Hide, learn me on this.

[Snarky]

So unless I am wearing really squeaky shoes Hide is not working the way I thought it would.  I had assumed it was "Invisible" until I attacked.  There are level 1 minion snakes on Mercy that are like "What the F you looking at hidey stalker?" and come over and attack me....

[Vulpoid]

Silly question, but do you have a damage aura on? Any area of effect Stun, Immob, etc.?

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Vulpoid said:

Silly question, but do you have a damage aura on? Any area of effect Stun, Immob, etc.?

nope running invul with only hide and one non toggle dam reduction going

 

in some bank missions i was running (my 50 alt farmer acct) the farmer running two damage autas.  guards and longbow run past the farmer to find me hidden in a vault dead end and wail on the hidden stalker.  new to stalkers but seems like a crap power.

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Snarky

[Hedgefund]

That sounds like an ambush or (don't take this the wrong way) are you certain you have hide on?  Nothing has ever been able to spot me (and I've played all the Stalkers) in Mercy but maybe that "jump into a snake hole" mission where a bunch of snakes pop out of the ground when you arrive at the door.

 

The bank is definitely rife with targeted ambushes.  Such is life with mayhems.  Or anything with ambushes frankly.

[Snarky]

11 minutes ago, Hedgefund said:

That sounds like an ambush or (don't take this the wrong way) are you certain you have hide on?  Nothing has ever been able to spot me (and I've played all the Stalkers) in Mercy but maybe that "jump into a snake hole" mission where a bunch of snakes pop out of the ground when you arrive at the door.

 

The bank is definitely rife with targeted ambushes.  Such is life with mayhems.  Or anything with ambushes frankly.

i get what you mean about the targeted ambushes okay.

 

But i was running kalinda/burke/mongoose missions and getting spotted (and attacked) by snakes while i had the power Hide activated and running with message "Hidden" up while inside missions.

 

not sure what to expect from this power as i level, but if level 1 minions are agro on me while stealthed i do not expect much

[Hedgefund]

I just made an invul Stalker to get to the Snake mission.  I could stand in front of snakes in the mission and do dance emotes... nothing.  When I got the "jump into a snake hole" mission, I got to the door, no reaction.  Turned hide off, then a couple snakes popped up.

 

I dunno what to tell you.  I'm not saying you're not experiencing what you say you're experiencing, I just haven't.

[Snarky]

20 minutes ago, Hedgefund said:

I just made an invul Stalker to get to the Snake mission.  I could stand in front of snakes in the mission and do dance emotes... nothing.  When I got the "jump into a snake hole" mission, I got to the door, no reaction.  Turned hide off, then a couple snakes popped up.

 

I dunno what to tell you.  I'm not saying you're not experiencing what you say you're experiencing, I just haven't.

as i play i am realizing there is a difference between "hidden" and "no one knows you are there"  if i assassin strike a target and use a jet pack to fly off, and become "hidden" their buddy is still pissed as hell.  i think with the large groups of snakes i may have been encountering part of the "linked group" of someone i killed.  but that is a guess.  at the time it did not seem that way.

 

between the targeted ambushes in the bank and the attackers who are part of the same group that may be the entire explanation.  but again, just guessing.

 

Does Hide need Invisibility in later game content?  The power specifically says it stacks.  I really wanted to run a stealth character.

[Hedgefund]

For PVE, Stalker Hide is more than enough.  There exist mobs that say "peek-a-boo, I see you" regardless of anything on top of Hide (Rularuu eyeballs, Rikti drones for example) but everybody else will be oblivious with just Hide.  Apparently in PVP it makes a difference but when it comes to PVP talk I have to bow out.

 

And yes, if you attack a dude and even if you go back into hide, the rest of his pod is going to know where you are unless you placate (single target) or defeat them.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Hedgefund

[StrikerFox]

51 minutes ago, Hedgefund said:

For PVE, Stalker Hide is more than enough.  There exist mobs that say "peek-a-boo, I see you" regardless of anything on top of Hide (Rularuu eyeballs, Rikti drones for example) but everybody else will be oblivious with just Hide.  Apparently in PVP it makes a difference but when it comes to PVP talk I have to bow out.

 

Yeah, Hide is good enough for everything in PVE. There are some enemies that will see you no matter how much stealth bonuses you have. Rikti Drones, Crey Snipers and Lambda Turrets for example. Though these enemies can be Placate to avoid detection.

