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I should add that the first ward arcs, though challenging, thus far have dropped one DO I could use, but the rest have been all Science SOs that my character uses. A nice Heal, a couple of accuracies, recharges, etc. As well as numerous other Common IOs (at level 25 that I still can't use - 2 bars away). 

So, I've made a new alt, Heuristic Hero, that's now parked in First Ward towards the recipe bonus day job. 

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On 7/11/2021 at 7:14 PM, Ukase said:

But I only had a level 10 IO in Twilight Grasp, and it missed at a most inopportune time

So am i wrong in that DOs at that level are better than IOs?  Especially if you auto update the enhancement?  I stopped using level 10 ios last perma death toon cause thats how it looked to me.

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56 minutes ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

So am i wrong in that DOs at that level are better than IOs?  Especially if you auto update the enhancement?  I stopped using level 10 ios last perma death toon cause thats how it looked to me.

 

You're not wrong, but Ukase's not allowing auto update so even if he had a DO to replace it with he wouldn't as then he has to hope another drops in the next three levels or that something better comes along.  It's not worth worrying about the ~2% difference in strength.  He crafted that level 10 IO from a dropped recipe using dropped salvage and now he doesn't have to worry about that slot going red.  He can wait to replace it with another common IO recipe that's better later on.  It will be a 20 or 25 probably either a common or set IO depending on what drops.  Not a DO.

 

I have to say, this challenge is brutal even without the permadeath.  It looks like Ukase's turned the corner a bit on enhancements though by 20 with the IO recipe drops.  That's huge in something like this because if he's shown anything with this it's that standard origin invention drops are unable to keep up with leveling.  The RNG is a killer.  The drop rate is already slow, but the drop rate of usable enhancements by a given player is miniscule.   From what I saw, it was usual to fill an enhancement tray tab with drops and get maybe 0-2 enhancements matching player origin and then be lucky if even one of them was a type you could use.  I trashed many tech slow, stun, range, etc. enhancements that my tech defender just didn't have powers to use or, as in the case of range, didn't really need more than I needed even the paltry inf I could get selling it.

 

It's not how it was intended to be played, of course.  The idea was that unusable enhancements would be vendored for cash and then usable enhancements bought with the proceeds.  But it's interesting to see how badly broken the drops are if you had to rely on them.  Origin-based enhancements weren't the original devs' best idea.

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5 hours ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

So am i wrong in that DOs at that level are better than IOs?  Especially if you auto update the enhancement?  I stopped using level 10 ios last perma death toon cause thats how it looked to me.

At that low level, you are not wrong. A DO is better than an IO. (until a few levels when the DO no longer boosts anything) 
The only reason I had an IO in it is because it was the only thing that dropped that I could put in it. 

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3 hours ago, ZemX said:

I have to say, this challenge is brutal even without the permadeath.  It looks like Ukase's turned the corner a bit on enhancements though by 20 with the IO recipe drops.  That's huge in something like this because if he's shown anything with this it's that standard origin invention drops are unable to keep up with leveling.  The RNG is a killer.  The drop rate is already slow, but the drop rate of usable enhancements by a given player is miniscule.   From what I saw, it was usual to fill an enhancement tray tab with drops and get maybe 0-2 enhancements matching player origin and then be lucky if even one of them was a type you could use.  I trashed many tech slow, stun, range, etc. enhancements that my tech defender just didn't have powers to use or, as in the case of range, didn't really need more than I needed even the paltry inf I could get selling it.

 

It's not how it was intended to be played, of course.  The idea was that unusable enhancements would be vendored for cash and then usable enhancements bought with the proceeds.  But it's interesting to see how badly broken the drops are if you had to rely on them.  Origin-based enhancements weren't the original devs' best idea.

Oops, I didn't even see where you'd already answered the question for me. 

I will tell you one thing that has opened my eyes A LOT. 
Praetorian content seems to drop specific to your origin. So, I intend to try Praetoria out in the beginning and see how much of a difference it makes. 

