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Mind control


WitchofDread

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10 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

Yeah. Dark Control is S tier for me partly for that reason, and also partly because it provides huge debuffs that get you around the mezz binary that rules most Dominator builds. Unlike Controllers, Dominators are starved for debuff, armor or healing. The -ToHit in Dark Control goes much further for them. My Dark Control builds are usually unstoppable from around level 22 on. This is before we get into the kegger that is Dark Control comboed with a source of Power Boost, at which point the Dominator becomes one of the best ToHit debuffers in the game.

 

Dark Control is S tier for Dominators. Well earned.

 

Where was there ever a disagreement about Dark Control being S tier?  It's not Plant good but it's still up there.  Of all the control sets it is more damage oriented than the rest, but in terms of battlefield control it feels a bit naked.  Thus Mind is your huckleberry if you want to maintain massive control then you can just lean a bit harder into your secondary and pools for the damage and defenses.  That's where I'm confused how it can be said Mind control can't do the things to the whole map that I see it does whenever I play my dom.  

 

Unfamiliarity with how to play the set is more your undoing.  Mind and Dark are both S minus tier.  

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20 minutes ago, Voltak said:

I feel what you saying about all hands on deck, but being dead is no hands on deck.

 

Easily corrected when I just switch out my leadership pool for the stealth build.  I now know I need to approach the map assuming I have one less teammate to help.  

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You said

"Where was there ever a disagreement about Dark Control being S tier?  It's not Plant good but it's still up there. "



That's not right.  Dmg is not the deciding factor when determining what set is at the top. 

Dark has so many things going for it besides dmg that plant just does not provide you. 

Dark has more elements or instrument to provide mass hard controls than Mind has. 



______________________________________________

Moving on to the next one -->


When I saw you and the others dead, I saw I had many team mates not helping at all. 

Even when you joined us with your stealth build, you still died multiple times, therefore you contributed nothing all those times. 

So you having what I had but you still died, thus you became zero to the left as soon as that happened in the aim to get job done, the task done. 

I play dominators like a finesse character, and tactically and strategic. 

I get the job done with or without you. 

Also, the EB that I possess will do more dmg to the critters than you and any other team mate combined, even drastically more when you are dead. 

This discussion is about power set in comparison with another power set. 

I still don't know why you deviated from that subject. 

Why are you hating ?

Edited by Voltak
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8 minutes ago, Voltak said:

When I saw you and the others dead, I saw I had many team mates not helping at all. 

Even when you joined us with your stealth build, you still died multiple times, therefore you contributed nothing all those times. 

I play dominators like a finesse character, and tactically and strategic. 

I get the job done with or without you. 

Also, the EB that I possess will do more dmg to the critters than you and any other team mate combined, even drastically more when you are dead. 

This discussion is about power set in comparison with another power set. 

I still don't know why you deviated from that subject. 

Why are you hating ?

 

Again.  Maybe they wouldn't be dead if you had provided some of that aoe control with the -tohitt goodness.  But stealth ST confuse it is.  

 

The ITF hardcore with cheating Romans that breakfree from control is a hard ask.  So either we drop the best damage we can along with things that provide debuffs to their damage abilities or everyone going in needs to just run through in invisible.  

Edited by Mezmera
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5 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

Again.  Maybe they wouldn't be dead if you had provided some of that aoe control with the -tohitt goodness.  But stealth ST confuse it is.  



The to hit debuff goodness would not be enough if players play reckless like you did. 

Second - if you die, it is your ultimate fault, not mine. 

In a team of all dominators, that's essentially what it all comes down to. It's very different when playing controllers or defenders. 

If you can't avoid dying, that's on you and only you. 

Again, the feats I achieve with my dom are done because I am tactical and smart and I have an excellent set of instruments to do them. 

You tried to get the same instruments and you died more times than I could count. 

 

That's not my fault. 

I got the job done. 

I got my kills

I got my shares of them.   I did come out of stealth when tactically sound to do so. 

Why are you deviating the subject matter ??

The discussion is about powersets ?

 

Edited by Voltak
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Just now, Mezmera said:

 

I was assuming I had better teammates to help.  I was wrong.  Next run stealth pool it is.  

I know when to break stealth and when not to do it. 

I know when to start blasting care free and when to blast with care and when not to blast at all. 

