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Trollers, Fenders and the Useless Abilities Could Get A Once or Twice Over


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Since I have been back I have recreated many of my characters from Live. My experience so far has been that there are now so many useless abilities, particulary in Controllers and Defenders.. Most of these I consider useless due to the Maxie builds and incarnate system creating so much Alpha havok that everything dies so fast theres no reason to use them, but alas we take them, because there is nothing else or the option is even worse. Here are a few I just roll my eyes at. 

 

ANYTHING Confuse & Deceive: Why bother unless you are soloing.  The targets insta die becuse due to the Magnitude of the control effect you can only effect minions and Lts and they die instantly in the current combat mechanics.

 

Darkest NIght: Even with the changes to the ability its effects no matter how you slot it are negligible.

 

Dark Obliteration: Seriously if you are going to call a power something and put the word Obliteration in its name it needs to do more that lite damage. 

 

Enflame: Has the potential to be a good ability but for it's rank cost and end cost the damge is laughable above level 30. +3 +3 +3 +3 

 

Energy Tansfer: Hey I know..... Imma kill myself...

 

Devastating blow: with a 3.2 ish second animation. your target is dead by teammates befor you even finish the animation. It is completely absurd. In this case I have noticed a strange .5 second gap in the animation jsut before the power the power goes off.  Useless in most cases, unless fighting an AV or GM

 

PB & WS: Fer crying out loud! Just switch the KB to KD on these guys and be done with it. If the player wants KB then they can enhnace it for KB and get the team ire for it.

 

These are just what I've run across.. I know there are more. I feel as though due to the ALPHA level of the game that consideration needs to be taken into account as to how fast things are defeated in the game and how it effects the other combat aspects of the game, like the abilities above. There is a reason why few fenders and trollers are played in the game except for the most powerful or utilitarian, IE ice with the KD Lock down for entire groups or Kinetics  for the boosting. The rest are seldom used becuse they have few assets to offer a team over level 32. Now this is just my take. Im sure others will disagree and that's fine. 

 

Edited by Czar
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1 hour ago, Czar said:

ANYTHING Confuse & Deceive: Why bother unless you are soloing.  The targets insta die becuse due to the Magnitude of the control effect you can only effect minions and Lts and they die instantly in the current combat mechanics.

 

I don't think I'm the only one that doesn't play end-game. This is true in end-game play. It isn't true during game play.

If you would have said Sleep (any) then I would have agreed with you.

 

1 hour ago, Czar said:

Darkest NIght: Even with the changes to the ability its effects no matter how you slot it are negligible.

 

Again. End-game vs game play.

 

1 hour ago, Czar said:

Energy Tansfer: Hey I know..... Imma kill myself...

 

Empathy : Absorb pain - I'm not an empath! I'm a masochist!

 

Dominator : Energy Transfer - it is true that one would think a dominator would be more sadist than a masochist.

Stalker : Energy Transfer - https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Energy_Melee#Energy_Transfer - "... Unlike other Stalker primary attack powers, Energy Transfer cannot land a Critical Hit. However, if this attack is executed successfully while Hidden, you can avoid the hit point loss to yourself and deal a massive blow with no penalty"

 

Perhaps if the Dominator has Domination running, then perhaps they shouldn't take the hit point damage.

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Dominator "...Additionally, each time a Dominator attacks, he comes closer to unleashing his true sadistic power of Domination. ..."

 

1 hour ago, Czar said:

Dark Obliteration: Seriously if you are going to call a power something and put the word Obliteration in its name it needs to do more that lite damage. 

 

It is clear that this is not the Dark set's "nuke". Blackstar is the nuke.

I think it is far to late for a name change or swap though.

Would have been a good idea if caught in beta.

 

1 hour ago, Czar said:

PB & WS: Fer crying out loud! Just switch the KB to KD on these guys and be done with it. If the player wants KB then they can enhnace it for KB and get the team ire for it.

 

Thumbs down on this.

I like using my ranged powers. Knock back keeps them away from me until I'm ready to rush in for a melee attack. In which case, I'm trying to knock them back again.

You can always slot Sudden Acceleration: Knockback to Knockdown if you don't like the knockback.

Besides, knockback is great fun when you have a tank that thinks that they should be the center of attention .. ALL THE TIME, because, you know, they are the tank.

 

1 hour ago, Czar said:

These are just what I've run across.. I know there are more.

 

Most of Mind Control is sleep related. As soon as they are disturbed they are free of the sleep.