But, what will continue to be the very roughest part will be the end mod drops. The end mod enhancement drop rates are supposedly 1/175 !!!! 
At least, that's what the paragon wiki has. The HC devs might have changed it, but I seriously doubt it. I could run my fire farmer through a dreck map 5 times, and I'd be lucky to get one of them. They are more rare than a purple recipe if you ask me. Even the end mod recipes are quite rare. 

So, I know whatever character undergoes this challenge it will most certainly have to be something with an inherent stamina boost of some kind - either AM as the case is with the rad defender/corruptor/controller, or possibly rad armor, or Bio armor. 

There may be another powerset, but I can't think of what it would be. Blasters with their inherent at level 10 are quite capable of managing endurance - but only with end mod IOs and the nifty procs. Wait...truth be told, I don't think I've ever played a blaster without those nifty procs and end mod IOs...so who knows? My guess would be that it would be harder than I'd like it to be. 

I have a Staff/Bio brute in the wings to re-take on this challenge - in praetoria. It's parked in First Ward now for the recipe bonus day job. 

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2 hours ago, Ukase said:

At that low level, you are not wrong. A DO is better than an IO. (until a few levels when the DO no longer boosts anything) 

Yeah i hadnt seen the no updating enhancements part of this.  Or buying them from vendors.  Ouch.  Ive got a few toons making permadeath runs, no temps, no ae etc.  But i dont think i could do that.

 

That said i think my toons that went deep would be equally good at yours.  I have had best success with MMs and VEATs.

Edited by RageusQuitus2
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An MM or Veat is something I hadn't even considered. 

The Veat - the toggles on it would be sooo end heavy. As for the MM...interesting. I'm in the middle of playing one for the second time. The first time was on live, and I'd gotten to level 17 before the servers shut down. I may try one, but which kind...I dunno. I find the robots, thugs and demons to be so hideous, I don't think I could stomach it for such an investment of time. I honestly have no idea how they caught on...but different strokes and all that. 

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3 hours ago, Ukase said:

I have a Staff/Bio brute in the wings to re-take on this challenge - in praetoria. It's parked in First Ward now for the recipe bonus day job. 

 

I haven't played the challenge for a few days.  The early levels are pretty discouraging.  But I created a Kat/Nin Scrapper last week and got him to around 8 I think in Praetoria.  I did not notice any better drops.  At least not yet anyway.  The drops were definitely not always my origin whether they were street sweeping or in mission and a couple SO rewards ended up being the wrong origin as well.  He might currently be doing even slightly worse than my Rad/Rad Redside Defender.

 

Ninjitsu on Scrappers, unlike Stalkers, has a +End click power.  But yeah, Staff/Bio should have no endurance issues either with the added recovery of bio and the endurance discount stance of Staff. 

 

I'm a huge fan of Staff Fighting myself but I went with Katana for much the same reason as I did Rad Blast on the Defender, for the -def debuffs to alleviate poor accuracy slotting.  Also Katana has 1.05x base accuracy.  It's not a lot, but it helps with that initial hit and then the def debuffs take over.  Also, Kat has the +def for melee/lethal attack.  Staff has it as an AoE cone, but it' slightly weaker and longer recharge.  Not as easily stackable.  Still good though.  Staff has way better AoE than Kat which is why I normally prefer it to Katana/Ninja Blade.

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Veat inherent isnt great but it does provide end relief.  To be fair i did my perma death runs 3 boxing (i have no friends lol).  So veat with two rad MMs and double AM was slick).

 

Mms take time.  Gotta set up macros and keybinds to really shine imho.  Lol and you shot down my 3 favorite sets.  Demon bots and thugs are alot of fun.  But once you find a set you like and configure it.... 

Edited by RageusQuitus2
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Well, if someone had told me a rad/dark defender would fare better than an elec/bio scrapper, I wouldn't have believed it. Died at level 7. 

A few lessons learned in this run, though. There's a day job in First Ward in the Free Fire zone that boosts ToHit and damage and range. So, that's where the next one is going to be parked. 
And a new rule: if I die at level 1, I don't have to re-roll, just carry on. This is a maddeningly frustrating task. I hate that the rad/dark got defeated. It was doing fairly well. A lot more fun to play than I thought it would be. 