 

Stealth is countered by Perception. The higher perception a player has will allow them to see hidden Stalkers in PVP. Things like Tactics, Focused Accuracy, Rectified Reticle IO etc, gives perception bonuses. That's why PVP Stalkers usually stack Hide + Stealth + Celerity IO to help counter high Perception.

 

https://cityofheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Stealth_and_Perception

 

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

as i play i am realizing there is a difference between "hidden" and "no one knows you are there"  if i assassin strike a target and use a jet pack to fly off, and become "hidden" their buddy is still pissed as hell.  i think with the large groups of snakes i may have been encountering part of the "linked group" of someone i killed.  but that is a guess.  at the time it did not seem that way.

 

If you attacked a target in a mob, Hide won't really work while the mob still has aggro. If you go back into Hide while having aggro, that mob can still find you but you will have the higher defense bonus.

 

The way you thought Hide works, I actually love that idea. Assassinate a target, go back into Hide, enemy targets know you're there and actively search, but can't detect you until you kill again. It would work similar to the Arachnos "Blind" power. Can hear the fight around you, see teammate's hp dropping, but utterly helpless to do anything about it without yellow inspira.

[Shred Monkey]

Hide doesn't shed agro... that's what placate does.

 

 

[Snarky]

It just happened again on a cargo ship full of wyvern.  irritating.  level 8 mission from Dr Creed.  I killed one two guys and moved to the next room.  but i know that is a 'soft' mission divider not a separate area.  and was being attacked (damn arrows) while 'hidden'  I am 60% sure it is because they were all part of the same wyvern pod.  just damned hard to calculate.

[StrikerFox]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

It just happened again on a cargo ship full of wyvern.  irritating.  level 8 mission from Dr Creed.  I killed one two guys and moved to the next room.  but i know that is a 'soft' mission divider not a separate area.  and was being attacked (damn arrows) while 'hidden'  I am 60% sure it is because they were all part of the same wyvern pod.  just damned hard to calculate.

 

There's like a 10s delay before going back into Hide, after attacking. You want to stealth through another room after fighting, you gotta wait. 

[Onlyasandwich]

Hidden and stealth are separate things, though the hide power generates both.

 

If you want to easily know when you are actively stealthed, monitor stealth radius in you combat attributes.

 

A quote from the wiki that may be helpful:

"

Despite the rather misleading name, the Hidden status only means that the Stalker is poised to deliver stronger or more reliable critical hits. Hidden mode and Stealth aren't directly linked, although they often occur together. A Stalker can be Hidden even if an enemy has enough Perception to see him.

Stalkers have two ways to become Hidden. The Hide power continually grants Hidden status, though that status suppresses for eight seconds each time the Stalker uses an attack power (except for missed Assassin's Strikes), suffers damage from an enemy (falling doesn't count), or clicks a mission object. Using the Placate power on any target also puts the Stalker in Hidden mode, no matter who he attacks, for a fixed period of ten seconds

Edited July 12, 2021 by Onlyasandwich

[Snarky]

8 hours ago, Onlyasandwich said:

Hidden and stealth are separate things, though the hide power generates both.

 

If you want to easily know when you are actively stealthed, monitor stealth radius in you combat attributes.

 

A quote from the wiki that may be helpful:

"

Despite the rather misleading name, the Hidden status only means that the Stalker is poised to deliver stronger or more reliable critical hits. Hidden mode and Stealth aren't directly linked, although they often occur together. A Stalker can be Hidden even if an enemy has enough Perception to see him.

Stalkers have two ways to become Hidden. The Hide power continually grants Hidden status, though that status suppresses for eight seconds each time the Stalker uses an attack power (except for missed Assassin's Strikes), suffers damage from an enemy (falling doesn't count), or clicks a mission object. Using the Placate power on any target also puts the Stalker in Hidden mode, no matter who he attacks, for a fixed period of ten seconds

THank you.  I will now monitor stealth radius for constant feedback.  I am also taking Placate.  As a dedicated solo character that has got to help, plus I want to learn how to most effectively use it.

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

THank you.  I will now monitor stealth radius for constant feedback.  I am also taking Placate.  As a dedicated solo character that has got to help, plus I want to learn how to most effectively use it.

 

Don't monitor stealth radius.  I'm not sure what that wiki quote is on about but the "meter" (which determines whether you get a critical hit from Hide) and the stealth radius effect of Hide are both Suppressed by the same conditions: AttackedOther, Damaged, and MissionClickObject.   Both for 8s so the Hidden status will appear exactly when the suppression ends on both stealth and meter.  You can rely on "Hidden" to tell you "My stealth radius is up again".   Incidentally, the translucent visual effect is also governed by the same mechanics, though it is less noticeable than the big green "Hidden" text.