I think sleep is mostly for stealthing versus combat or when  you have teammates that aren't spamming everything with AoEs.

 

But, the really obvious one is :: Mind Control: Telekinesis. Originally, it was a "grant teammate flight" power. But now it is, "Lifts a foe, and any nearby foes, off the ground and repels them. The targets are helpless, unable to take action, and will continue to hover away, picking up any passing targets, as long as you keep this power active. Keeping up this level of concentration costs a lot of Endurance."

Yep, floating off down the hallway or wherever, agro'ing more and more enemies until you turn it off. 

Seems bad?

Oh, just use in a Kill All! There is no telling where the enemies will run off to once you turn it off.

 

Gravity : Dimensional Shift? Has its uses.

 

Another thread was talking about Stealth: Evasion being pretty useless. You lose all the defense bonus if you go into combat.

 

Teleport: Team teleport - prank your team. Teleport them all a short distance against their will! (HINT :: Go see Nul the Gull to stop these teleporting pranksters!)

 

 Flight: Group Fly - much better than it used to be apparently, but haven't bothered to check

1 hour ago, Czar said:

I feel as though due to the ALPHA level of the game

 

I think you are misusing a term.

Are you meaning "end-game"?

 

1 hour ago, Czar said:

Im sure others will disagree and that's fine. 

 

Around here, there are always going to be people that disagree with you, but don't let that stop you from saying what you feel you need to say.

 

 

 

Edited by UltraAlt
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4 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

I don't think I'm the only one that doesn't play end-game. This is true in end-game play. It isn't true during game play.

If you would have said Sleep (any) then I would have agreed with you.

 

 

Again. End-game vs game play.

 

 

Empathy : Absorb pain - I'm not an empath! I'm a masochist!

 

Dominator : Energy Transfer - it is true that one would think a dominator would be more sadist than a masochist.

Stalker : Energy Transfer - https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Energy_Melee#Energy_Transfer - "... Unlike other Stalker primary attack powers, Energy Transfer cannot land a Critical Hit. However, if this attack is executed successfully while Hidden, you can avoid the hit point loss to yourself and deal a massive blow with no penalty"

 

Perhaps if the Dominator has Domination running, then perhaps they shouldn't take the hit point damage.

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Dominator "...Additionally, each time a Dominator attacks, he comes closer to unleashing his true sadistic power of Domination. ..."

 

 

It is clear that this is not the Dark set's "nuke". Blackstar is the nuke.

I think it is far to late for a name change or swap though.

Would have been a good idea if caught in beta.

 

 

Thumbs down on this.

I like using my ranged powers. Knock back keeps them away from me until I'm ready to rush in for a melee attack. In which case, I'm trying to knock them back again.

You can always slot Sudden Acceleration: Knockback to Knockdown if you don't like the knockback.

Besides, knockback is great fun when you have a tank that thinks that they should be the center of attention .. ALL THE TIME, because, you know, they are the tank.

 

 

Most of Mind Control is sleep related. As soon as they are disturbed they are free of the sleep.

I think sleep is mostly for stealthing versus combat or when  you have teammates that aren't spamming everything with AoEs.

 

But, the really obvious one is :: Mind Control: Telekinesis. Originally, it was a "grant teammate flight" power. But now it is, "Lifts a foe, and any nearby foes, off the ground and repels them. The targets are helpless, unable to take action, and will continue to hover away, picking up any passing targets, as long as you keep this power active. Keeping up this level of concentration costs a lot of Endurance."

Yep, floating off down the hallway or wherever, agro'ing more and more enemies until you turn it off. 

Seems bad?

Oh, just use in a Kill All! There is no telling where the enemies will run off to once you turn it off.

 

Gravity : Dimensional Shift? Has its uses.

 

Another thread was talking about Stealth: Evasion being pretty useless. You lose all the defense bonus if you go into combat.

 

Teleport: Team teleport - prank your team. Teleport them all a short distance against their will! (HINT :: Go see Nul the Gull to stop these teleporting pranksters!)

 

 Flight: Group Fly - much better than it used to be apparently, but haven't bothered to check

 

I think you are misusing a term.

Are you meaning "end-game"?

 

 

Around here, there are always going to be people that disagree with you, but don't let that stop you from saying what you feel you need to say.

 

 

 

Thank you for an insightful reply and conversation.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Czar said:

 

Dark Obliteration: Seriously if you are going to call a power something and put the word Obliteration in its name it needs to do more that lite damage. 