Your team mate played better than you. In the end, having counted the so many times you died, I ended up doing a lot more than you did. 

I just play better, and I am more tactical, and strategic. 

Look at my videos, I don't play reckless. 

Other dominators lived while you died over and over and over. 

Again, why are you changing the subject matter?

The post is about the power sets. 

Why the hate?  

 

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Hey there, Mez & Vol. When we do hardcore dom runs we all know it's my job to serve as vengeance bait. Neither of you are allowed to take that role away from me. 

 

You have different playstyles, which help to inform your different build preferences. But, you're both really good players and I learn a lot from teaming with both of you.

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2 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Hey there, Mez & Vol. When we do hardcore dom runs we all know it's my job to serve as vengeance bait. Neither of you are allowed to take that role away from me. 

 

You have different playstyles, which help to inform your different build preferences. But, you're both really good players and I learn a lot from teaming with both of you.

nice and pleasant to see some love here. 

That was fantastic. 

Thank you

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16 minutes ago, Voltak said:

I know when to break stealth and when not to do it. 

I know when to start blasting care free and when to blast with care and when not to blast at all. 

Your team mate played better than you. In the end, having counted the so many times you died, I ended up doing a lot more than you did. 

I just play better, and I am more tactical, and strategic. 

Look at my videos, I don't play reckless. 

Other dominators lived while you died over and over and over. 

Again, why are you changing the subject matter?

The post is about the power sets. 

Why the hate?  

 

 

No hate.  The observation is that it's a divergent playstyle providing little benefit of what you're capable of offering to the rest of the 7 players.  I didn't want to take days to complete the TF just to prove a point or I'd have stealthed everything like I know I can.  Nor do I think anyone else wanted to either.   You're strictly a solo artist, that's cool.     

Edited by Mezmera
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42 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

No hate.  The observation is that it's a divergent playstyle providing little benefit of what you're capable of offering to the rest of the 7 players.  I didn't want to take days to complete the TF just to prove a point or I'd have stealthed everything like I know I can.  Nor do I think anyone else wanted to either.   You're strictly a solo artist, that's cool.     


It's hate. 

Also a change of subject matter since the discussion is about power sets comparisons for dominators. 

Again, I break stealth when it was smart given the strict conditions of the task force set by the leader ( no deaths being one, no inspirations another, and no temps)

I had my share of kills and I did come out of invisible to blast freely or throw other kinds of controls. 

I did what was necessary to do the mission. 

Other dominators lived while you died. 

If the objectives were achieved it was achieved thanks to those who lived to get them ALL done. Since nothing gets finished with dead players. 

As for your comment of me being a strict solo artist --  

I am an artist indeed, not a solo one, but I play the game and use tactics and strategies like artwork, I play dominator with finesse

I have done more duos and small team ITFs with a lot more different ATs than you and I have done more of them successfully than you have. 

I have more DIFFERENT kinds of characters who have finished with success the duos than anyone else in the chnl. 

I have saved many a team mate so many times. 

Don't teach me about how to be an efficient player or a good team mate. 

You died because of your own flaws , not mine. 

Other Doms lived in that run while you died. 

Blame yourself and yourself only. 

Edited by Voltak
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Circling back to the OP, and speaking in favor of mind control, mass hypnosis is a helpful tool for minimizing possible over-aggro. This can be done by using mass hypnosis on a nearby spawn that's uncomfortably close to the one the team is fighting, or about to fight. Given that it can affect up to 16 mobs over a wide area, it generates no aggro, and its recharge time tends to be short when IO'd up, it's an excellent choice for that purpose. 

 

When teams are defeating everything in seconds that level of aggro control makes no difference. But, when dealing with harder content and/or to help squishier teammates it's a tool readily available to a mind dom that doesn't have a ready equivalent in all other control sets.  

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28 minutes ago, Voltak said:


It's hate. 

Also a change of subject matter since the discussion is about power sets comparisons for dominators. 

Again, I break stealth when it was smart given the strict conditions of the task force set by the leader ( no deaths being one, no inspirations another, and no temps)

I had my share of kills and I did come out of invisible to blast freely or throw other kinds of controls. 

I did what was necessary to do the mission. 

Other dominators lived while you died. 

If the objectives were achieved it was achieved thanks to those who lived to get them ALL done. Since nothing gets finished with dead players. 

