Evasive Maneuvers speed suppression on Hover

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, Zepp said:

I have a toon with Hover+Evasive which gives me around 55 flight in and out of combat. Really smooth, and if I need to travel excessive distances I can hit TP. I really enjoy the lack of speed suppression during combat and just wish I could get a tad bit more speed out of it without sacrificing so much...

Turn on Steam Jump. You're welcome 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 7/15/2021 at 8:07 AM, RogueWolf said:

I have no idea what you just said.  I'm guessing that you like the speed, so cool. That's why I'm suggesting it as an option in Null for those who don't.

 

The original devs put speed suppression Null the Gull for a reason. When you move too fast it is hard for a lot of people to navigate. They overshoot targets. The motion is jerky and frustrating. That much speed is just not needed between mobs.

So this is one of those posts that ends up showing me how a person playing badly( not calling you bad, but your clearly playing the game in a manner that holds you back mechanically) ends up wanting the game altered to account for their play style. A flyer be they ranged or melee should in a fight be using tab+f to target on and close with their target quickly with no energy or thought spent on wasd movement, so your focus can be entirely on powers and if need be inspirations.

 

When moving fast in tunnels, the skilled zoom into first person mode and basically move like they are in a racing car game.

 

I am not trying to insult you, but it is clear that the way you play and use the controls is the actual issue imo, not the game needing some adjustment. give people this option, and expect them to get left behind on teams of quick movers. Something we already have seen plenty of friction with in our community.  Sometimes adding options will actually lead to conflict, and in this case I suspect it would more often then not. For example I know a few in game who main on Kin users, and they actively put on ignore anyone who uses Null to negate their speed boosting as they will not play with anyone who is a slow mover. While they are just a few personal accounts of this behavior, I do not imagine they are that unique. Cliques and in game factions are becoming the default more and more I am finding. Even i who used to lead pug tf's daily am far more prone to just solo now days as the community has fractured and fragmented into such conflicting attitudes.

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

So this is one of those posts that ends up showing me how a person playing badly( not calling you bad, but your clearly playing the game in a manner that holds you back mechanically) ends up wanting the game altered to account for their play style. A flyer be they ranged or melee should in a fight be using tab+f to target on and close with their target quickly with no energy or thought spent on wasd movement, so your focus can be entirely on powers and if need be inspirations.

 

When moving fast in tunnels, the skilled zoom into first person mode and basically move like they are in a racing car game.

 

I am not trying to insult you, but it is clear that the way you play and use the controls is the actual issue imo, not the game needing some adjustment. give people this option, and expect them to get left behind on teams of quick movers. Something we already have seen plenty of friction with in our community.  Sometimes adding options will actually lead to conflict, and in this case I suspect it would more often then not. For example I know a few in game who main on Kin users, and they actively put on ignore anyone who uses Null to negate their speed boosting as they will not play with anyone who is a slow mover. While they are just a few personal accounts of this behavior, I do not imagine they are that unique. Cliques and in game factions are becoming the default more and more I am finding. Even i who used to lead pug tf's daily am far more prone to just solo now days as the community has fractured and fragmented into such conflicting attitudes.

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming his computer is a literal potato that leaves him with horrid frame rates and so on. Because if it’s not, there’s no other way to explain the problem minus... posts like this.

[RogueWolf]

So the choices... 

 

1. Keep the power for the very useful resists the devs have added for us, but at the cost of having to fly at a speed that is so fast it is dizzying and aggravating in close quarters.

2. Turn it off during combat or skip the power entirely, denying myself the very useful resists and defeating the whole purpose.

3. Learn to play in a completely different manner than I've been doing since 2004 getting dozens of toons to 50 because I'm clearly doing it wrong. Nah, that's not insulting or condescending at all. 

 

Yeah that's some choice. Thanks.

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, RogueWolf said:

Learn to play in a completely different manner than I've been doing since 2004 getting dozens of toons to 50 because I'm clearly doing it wrong.

Having had the combat tactics of all my Blasters and most of my Corrupters and Defenders get forcibly reworked because of the reduction in range for fast snipes...

Edited July 22, 2021 by srmalloy

[Ignatz the Insane]

On 7/20/2021 at 10:21 AM, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

....I am not trying to insult you, ....