Originally this was Soul Mastery patron power available to brutes, dominators and VEATs, so nobody expected it to do much. For some reason it got added to Dark Blast for sentinels.

 

2 hours ago, Czar said:

ANYTHING Confuse & Deceive: Why bother unless you are soloing.  The targets insta die becuse due to the Magnitude of the control effect you can only effect minions and Lts and they die instantly in the current combat mechanics.

Try it on a dominator with Domination up.

 

2 hours ago, Czar said:

Darkest NIght: Even with the changes to the ability its effects no matter how you slot it are negligible.

The only change to this power since launch is that it now persists after the anchor is defeated. It's a huge -dmg/-tohit debuff. Very much worth using on AVs.

 

2 hours ago, Czar said:

Devastating blow: with a 3.2 ish second animation. your target is dead by teammates befor you even finish the animation. It is completely absurd. In this case I have noticed a strange .5 second gap in the animation jsut before the power the power goes off.  Useless in most cases, unless fighting an AV or GM

The animation definitely needs to be looked at. Particularly frustrating since you're not doing anything through most of it - just looks like you're trying to take a dump.

 

2 hours ago, Czar said:

There is a reason why few fenders and trollers are played in the game except for the most powerful or utilitarian, IE ice with the KD Lock down for entire groups or Kinetics  for the boosting. The rest are seldom used becuse they have few assets to offer a team over level 32.

Ummmm, no. Patently false.

TORCHBEARER:  Uun - Martial Arts/Invulnerability Scrapper | Uunison - Gravity/Storm Controller | Uuncola - Ice/Temporal Blaster | Uundergrowth - Plant/Martial Dominator
                           Uunreal - Fire/Time Corruptor | Uunknown - Mind/Psionic Dominator | Uunflappable - War Mace/Willpower Brute | Uundead - Dark/Dark Tank

EXCELSIOR:        Uunderdog - Radiation/Radiation Scrapper | Uundertaker - Radiation/Dark Corruptor | Uunstable - Super Reflexes/Staff Fighting Tanker | Uunseen - Illusion/Poison Controller

Uunrest - Dark/Tactical Arrow Blaster | Uuncool - Cold/Beam Rifle Defender | Uunderground - Earth/Earth Dominator | Uunplugged - Stone/Electric Brute | Uunfair - Archery/Trick Arrow Corruptor

Uunflammable - Fire/Nature Controller | Uunfit - Water/Martial Blaster | Uunwrapped - Dark/Dark Dominator

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2 hours ago, Czar said:

These are just what I've run across.. I know there are more. I feel as though due to the ALPHA level of the game that consideration needs to be taken into account as to how fast things are defeated in the game and how it effects the other combat aspects of the game, like the abilities above. There is a reason why few fenders and trollers are played in the game except for the most powerful or utilitarian, IE ice with the KD Lock down for entire groups or Kinetics  for the boosting. The rest are seldom used becuse they have few assets to offer a team over level 32. Now this is just my take. Im sure others will disagree and that's fine. 

 

There's a slight chance that support characters aren't your thing.  

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Some 50ss: Burner Account (Fire/FF Ctrl) | Dr. Unconventional (Ill/Dark Ctrl) | Lawn Boy (Plant/Nat Ctrl) | Magma Lad (Fire/Kin Ctrl) | Metcalf (Grav/Kin Ctrl) | IcyBM (Ice/Trap Ctrl) | Jim With The Weather (Ice/Storm Ctrl) | Dr. Jonas (Mind/Poison Ctrl) | Coldwire (Elec/Cold Ctrl) | Pyrotoxin (Fire/Poison Ctrl) | Nature Jack (Earth/Poison Ctrl) | Voltswagen (Dark/EA Ctrl) | Time Vampire (Grav/Time Ctrl) | Tootboy (Fire/FF Ctrl) | Polarrhoid (Ice/TA Ctrl) | LoLEnEn (En/En Blast) | Draw (Rad/Rad Def) | Destroyo (Bots/Trap MM) | Con Carne (Rad/Bio Brute) | Senor Smoke (Rad/Fire Brute) | Something Else (TW/Bio Scrap) | Thermador (Rad/Fire Brute) | Electrovox (EA/Son Def) Danzigawatt (Demons/EA MM) | Costumed Adventurer (Fire/EA Ctrl) | Obscured Face Guy (Dark/Storm Ctrl) | Ohm Gott (EA/Dark Def) | Full Recharge (Fire/Storm Ctrl) Spacegrass (Fire/Nat Ctrl) Embarrassing Wetness (Water/EA Corr) Weather Permitting (Ill/Storm Ctrl) Herr Fryer (Fire/Traps Ctrl) Rainiac (Grav/Storm Ctrl) Stokes (Fire/TA Ctrl) Dismembrandt (DB/Bio Scrap) Multidudes (Ill/Traps Ctrl) Meshuggenaut (Inv/RM tank) Miss October (Fire/Dark Ctrl) Spastic Colonial (Elec/Dark Ctrl) Heroic Pyromaniac (Fire/En Blast) Gigantic Robot (TW/Fire Brute| and there's more where THAT came from