 

The wiki is probably just saying what others here have been saying.  You can still be seen by certain high percep enemies like Rikti Drones and Rularuu Eyeballs.   You can still be attacked if an enemy is already aggro to you or becomes so because of killing a linked ally or because they are a player-targeted ambush sent after you.  That's it.   If you're being attacked now, it's not because something saw through Hide. 

 

As to Placate, it's not entirely useless but... don't take it to obtain another critical hit.  Whatever damage you gain from that has already been lost in the animation time of Placate.  Take it only to use it as a defensive control.  It will make an enemy stop attacking you.  That can be useful if you get in over your head and need some relief.  Maybe you aggroed a second nearby group and you can placate its LT/Boss while you mop up a little more.   Still, it's uses are limited and power slots are precious in the lower levels.  Almost anything else you chose from your primary, secondary, or power pools, would be better at level 12 than Placate.  Unless you just like the "Jedi Mind Trick" aesthetic of it THAT much.

 

Oddly enough, I have lately found the opposite power Presence:Provoke, more useful on my Stalkers.  One issue you'll face is stuff running from you.  Stalkers have even lower threat level than Scrappers and no aggro or taunt auras (in most cases, I think) to help keep things near you while you deliver them to the beyond.   Provoke helps there.  But it's also mid-build or later material, I usually find.  And you may find you don't mind chasing your food a little and that's one more power slot for something more useful.

[Snarky]

17 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Don't monitor stealth radius.  I'm not sure what that wiki quote is on about but the "meter" (which determines whether you get a critical hit from Hide) and the stealth radius effect of Hide are both Suppressed by the same conditions: AttackedOther, Damaged, and MissionClickObject.   Both for 8s so the Hidden status will appear exactly when the suppression ends on both stealth and meter.  You can rely on "Hidden" to tell you "My stealth radius is up again".   Incidentally, the translucent visual effect is also governed by the same mechanics, though it is less noticeable than the big green "Hidden" text.

 

The wiki is probably just saying what others here have been saying.  You can still be seen by certain high percep enemies like Rikti Drones and Rularuu Eyeballs.   You can still be attacked if an enemy is already aggro to you or becomes so because of killing a linked ally or because they are a player-targeted ambush sent after you.  That's it.   If you're being attacked now, it's not because something saw through Hide. 

 

As to Placate, it's not entirely useless but... don't take it to obtain another critical hit.  Whatever damage you gain from that has already been lost in the animation time of Placate.  Take it only to use it as a defensive control.  It will make an enemy stop attacking you.  That can be useful if you get in over your head and need some relief.  Maybe you aggroed a second nearby group and you can placate its LT/Boss while you mop up a little more.   Still, it's uses are limited and power slots are precious in the lower levels.  Almost anything else you chose from your primary, secondary, or power pools, would be better at level 12 than Placate.  Unless you just like the "Jedi Mind Trick" aesthetic of it THAT much.

 

Oddly enough, I have lately found the opposite power Presence:Provoke, more useful on my Stalkers.  One issue you'll face is stuff running from you.  Stalkers have even lower threat level than Scrappers and no aggro or taunt auras (in most cases, I think) to help keep things near you while you deliver them to the beyond.   Provoke helps there.  But it's also mid-build or later material, I usually find.  And you may find you don't mind chasing your food a little and that's one more power slot for something more useful.

Yeah i like the Jedi mind power and i want to learn it.  I only have so many powers available in primary and secondary.  I will be jumping from 9-14 once i get 5-9 content complete.  Placate should slap on fine.  Then i can learn its uses.  As a solo mission +0/x1 i am sure it will have a number of niche uses for getting through stuff and will make a fun mini game for a while.  Then i can decide if i want it in the future

 

thanks for the feedback.  I really appreciate all the great input here

[SwitchFade]

Ah, the fun of redside.

 

Hide is all you need. No matter where you are though, if you aggro, they follow 

 

End game hide works beautifully.

[StrikerFox]

Instead of monitoring stealth radius, just look at your character. A hidden Stalker is very translucent, unhidden Stalkers aren't.

 

[ZemX]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

I will be jumping from 9-14 once i get 5-9 content

 

If it's not in your plan already, at level 8 Build Up one-slotted with the Gauss proc and at level 10  Assassin's Mark ATO proc in any ST attack.  Stalker's Guile ATO proc in Assassin Strike.