This is insulting, demeaning, unhelpful, conceited, and apathetic.  I also think your claims on kinetic users' ignore habits is either hyperbole or a lie.  

 

I'm not RogueWolf, so I can't speak for him.  It could be anything....medical, mental, crappy computer, or just plain personal preference.  Calling him a shitty player....see above.  For myself it's my laptop.  If I'm going too fast in missions I have problems, especially in caves and sewers.  Speed boost in those situations just doesn't work for me.  I've never had someone complain if I lag a bit behind the team.  

 

Unfortunately I don't have a solution @RogueWolf .  I suppose you could try a few solo missions to get the feel of it and see if it's viable.  If not, I'd start using it situationally.  Make a macro or keybind that makes it easy to toggle off and on.  

[RogueWolf]

29 minutes ago, arcane said:

You may not like those options, but they are at least choices you have.

 

Actually no they aren't. For as smart as you think you people are, the short sighted attempt at logic you keep trying to dazzle me with is obtuse. Those are not "choices" when the only way around the problem is to turn it off or skip the power. The speed boost is not a fair tradeoff for those bonuses. IMHO the speed buff should never have applied to Hover.  The resists ere awesome and very welcome. But the speed aspect of it was never needed (on Hover). Everyone moved more than fast enough indoors. Everyone got to the elevator or the next cave room at pretty much the same time regardless of how. Hover + Swift = the moron bouncing off cave walls running ahead like a coked up toddler. But now the people who do like the speed for reasons I will never understand expect it, and you can't take it away from them. Those of us who don't have to just cope because the 7337 gods have spoken. That's not a choice.

[Glacier Peak]

9 minutes ago, RogueWolf said:

Actually no they aren't. For as smart as you think you people are, the short sighted attempt at logic you keep trying to dazzle me with is obtuse. Those are not "choices" when the only way around the problem is to turn it off or skip the power. The speed boost is not a fair tradeoff for those bonuses. IMHO the speed buff should never have applied to Hover.  The resists ere awesome and very welcome. But the speed aspect of it was never needed (on Hover). Everyone moved more than fast enough indoors. Everyone got to the elevator or the next cave room at pretty much the same time regardless of how. Hover + Swift = the moron bouncing off cave walls running ahead like a coked up toddler. But now the people who do like the speed for reasons I will never understand expect it, and you can't take it away from them. Those of us who don't have to just cope because the 7337 gods have spoken. That's not a choice.

What @arcane said ARE options, therefore the threshold for Null is not met. Regardless of your dislike of how the power works. 

[arcane]

48 minutes ago, RogueWolf said:

 

Actually no they aren't. For as smart as you think you people are, the short sighted attempt at logic you keep trying to dazzle me with is obtuse. Those are not "choices" when the only way around the problem is to turn it off or skip the power. The speed boost is not a fair tradeoff for those bonuses. IMHO the speed buff should never have applied to Hover.  The resists ere awesome and very welcome. But the speed aspect of it was never needed (on Hover). Everyone moved more than fast enough indoors. Everyone got to the elevator or the next cave room at pretty much the same time regardless of how. Hover + Swift = the moron bouncing off cave walls running ahead like a coked up toddler. But now the people who do like the speed for reasons I will never understand expect it, and you can't take it away from them. Those of us who don't have to just cope because the 7337 gods have spoken. That's not a choice.

So why not advocate for the speed boost to be removed from the power instead of the Null proposal? I don’t think you are comprehending the fact that you have an ability to turn off a toggle whereas you do not have an ability to control others’ speed boosts, group fly, or team teleport.

 

You seem to define “choice” as synonymous with “choice I like”. That’s not what “choice” means. 

[RogueWolf]

39 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

What @arcane said ARE options, therefore the threshold for Null is not met. Regardless of your dislike of how the power works. 

 

Those are not "choices" when the only way around the problem is to turn it off or skip the power. It's about the tradeoff.  Screw Null. It's a problem that IMHO deserves some kind of fix. Saying "skip the power or cope" in so many words is not a fix.

[RogueWolf]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

I don’t think you are comprehending the fact that you have an ability to turn off a toggle

 

But then you lose the benefits of having the power in the first place. That's NOT a valid choice. Skip it or cope does not address the problem. It's not a fair tradeoff for the resist bonuses. You people are the ones not comprehending what should be a very simple suggestion.