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One thing I enjoy about Everlasting, is the Everlasting TFs channel with daily Hive and master incarnate raid trials.  Playing the actual endgame in well organized leagues shows just how essential controls and supports were meant to be. 

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Starwave  Wolfhound  Actionette  Nightlight

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3 hours ago, Czar said:

Since I have been back I have recreated many of my characters from Live. My experience so far has been that there are now so many useless abilities, particulary in Controllers and Defenders.. Most of these I consider useless due to the Maxie builds and incarnate system creating so much Alpha havok that everything dies so fast theres no reason to use them, but alas we take them, because there is nothing else or the option is even worse. Here are a few I just roll my eyes at. 

 

ANYTHING Confuse & Deceive: Why bother unless you are soloing.  The targets insta die becuse due to the Magnitude of the control effect you can only effect minions and Lts and they die instantly in the current combat mechanics.

 

Darkest NIght: Even with the changes to the ability its effects no matter how you slot it are negligible.

 

Dark Obliteration: Seriously if you are going to call a power something and put the word Obliteration in its name it needs to do more that lite damage. 

 

Enflame: Has the potential to be a good ability but for it's rank cost and end cost the damge is laughable above level 30. +3 +3 +3 +3 

 

Energy Tansfer: Hey I know..... Imma kill myself...

 

Devastating blow: with a 3.2 ish second animation. your target is dead by teammates befor you even finish the animation. It is completely absurd. In this case I have noticed a strange .5 second gap in the animation jsut before the power the power goes off.  Useless in most cases, unless fighting an AV or GM

 

PB & WS: Fer crying out loud! Just switch the KB to KD on these guys and be done with it. If the player wants KB then they can enhnace it for KB and get the team ire for it.

 

These are just what I've run across.. I know there are more. I feel as though due to the ALPHA level of the game that consideration needs to be taken into account as to how fast things are defeated in the game and how it effects the other combat aspects of the game, like the abilities above. There is a reason why few fenders and trollers are played in the game except for the most powerful or utilitarian, IE ice with the KD Lock down for entire groups or Kinetics  for the boosting. The rest are seldom used becuse they have few assets to offer a team over level 32. Now this is just my take. Im sure others will disagree and that's fine. 

 

 

I can appreciate the sentiment. When the Next Big Thing comes to open testing, it is designed to specifically address these kinds of issues and add more versatility to all ATs.

 

It's not a widespread systems change but an experiment in re-establishing benefits to AT diversity. If the experiment goes well, it will inform our design decisions going forward.

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"Science. Science, my friend, requires radical gambles and adventures in malpractice sometimes. Take solace in the fact that I tested the majority of these things on the dead, the re-dead, and the nearly departed before I went to live trials.

 

Honestly, most of my "specimens" were several iterations past being considered a human being with their original fingerprints, teeth, or IDs. So it was rather a lot like experimenting on moaning clay putty."

 


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6 minutes ago, Piecemeal said:

I can appreciate the sentiment. When the Next Big Thing comes to open testing, it is designed to specifically address these kinds of issues and add more versatility to all ATs.

 

It's not a widespread systems change but an experiment in re-establishing benefits to AT diversity. If the experiment goes well, it will inform our design decisions going forward.

That one of the most exciting and at the same time scariest thing I have ever read on these forums

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Just now, SuperPlyx said:

That one of the most exciting and at the same time scariest thing I have ever read on these forums

 

I just wouldn't be me if I didn't give you feelings of joy and terror simultaneously.

 

I call it Terrilation.

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"Science. Science, my friend, requires radical gambles and adventures in malpractice sometimes. Take solace in the fact that I tested the majority of these things on the dead, the re-dead, and the nearly departed before I went to live trials.

 

Honestly, most of my "specimens" were several iterations past being considered a human being with their original fingerprints, teeth, or IDs. So it was rather a lot like experimenting on moaning clay putty."