As for your comment of me being a strict solo artist --  

I am an artist indeed, not a solo one, but I play the game and use tactics and strategies like artwork, I play dominator with finesse

I have done more duos and small team ITFs with a lot more different ATs than you and I have done more of them successfully than you have. 

I have more DIFFERENT kinds of characters who have finished with success the duos than anyone else in the chnl. 

I have saved many a team mate so many times. 

Don't teach me about how to be an efficient player or a good team mate. 

You died because of your own flaws , not mine. 

Other Doms lived in that run while you died. 

Blame yourself and yourself only. 

 

Again. My assumption was I had other good teammates to provide additional dmg/mitigation.  I was wrong hence I died quite a bit more on that first go through since I was on my team build. 

 

You keep bringing up the fact I died more than you'd usually expect but I don't get where you don't understand when you're on a team you're under the assumption teammates will work in a coordinated effort.  

 

You could have just said you'll be stealth solo ST confusing the whole TF so I could have just sat outside of the mission and grabbed some lunch, switched to my stealth build, or not even have come at all since I'm not feeling playing these TF's for 1.5 hrs unless I'm trying to crow about some mundane achievement.  

 

No problem though.  Lets duo a bunch of content then.  Now that I know I'd be on my own I can play in such a manner.  But lets play a full spectrum of things which'll have you come out of your stealth shell, or can you not function in such a manner on that uber dark dom?  

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I had no expectations about you. 

I just saw you died more than I can count from memory.  That's all I said. I never said anything about me expecting you to be alive. 

I was not your only team mate. 

You dying is ultimately your fault. 

I did walk in to the team and the mission with the intelligent approach that I am my own last line of defense and no one else will be my last line of defense. 

Other doms survived, not just me. 

I been on two runs with you on your doms and my dom, both times you died. One you played with your none stealth build. 

The second time you played on your stealth build, and both times you died too many times. 
I just played with better tactics and strategies. 

I did not stealth solo and only used confuse so I was never going to say that. 

You keep saying that but it's not true at all .  You need to think that, IMO, since if you don't you see how your idea in this discussion just dies. 
I have stated the facts that I came out of stealth at times when it was smart to do so. 
You on the ground with you face down so I know you can't see much.  

Check out my fights vs LVL 54s AVs and LVL 53 AVs, out of stealth if you question my skills or my build.  Also do Clamor at lvl 25 with your "best character".  



THen show me your videos, please, or just bring me along and I will record them for you. 

Talk is cheap. 



 

Edited by Voltak
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58 minutes ago, Voltak said:

I had no expectations about you. 

I just saw you died more than I can count from memory.  That's all I said. I never said anything about me expecting you to be alive. 

I was not your only team mate. 

You dying is ultimately your fault. 

I did walk in to the team and the mission with the intelligent approach that I am my own last line of defense and no one else will be my last line of defense. 

Other doms survived, not just me. 

I been on two runs with you on your doms and my dom, both times you died. One you played with your none stealth build. 

The second time you played on your stealth build, and both times you died too many times. 
I just played with better tactics and strategies. 

I did not stealth solo and only used confuse so I was never going to say that. 

You keep saying that but it's not true at all .  You need to think that, IMO, since if you don't you see how your idea in this discussion just dies. 
I have stated the facts that I came out of stealth at times when it was smart to do so. 
You on the ground with you face down so I know you can't see much.  

Check out my fights vs LVL 54s AVs and LVL 53 AVs, out of stealth if you question my skills or my build.  Also do Clamor at lvl 25 with your "best character".  



THen show me your videos, please, or just bring me along and I will record them for you. 

Talk is cheap. 



 

 

We play in the same circle.  Why do I need to make videos when we can just team up.  I can breeze through a kill all Carnie mission 3 times as fast as you can without dying.  Or half of those tough AE arcs. 

 

A stalker running through to the end and killing the last target and claiming they defeated every group just by running by them is pretty much what you're equating what your dom does group to group with stealth ST confuse.  It's not new, nor unique.  

 

Because you can solo AVs a bit faster because you're on an inherently better ST damaging control with -tohitt that makes you the end all be all?  You have a pet and an additional quasi pet along with Lores and any Epic pet you may have.  Lets see how you do in Praetorian 54 missions.  

 

There's all kinds of measurements that can be had. 

 

Edited by Mezmera
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Ah, so you do admit I am a better AV killer than you. 