[RogueWolf]

BTW I've said forget about Null a bunch of times. I changed the subject line and everything.

 

In an ideal world, Evasive Maneuvers speed boost would not apply to Hover. It's not needed and it forces an (in many cases) unwanted speed boost on us in exchange for the useful resist protects. Turning it off is not a reasonable option because then you lose the protections. If there is any way at all to fix this, I pray that the GMs can consider one.

 

Please don't mistake the lack of any more replies as some kind of agreement or concession with the condescending elitists who dominate this toxic forum. I'm just done with them. If you have anything constructive to say, feel free to DM me.

[Glacier Peak]

20 minutes ago, RogueWolf said:

Those are not "choices" when the only way around the problem is to turn it off or skip the power. It's about the tradeoff.  Screw Null. It's a problem that IMHO deserves some kind of fix. Saying "skip the power or cope" in so many words is not a fix.

Okay, so you are intentionally being obtuse. Let me break it down for you:

 

If there is more than one option, it becomes a choice. If there is only one option, it is not a choice. In this case, there are a minimum of three options to choose from the list referred to by @arcane above. You can say you don't like it as much as you want, because that is your opinion - but you are wrong about saying they aren't choices. 

[arcane]

26 minutes ago, RogueWolf said:

 

But then you lose the benefits of having the power in the first place. That's NOT a valid choice. Skip it or cope does not address the problem. It's not a fair tradeoff for the resist bonuses. You people are the ones not comprehending what should be a very simple suggestion.

That’s like saying my Stone tanker doesn’t have a “choice” as it relates to Granite Armor because it’s either skip it or endure consequences I don’t like.

 

Well guess what? My Stone tanker skipped Granite Armor. 

[Marbing]

@RogueWolf I understand what you are trying to say, that you want the bonus protections without the extra speed. I get it, though I actually found it super helpful to my playstyle to have that extra bit of speed while hovering because now I can keep up with the team without having to turn fly off and on. There are powers I find irritating in this regard, Siphon Speed is a good example. I would rather just boost my own recharge without the added Super Speed effect, but I am choosing to use that power so I accept what it does and work around it. 

That being said, @arcane's example above about Granite Armor is also an excellent one. There are powers in the game that have multiple effects, if YOU choose to use the power then you are choosing all of the associated effects. What you are suggesting would open the door for everyone to pick and choose which effects they want based on their playstyle for every single power in the game.

Examples:

I would like like Super Speed to not have a stealth component to it.
I would like Faraday Cage to move with me.

I would like Inertial Reduction to apply to my team and not me. (aka I want to give OTHERS SJ without also giving myself SJ)

I would like Energy Transfer to not damage me when I use it.

and so on

and so on

and so on... You see? You get the power you pick and all that is associated with it and adjust your playstyle around it. 

 

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, RogueWolf said:

In an ideal world, Evasive Maneuvers speed boost would not apply to Hover.

 

Your ideal world.  Based on the responses thus far, many others prefer the world in which players aren't forced to use Accelerate Metabolism/Siphon Speed/juggling Jump Packs/+Movement Speed IO set bonuses to reach the old flight speed cap with Hover.  I'm in that camp.

 

1 hour ago, RogueWolf said:

Turning it off is not a reasonable option because then you lose the protections.

 

You lose the protection when you don't actually need it.  Between spawns.  If you're not reaching the next spawn before EM has recharged, then you've got no reason not to toggle it off.

 

Presuming that you have no global +Recharge (Hasten, IO set bonuses) and no Recharge Reduction slotted in EM (Defense sets), leaving it at the default 10s recharge time, if you are arriving at the next spawn, traveling at unbuffed Hover speed, while EM has several seconds of recharge time remaining and forcing you to engage foes without the protection it offers, then you're clearly not travelling any appreciable distance and you aren't going around more than one or two twists/corners, so you're not so inconvenienced that this requires change.

 

There's no justification for disabling the speed buff while Hover is active in this reasoning.

[Outrider_01]

Ok, I am still dumb but

 

Is it the status protection the bigger issue, desire it over the other aspects of Evasive Maneuvers?

 

Cause there is not that much -flight in the game.  Same as immobilized, there isn't that much except for factions like Malta; I forget if they have web grenades since you get hit with stuns, saps, and hold so often.  