This next time, I think I'll go with elec/bio brute. I will sorely miss the ATOs, for sure. But maybe with more hp, it'll be just the difference. 

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4 hours ago, Ukase said:

Well, if someone had told me a rad/dark defender would fare better than an elec/bio scrapper, I wouldn't have believed it. Died at level 7. 

A few lessons learned in this run, though. There's a day job in First Ward in the Free Fire zone that boosts ToHit and damage and range. So, that's where the next one is going to be parked. 
And a new rule: if I die at level 1, I don't have to re-roll, just carry on. This is a maddeningly frustrating task. I hate that the rad/dark got defeated. It was doing fairly well. A lot more fun to play than I thought it would be. 

This next time, I think I'll go with elec/bio brute. I will sorely miss the ATOs, for sure. But maybe with more hp, it'll be just the difference. 

i would suggest energy/will if yoiu are going brute.  with thoughtful pulls nothing should put that down....unless, wait, you are in Gold?   arghhhh noooooooo

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11 hours ago, Ukase said:

And a new rule: if I die at level 1, I don't have to re-roll, just carry on. This is a maddeningly frustrating task. I hate that the rad/dark got defeated. It was doing fairly well. A lot more fun to play than I thought it would be. 

How about debt=delete.  Players don't get any debt until after level 10 . . . or is it at level 10 . . . one of those!

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i know i could level a SS/Inv Brute on Redside without dying until at least posy 20s using just DOs. I almost want to do your challenge with a Energy/Invul Brute Redside.  i do not think I am going to, but I think it would work.  I think Blueside would be easier, except I have the story arcs memorized Redside....

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Question on your teaming rule.  Your logic is that 'no one wants your gimped toon on a team"  okay.  But what about DFB?  People regularly run 4 of those with nearly unenhanced toons and get 4 major buffs that last until level 22...  If your rule is "No teaming to make it as hardcore as possible", then okay. But the logic does not hold up regarding DFB teams who tend to start at level 1-2 and end as late as 12-14 (I have done this, used to regular) with only dropped enhancers.

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Well, for me @Snarky, there's only so many times I can do a dfb. It's just so dull after all these times. And while I don't discount that the buffs and SOs would be useful, I wonder about the utility of the first couple as you'd outlevel them, I think, by the time you'd finish. 

To me, the adventure of being solo has more benefits than penalties. Up until this challenge, I've never tasted defeat solo. If I thought it were overly difficult (and not interesting) I wouldnt' do it. So, I say, suit yourself. To me, I literally have ..almost 1000 very rares in my base, all crafted and ready to go, should the HC devs ever take a nerf-bat to afk-farming (thus the supply of purples gets reduced, prices of then would creep upward). I just have nothing in game to get excited about, except during this challenge when an enhancement or IO recipe I can use drops. Not to mention, the XP in DFB is ridiculous. A little too good if you ask me. I'd just as soon avoid it. The only reason I do it now is for badges. 

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3 hours ago, Ukase said:

Well, for me @Snarky, there's only so many times I can do a dfb. It's just so dull after all these times. And while I don't discount that the buffs and SOs would be useful, I wonder about the utility of the first couple as you'd outlevel them, I think, by the time you'd finish. 

To me, the adventure of being solo has more benefits than penalties. Up until this challenge, I've never tasted defeat solo. If I thought it were overly difficult (and not interesting) I wouldnt' do it. So, I say, suit yourself. To me, I literally have ..almost 1000 very rares in my base, all crafted and ready to go, should the HC devs ever take a nerf-bat to afk-farming (thus the supply of purples gets reduced, prices of then would creep upward). I just have nothing in game to get excited about, except during this challenge when an enhancement or IO recipe I can use drops. Not to mention, the XP in DFB is ridiculous. A little too good if you ask me. I'd just as soon avoid it. The only reason I do it now is for badges. 