You also admitting you won't be able to do the ITF under the same circumstances as me?

Can you survive an AV lvl 53 or 54 ? 

Doing the ITF is not equating me to a stalker. 

Given the circumstances, I will adjust my tactics, as all intelligent and skilled players should be able to do. 

I never claimed every group in an ITF.  You are putting words into my mouth in order for you to try to make me look bad. 

Your whole intent since your first post as a response to me was done with your intent to try to make me look bad. 

Why ?   Why the hate?    The ITF is not just about the AVs, you know that pretty well, even if you die so much. 

Watch my video vs the Praetorian AV. 

Can you survive him and kill him ?  

I do the mission objectives, no need to do extra.  

If the mission objective included killing x amount or killing all AND an AV or two at the end, I will do it successfully. 

I can't say the same about you, nor can you say it. 

If I wanted to farm, I do a farm with a farmer. 

You brought two builds , one build on one occasion of the ITF and died.  You brought your second stealth build and still died. 

We might run in the same circle but you are the one who comes here to attack me or what I do.  No one in our circle attacks me. 

They all respect me as a player, skill and build wise. And I respect them and I don't attack them at all, ever. 

The subject matter in this thread was never me. 

You have something personal against me. 

I never started to attack you at all. 


You made it about me or what I do . 

This was a discussion about the power set comparison. 

 

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Any Dominator should be able to do at least some AoE control. Here's what each set other than Mind is bringing on an every-fight basis when pushed to its performance limits:

 

  • Earth: Stalagmites and Earthquake
  • Ice: Arctic Air and Ice Slick
  • Fire: Flashfire and Bonfire (and to a lesser extent Hot Feet)
  • Gravity: Wormhole
  • Plant: Seeds of Confusion and Carrion Creepers
  • Electric: Static Field and Synaptic Overload (and arguably Conductive Aura)
  • Dark Fearsome Stare and Heart of Darkness

 

 

To every fight Mind Control brings:

  • Terrify (and arguably Mass Hypnosis), and Mass Confusion to one half of fights

 

It's possible Teleknesis is meant to be the every spawn AoE control. If so, it needs some rework. Elsewise, Mass Confusion's recharge is too long.

 

I didn't list the AoE Hold because its not available every fight, and every control set can do it. When the point is literally to compare the sets, we don't get to list it for one of them as if the other seven don't also get the power. and in some cases, like Dark and Earth, a clearly superior version of it.

Edited by oedipus_tex
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55 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Any Dominator should be able to do at least some AoE control. Here's what each set other than Mind is bringing on an every-fight basis when pushed to its performance limits:

 

  • Earth: Stalagmites and Earthquake
  • Ice: Arctic Air and Ice Slick
  • Fire: Flashfire and Bonfire (and to a lesser extent Hot Feet)
  • Gravity: Wormhole
  • Plant: Seeds of Confusion and Carrion Creepers
  • Electric: Static Field and Synaptic Overload (and arguably Conductive Aura)
  • Dark Fearsome Stare and Heart of Darkness

 

 

To every fight Mind Control brings:

  • Terrify (and arguably Mass Hypnosis), and Mass Confusion to one half of fights

 

It's possible Teleknesis is meant to be the every spawn AoE control. If so, it needs some rework. Elsewise, Mass Confusion's recharge is too long.

 

I didn't list the AoE Hold because its not available every fight, and every control set can do it. When the point is literally to compare the sets, we don't get to list it for one of them as if the other seven don't also get the power. and in some cases, like Dark and Earth, a clearly superior version of it.

 

You left out one of the best or the best AoE hold in the game for Dark as far as AoE  ON PURPOSE, I see, and I hear you, so instead of 2 , it is 3 things.   Yes, every control sets has them but Shadow field's very significant to hit debuff is something that last after the hold is over.  You don't get that from other sets and that is a very important way of mitigating. 

So for Dark  it is 

1. Fearsome stare, stops mobs in their tracks, or preemptively maybe cast on mobs too close but not yet agro'd but to prevent they do something against you as long as they still not getting hit
Every encounter and maybe even twice in same encounter

2. Heart of Darkness , huge PbAoE Stun
EVERY encounter and maybe even twice in same 


3. Shadow Field and it's huge to hit debuff.   

On top of all that AoE to hit debuffs 

Also *** Haunt has a taunt auro to them every time you summon them *** and that is one form of control 

So to open groups , to open contact with mobs, in a way that prevents them from fighting , or prevents them from fighting with fluidity , Dark, Earth,  have the most tools to open groups in that category, with earth beating them all ( earthquake is so good). 