 

Then enjoy all the extra Build Ups you get to fire whenever Assassin's Mark procs, which can happen on any attack you use: primary, secondary, pool... anything.  And the Gauss proc should be 90% chance every time you fire Build Up to give you an extra boost for the first few seconds.  Enough for your next attack to be extra-boosted.  If there's a downside to DM/Invuln it's that you don't have a lot of AoE.  ANY attack can proc Assassin's Mark, so the more targets you can hit, the better.  You might want to plan at least one more AoE from a pool or epic. 

 

Darkness Mastery isn't among the most popular epics... but it does have THREE very sizeable cone attacks that can hit up to 10 targets each.  Something to consider.  Anything that hits enemies, even powers that don't do damage, can proc Assassin's Mark and give you another Build Up.

[Snarky]

I run Darkness epics a lot and like them.  Thanks for the info

[1seanv]

I always take placate, both for control and critical hit on demand.

 

With a Gaussians proc in build up and hide proc in as, you can bu+AS 1 mob, reside proc, crit total focus another mob, placate crit bonesmasher the 3rd, and then crit AS the 4th. Potentially 4 dead mobs in 4 hits.

 

 

 

 

[Onlyasandwich]

On 7/12/2021 at 12:29 PM, StrikerFox said:

Instead of monitoring stealth radius,

 

I mentioned this because I know some people like to change power effects so they can see their character, and this can be an easier to process visual cue with all of the effects flying around and different environments.

 

As to @ZemX, it's true that most often Hidden status and stealthed state will coincide when using the Hide power, but there are exceptions (placate, ATO procs). It is nice to rely on external factors for verification in order to avoid potential confusion, and the stealth radius attribute does the trick.

 

As for placate, you may find it useful when solo if your secondary isn't cutting it in tough situations. I would think of it as a control power first, with the happy bonus of adding crits.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Onlyasandwich

[tidge]

On 7/12/2021 at 2:11 PM, ZemX said:

 

If it's not in your plan already, at level 8 Build Up one-slotted with the Gauss proc and at level 10  Assassin's Mark ATO proc in any ST attack.  Stalker's Guile ATO proc in Assassin Strike.

 

FWIW, while leveling up I don't recommend putting precious slots into Build Up until you get to higher levels because the Gaussian's set can only be slotted at a higher level (21?). Once you are high enough, go for it.

[ZemX]

11 hours ago, tidge said:

FWIW, while leveling up I don't recommend putting precious slots into Build Up until you get to higher levels because the Gaussian's set can only be slotted at a higher level (21?). Once you are high enough, go for it.

 

Thanks for the correction.  I forgot to look up the minimum for Gauss.  Also, not suggesting adding slots.  Keep it at the default 1 slot with either recharge or end redux until 18.  Then slot the Gauss proc.  Stalkers with Assassin's Mark ATO proc don't really need to devote any additional slots to Build Up unless they plan to slot more of the Gauss set for the bonuses.  Assassin's Mark will usually recharge Build Up before its natural recharge time elapses, even if you slot recharge reduction in Build Up.

[ZemX]

15 hours ago, Onlyasandwich said:

As to @ZemX, it's true that most often Hidden status and stealthed state will coincide when using the Hide power, but there are exceptions (placate, ATO procs). It is nice to rely on external factors for verification in order to avoid potential confusion, and the stealth radius attribute does the trick.

 

True, but still unnecessary.  There is never a case where the screen says "Hidden" and your stealth radius is NOT up, is my point.  So if you just wait for that before running up to the next spawn, you'll be fine.  It's always worked for me and I play almost exclusively Stalkers.  The few cases you're talking about are ones where you can re-enter stealth SOONER than the 8s suppression window in Hide.  Still, if you wait to see "Hidden"...  you are safe.  You just might in a very few cases be waiting a few seconds longer than you need to.  But that's it.

 

It's going to be rare that you Placate and then wonder if you are Hidden.  You'll usually use it in a fight to control one enemy while you fight others.  Whether you are hidden or not after the Placate doesn't much matter in terms of what you do next unless your plan was to Placate and then immediately run through another spawn of enemies that hasn't seen you yet.  Same for the Hide proc.  When it happens, it's usually just bonus crit damage.  It's not something you are watching and then making decisions based on.  If you happen to end a fight with a quick AS, you'll immediately be stealthed.  The only time this has ever tripped me up (and it's super rare) is when I was leading a hostage with Hide off, fought a group, ended with AS, and ran off leaving the hostage to wonder where I'd disappeared to.    It was funny, but it didn't really cause me a problem.