Yeah, I only run DFB for the buffs and badges.  I shut off Exp on most toons I run there.  For the simple reason if I needed levels I can 30 one in one quick farm.  Running for the buffs means I am doing a low level project.  The buff last until 22 and can be sustained to 30 with DiB.  I am just always trying to game the system lol.  If I tried your challenge I would think a Energy/Invul Brute rand through 4 DFBs then heading to Port Oakes for some easy arcs/merits.  By picking my content lines I would not have an issue until Sharkhead.  Caution would need to be used on the four DiBs though.  A melee character vs the ugly Bros can be iffy.  Most teams that run that these days crush it though.  

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I tend to "crush" any content, with most characters - when I slot them in a typical fashion. It can get trying when I see the IO recipes I can use drop - and not have the salvage for them, and to have SOs drop that are useless due to the wrong origin. 

But, if I cross that line, then next thing I know, the game is easy and dull again. 

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On 7/24/2021 at 5:55 PM, Ukase said:

Well, if someone had told me a rad/dark defender would fare better than an elec/bio scrapper, I wouldn't have believed it. Died at level 7. 

 

In retrospect though, not very surprising. I'm seeing the same thing on my Rad/Rad defender who uses Rad Infection vs. the Kat/Nin scrapper relying on defense toggles.   The scrap is doing better now he has Divine Avalanche to really amp up his melee defense but he's also in Praetoria where entire maps of all-ranged clockwork are unimpressed by near soft-capped melee defense.  The rad/rad has always taken longer to finish each fight but between RI and Radiant Aura, often finishes that fight near full health.  The only thing I've run into that's alarmingly dropped her health is Hellion Damned's and their fire blasts.  And for them, it's usually enough to pop a small purple and lean a little harder on the self heal.  Drains more end but I can stay out of the danger zone and finish the fight.

 

Rad Infection, if I can manage to get and keep everyone else inside of it, might as well be a 31.25% def(ALL) toggle that I got at level 1.  Scrapper can't touch that.

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So, my new brute, spines/regen is a lot of fun. Unfortunately - while stamina only just turned into an issue at level 17, accuracy is a huge issue. (I haven't taken the recovery power yet)
Back on live, on Liberty, I had played Spines/regen scrapper (post nerf) and recall enjoying it quite a bit. This experience isn't much difference - except, in the back of my head, I know that HP is a big factor in regen rate. And the rules of the challenge are really inhibiting the best nature of this secondary. Add to that...defeat was suffered in my pursuit of an Accuracy SO on the SSA arc out of Skyway. It wasn't the boss, but the darn spectrals that came in with Echidna. I couldn't hit a darn thing. At level 16, "beginner's luck" only gave me a paltry ..I think it was 2% bonus, but that wasn't enough when all the accuracy enhancements were red. And although I had 2 level 15 common IO accuracy recipes, I didn't have the salvage to craft them. Still don't! But, suffice it to say, that after 5 failed attempts, I'm going to table the challenge for a while. 

I'll likely try again in a few months. For now, I think I'll just try to do a "don't work the market" for inf challenge, and go with SOs. By "don't work the market", I mean, I can sell whatever, but I can't buy recipes to craft and then sell. Or buy ATOs or Winter-Os and catalyze and repost them at a higher price. (Big inf maker, that is) 

I'll still stick with the get defeated, get deleted theme, but this way, I think I'll have a bit more fun. Also, if I see someone taking down a GM or something, I'll feel like I can ask for an invite without feeling like a freeloader. 

I still have a couple characters that are sitting in First Ward for the D.U.S.T. day job, which increases ToHit & damage & range. I'll give them a shot at the old challenge as soon as I recover from this feeling of inadequacy. Thanks for reading!

 

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5 valiant attempts at a horridly difficult challenge. Congratulations on your successes and the knowledge you obtained.  
 

I would consider trying this on a Energy/Invul Brute but I am fully booked.  I wonder how far I would make it.  I think i could cheese my way through late teens to early 20s okay. After that it would be RNG.  If you get good drops and salvage you are golden. Also, I am  villainous coward by nature. Nothing in the rules about stopping experience and running content i know i can survive long enough to get more enhancers to drop.  I can be stubborn in working around rules lol. That may be in my future.  
 

Thanks for the entertainment and updates as we followed your adventures 

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