Edited by Voltak
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42 minutes ago, arcane said:

Mass Confusion being up every other fight is a reasonable compromise for being an “I win” button imho.

 

 

I disagree that Mass Confusion is any more an "I win" button more than other controls. Mass Confusion is a Scale 20 mezz on a 240 recharge, which translates to an uptime ratio of 12. Stalagmites, to grab one random example, is a Scale 8 mezz on a 90 recharge, which translates to a nearly identical uptime ratio of 11.25. The only real difference is that Stalagmites will be up about every 20 seconds on an end game build, versus 60 for Mass Confusion. 

 

Mass Confusion would have an edge if other Dominators couldn't recast their 90 or 60 sec power when needed. What tends to happen to Mind characters is they end up leaping into fights with Terrify because Mass Confusion is still recharging, where a different Dominator would have just cast Stalagmites/Flashfire/etc. 

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6 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

 

I disagree that Mass Confusion is any more an "I win" button more than other controls. Mass Confusion is a Scale 20 mezz on a 240 recharge, which translates to an uptime ratio of 12. Stalagmites, to grab one random example, is a Scale 8 mezz on a 90 recharge, which translates to a nearly identical uptime ratio of 11.25. The only real difference is that Stalagmites will be up about every 20 seconds on an end game build, versus 60 for Mass Confusion. 

 

Mass Confusion would have an edge if other Dominators couldn't recast their 90 or 60 sec power when needed. What tends to happen to Mind characters is they end up leaping into fights with Terrify because Mass Confusion is still recharging, where a different Dominator would have just cast Stalagmites/Flashfire/etc. 

 

i see this point of view, however i feel it ignores the type of mez applied

 

a mob where 80% of enemies are hit with a stun behaves very differently to one where 80% is confused - all hell breaks loose and chaos arrives instantly (and with zero aggro on me)

 

i also don’t think every mob needs to have total mez applied, as a mind/fire dom i’m happy to whack on an AoE mez only when needed. the damage output of many doms is high, for me it’s two ATs in one - sometimes i’m solely focused on putting out damage, whereas when things start going south i’ll lock things down

 

having everything ranged both mez and damage is nice too

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Mass Confusion takes way too long to recharge

Dark does not have that problem. 

Every new group of mobs, dark has powers to lockdown the whole group or most of it to the point they can't fight back at all. 
And if most of the mob is not locked down, because of miss or placement, it can  fear the others and significantly debuff the to hit ability of the enemy.

I have gather shadows ready for every encounter so a power boosted fear means the to hit debuff is even stronger.  At lvl 45+ I have clarion radial and that makes the to hit debuff ridiculously strong when mixed with gather shadows.   They hardly ever can manage to hit back at all. 

Haunt has a taunt aura thus helping even more. 

I want a power to disable the whole group to the point where they can't fight back, and I want that at every point where I get a new group of mobs. 

Tactics change with Cimerorans since they have break free, in that case the to hit debuff is now gold. 

I have that in Dark, earth, and so on  except Mind because of the long recharges. 

All this without mentioning until now that no other control set has Shadow Field or something like it. 

Even after the hold is over, the strong to hit debuff from that power, unlike any of the other Dark powers in terms of strength, provides a significant mitigation or protection from dmg.   That debuff is then made greater by gather shadows or clarion radial. 

Anything touched by Shadow Field ( it does not even need to hold the critter)  is strongly debuffed. 

 

Edited by Voltak
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5 hours ago, Voltak said:

Haunt has a taunt aura thus helping even more. 

 

 

Just to be thorough, remember Dark Control's Haunts don't actually Taunt enemies. What that power does is give the enemy a temporary power that taunts the Haunts to the target. This forces them to focus-fire that target.

 

You are absolutely correct that Haunt is a really good power. 

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Yes, that is 100% correct and that is why I consider it a benefit.  

They are consistent.  They don't do 1  or 2 hits then run off to another target. 

They focus on the target thus enabling higher dmg since it's not split off.  

That may also become beneficial if you are in 1 vs 1 situation and there are many other critters around.   

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