team with toons that have resistance-based armor sets and haven't capped their defenses
2. A team with another emp (Green Machine strategy)
3. Missions with lots of defense debuffs

Of course Kinetics is very good.

[Doomguide2005]

      In a lot of ways this is "Hello Apples meet Oranges" which on many levels is what makes Defenders such an interesting AT for me.  The AT is an utterly wonderful fruit basket more so than most other ATs.  An Empath and a Kin do their thing very differently but both do support very well.

 

     And if you want to see an Empath go 😳 watch a Kin hit a bunch of teammates in a rough melee fight with a Power Boosted Transfusion.  Yeah the Empath does healing in general far better but ... weeeee!

[Dahkness]

Fulcrum. 

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Dahkness said:

Fulcrum. 

Adrenaline Boost!  😜

[JayboH]

On 7/7/2021 at 11:20 PM, Doomguide2005 said:

Adrenaline Boost!  😜

Crack I mean Speed Boost

[Doomguide2005]

36 minutes ago, JayboH said:

Crack I mean Speed Boost

     Hah! I'll see your Speed Boost and raise you a Regeneration Aura.

 

     And these last few silly posts shows the more serious differences between the sets.  Empathy is primarily about mitigation and recovery (of both health and endurance).   The defensive side of the equation with a bit of offensive buffs to damage and recharge added in.

      Kinetics is more about the offensive side of the battle boosting damage and recharge with a side of damage and regeneration debuffs.

    And this plays into the current meta of MOAR damage as us Incarnates have a really good handle, typically, on much of what Empathy provides.  Meanwhile Kins are essentially playing right into the whole MOAR damage meta of the endgame.

     What I find ironic is Kins provide pretty much none of what makes so many other defender sets desired in endgame.  No resistance debuffs and minimal (comparatively) regeneration debuff, yet still very desired because, you know, MOAR damage 😁.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Typos

[SwitchFade]

Kin...

 

Fulcrum

Heal

End recovery

Speed boost

ID

Siphon speed

repel, if you know how to KB to KD and recharge proc io

 

 

Seriously, not even a contest. Kin defenders will be significantly better at not only keeping the team safe, but take any team and transforming them into a wrecking ball, at all levels. A kin will be insta-invited at any time.

 

And get all this by lvl 32? Keep it all exemp down to 27? Yeah. Kin.

 

[KITANYA]

The Economics Professor has spoken! 🙂

Edited July 18, 2021 by KITANYA