 

CJ is now less beneficial compared to EM with hover, CJ's height/speed isn't the best especially with the free travel powers from PTW.  Piddly defense, LOTG slot (flight now has 2!), and SJ pool doesn't get a buff power like EM; Range PBAOE jump is cool and all but the recharge kills the fun for me.  I LIKE Savage melee better.

[RogueWolf]

So... many powers have tradeoffs. And all of those other tradeoffs are pretty reasonable. Granite Armor is probably the most extreme example, yeah. That's not apples to apples, though. And it's been that way since (practically) day 1 for well thought-out reasons. Somebody else in the thread tried to compare this to the snipe mechanic change. But moving your toon around is a bit more fundamental than having to adjust your attack string for one AT. Not a fair comparison at all. The extra speed is just too fast to the point of being jarring IMHO, and not a fair tradeoff for the benefit you get.

 

I thought of a way this could work, though. Kind of like the synergy between the fighting pool and brawl, where simply having a power augments another without it being "on."

 

Maybe make it so that simply having EM adds the -fly -immobilize and -kb to Hover. Then actually toggling it ON adds the speed buff and flight control.

 

Simple, doesn't require Null, strikes me as a win-win. Thank you to the handful of sane people who chimed in and at least understood where I'm coming from.

Edited July 23, 2021 by RogueWolf

[arcane]

I would be completely ok with moving the extra speed to fly as long as the result with all three toggles is the same. 
 

I can imagine people that actually like running Hover without Fly won’t be down with that either. 
 

What if Walk could be toggled on in flight and would bottom out your flight speed too?

[RogueWolf]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

What if Walk could be toggled on in flight and would bottom out your flight speed too?

 

It's a bit more clumsy having a third toggle to activate, but it makes sense, too.

[Hew]

I would like cake, and eat it too. Please may i have some more to not eat,  but eat.

 

Infiltrate cant be run at the same time as cloak. Can I please turn the cloak off of infiltrate, so I can run infiltrate and cloak at the same time, but not lose the jump and run from infiltrate?

 

Your choice is ultimately to not take the power, and continue as you were before evman even came out. It worked for you for lots of 50s. No one is forcing you to pick this power. You choose to pick it, there for you choose to live with the consequences. Again, per your own statement, you have tons of 50s that predate it, so clearly, you do not need whatever benefit that comes with evman, since you never used it before. 

 

The easiest solution is to simply revert to a previous playstyle which was in no way adversely affected by the addition of evman. You can hover at slow hover speeds all day long.

[Sovera]

This part of the forum is thick with 'this doesn't bother ME, so it's not a problem. Also, the Devs Time Is Precious So No' (as if they had any sort of say on what the devs do or do not...).

 

That said I believe you are wanting only the benefits without any of the drawbacks. While an extreme example it is not too unlike wanting the benefits of a defensive T9 but not the downside (the crash). It's an extreme example, but, I think fitting. Wanting the -fly is no different from wanting Super-Speed's super speed but asking to have it able to jump too so it can avoid walls.

 

When you take EvM you choose to take the speed in order to get the -fly resist, which at some point you decide whether one is worth the other or not, just like we do with most choices (I'd love to have Fold Space in every character, but I'm -not- taking Teleport as my travel power, thankyouverymuch).

 

 

That said I'm just giving my two cents, the devs will obviously do it or not as they see fit. More options never hurt.

[Rigged]

On 7/22/2021 at 11:53 PM, RogueWolf said:

BTW I've said forget about Null a bunch of times. I changed the subject line and everything.

 

In an ideal world, Evasive Maneuvers speed boost would not apply to Hover. It's not needed and it forces an (in many cases) unwanted speed boost on us in exchange for the useful resist protects. Turning it off is not a reasonable option because then you lose the protections. If there is any way at all to fix this, I pray that the GMs can consider one.

 

Please don't mistake the lack of any more replies as some kind of agreement or concession with the condescending elitists who dominate this toxic forum. I'm just done with them. If you have anything constructive to say, feel free to DM me.

While I respect your desire to slow down and keep Hover speed with Evasive Maneuvers on, I would like to say that I very much do NOT want the +fly removed from Evasive Maneuvers while in Hover. You can Null the Gull it away if you like, but *I* pile every +fly on Hover that I can and consider the +fly on Evasive Maneuvers to be a valid buff that I do not want removed especially considering the alternative, to run the power Fly in combat, is stupidly END-heavy.

 

This is very much not ideal for me. Changes you want to accommodate your niche playstyle (with respect, it is niche even though I consider your perspective valid) should not affect the rest of us.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Rigged
Changed EM to Evasive Maneuvers for clarity

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 7/21/2021 at 6:56 PM, Ignatz the Insane said:

This is insulting, demeaning, unhelpful, conceited, and apathetic.  I also think your claims on kinetic users' ignore habits is either hyperbole or a lie.  

 

I'm not RogueWolf, so I can't speak for him.  It could be anything....medical, mental, crappy computer, or just plain personal preference.  Calling him a shitty player....see above.  For myself it's my laptop.  If I'm going too fast in missions I have problems, especially in caves and sewers.  Speed boost in those situations just doesn't work for me.  I've never had someone complain if I lag a bit behind the team.  

 

Unfortunately I don't have a solution @RogueWolf .  I suppose you could try a few solo missions to get the feel of it and see if it's viable.  If not, I'd start using it situationally.  Make a macro or keybind that makes it easy to toggle off and on.  

How can I stating a few kin users I personally know, and stating I cant know with any certainty how common that pov is, be hyperbolic?

 

And if you have never had anyone take issue with you not sticking with a team and contributing good for you, but frankly when I lead TFs if I notice someone is basically always a room behind the team, then they are off as I loathe pikers with a passion.

 

BTW in gaming talking about ones ability to play a game or lack there of is not an insult. If my post was deemed insulting by forum admin they would have removed it by now.

 

There is an ability to use the controls and navigate a game that is skill based, not everyone has these skills equally, and just because someone lacks them does not mean the game needs to be altered so they can play it more easily.

 

Take a game I play off and on called Warframe. There the ability to move quickly when pugging is not remotely optional, the speed players can move there using parkour abilities is quite significant, and those lacking these skills basically have to play solo because it is them seen as greifers and harrassing the community by trying to play with those more capable. I myself am not especially skilled at the parkour and often play solo. When I choose to pug I use the frame called Titania because she alone possesses a unique ability to shrink down and fly at high speeds like The Wasp of marvel comics. She is my go to for pugging so I am not holding a team back or piking by being unable to keep up with them. I adapt my gear and play style to not hinder other players, not demand they slow down or the game slows them down or anything else. I adapt, I try to play better, or use the tools the game gives me to keep up with those better players.

 

Being bad at a game and being called out for being bad at playing a game is not an insult except to the fragile of ego who need to think they are always a great game player.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

15 hours ago, RogueWolf said:

So... many powers have tradeoffs. And all of those other tradeoffs are pretty reasonable. Granite Armor is probably the most extreme example, yeah. That's not apples to apples, though. And it's been that way since (practically) day 1 for well thought-out reasons. Somebody else in the thread tried to compare this to the snipe mechanic change. But moving your toon around is a bit more fundamental than having to adjust your attack string for one AT. Not a fair comparison at all. The extra speed is just too fast to the point of being jarring IMHO, and not a fair tradeoff for the benefit you get.

 

I thought of a way this could work, though. Kind of like the synergy between the fighting pool and brawl, where simply having a power augments another without it being "on."

 

Maybe make it so that simply having EM adds the -fly -immobilize and -kb to Hover. Then actually toggling it ON adds the speed buff and flight control.

 

Simple, doesn't require Null, strikes me as a win-win. Thank you to the handful of sane people who chimed in and at least understood where I'm coming from.

Yeah right here that part you bold, that to me proves your entire position insanely unreasonable. You want a power just taken grant you a ton of passive protection, there is not one auto power in a defense set in the game that gives anything like that level of passive defense against KB and the like. Hover tanking is very powerful, and the ability to prevent being forcefully grounded also very powerful. You need to understand that being airborne is not some right you are promises to always enjoy having with no price paid.

 

If anyone and anything is going to get a built in passive protection against -Fly it should be the Peace Bringer AT. They are the true king of the sky in CoH AT design as far as I am concerned and should always have advantages over other flyers of great significance.