 


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8 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Have you made this alt yet? 


If I made the character, it would basically be the Posh haircut on a person yelling at a manager. A sub-Karen named Terri, I imagine.

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"Science. Science, my friend, requires radical gambles and adventures in malpractice sometimes. Take solace in the fact that I tested the majority of these things on the dead, the re-dead, and the nearly departed before I went to live trials.

 

Honestly, most of my "specimens" were several iterations past being considered a human being with their original fingerprints, teeth, or IDs. So it was rather a lot like experimenting on moaning clay putty."

 


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38 minutes ago, Piecemeal said:

 

I can appreciate the sentiment. When the Next Big Thing comes to open testing, it is designed to specifically address these kinds of issues and add more versatility to all ATs.

 

It's not a widespread systems change but an experiment in re-establishing benefits to AT diversity. If the experiment goes well, it will inform our design decisions going forward.

Would it be safe for me to finally roll out a sentinel?

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Just now, A Cat said:

Would it be safe for me to finally roll out a sentinel?

 

There's plenty of brainpower in the dev room on Sentinels, stay tuned!

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"Science. Science, my friend, requires radical gambles and adventures in malpractice sometimes. Take solace in the fact that I tested the majority of these things on the dead, the re-dead, and the nearly departed before I went to live trials.

 

Honestly, most of my "specimens" were several iterations past being considered a human being with their original fingerprints, teeth, or IDs. So it was rather a lot like experimenting on moaning clay putty."

 


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Personally, I'd hate to see the challenge-less "let's just press a few aoes and delete all the critters in sight" playstyle be catered to even more than it already is.

 

I'd rather see more challenging content with commensurate and exclusive (so that you can't get them by participating in abovementioned playstyle in an AE farm) rewards that actually makes such niche abilities more useful. I was pretty tickled to blow up half a vahz mob by confusing one of their suicide bombers, why aren't there more situations where this is the optimal tactic?

 

No increases to the dpa of any powers, and especially no increases to aoe damage, please. Also, absolutely no removal of knockback from any powers. Knockback is a disadvantage, but one that you can turn into an advantage with proper use of IOs, terrain or tactics. That's something that should be more prevalent in powerset design. 

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Just now, Miss Magical said:

Personally, I'd hate to see the challenge-less "let's just press a few aoes and delete all the critters in sight" playstyle be catered to even more than it already is.

 

I'd rather see more challenging content with commensurate and exclusive rewards that actually makes such niche abilities more useful. I was pretty tickled to blow up half a vahz mob by confusing one of their suicide bombers, why aren't there more situations where this is the optimal tactic?

 

No increases to the dpa of any powers, and especially no increases to aoe damage, please. Also, absolutely no removal of knockback from any powers. Knockback is a disadvantage, but one that you can turn into an advantage with proper use of IOs, terrain or tactics. That's something that should be more prevalent in powerset design. 

 

It's like you read @Cobalt Arachne's diary. Get on Brainstorm when the beta launches, and you'll be chuffed to bits and such with how your precognition found itself in the ballpark!

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"Science. Science, my friend, requires radical gambles and adventures in malpractice sometimes. Take solace in the fact that I tested the majority of these things on the dead, the re-dead, and the nearly departed before I went to live trials.

 

Honestly, most of my "specimens" were several iterations past being considered a human being with their original fingerprints, teeth, or IDs. So it was rather a lot like experimenting on moaning clay putty."

 


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3 minutes ago, Miss Magical said:

Personally, I'd hate to see the challenge-less "let's just press a few aoes and delete all the critters in sight" playstyle be catered to even more than it already is.

 

I'd rather see more challenging content with commensurate and exclusive (so that you can't get them by participating in abovementioned playstyle in an AE farm) rewards that actually makes such niche abilities more useful. I was pretty tickled to blow up half a vahz mob by confusing one of their suicide bombers, why aren't there more situations where this is the optimal tactic?

 

No increases to the dpa of any powers, and especially no increases to aoe damage, please. Also, absolutely no removal of knockback from any powers. Knockback is a disadvantage, but one that you can turn into an advantage with proper use of IOs, terrain or tactics. That's something that should be more prevalent in powerset design. 

 

I don't disagree with this.  I'd think some aoe abilities actually need to be toned down a tad so people feel better getting off their long animating powers and other things like control and support feel more noticeable. 

 

Knockback is fine and all but I do think Bonfire as it is is broken.  Fix some control in Fire and fix this exploit as well as a few other obvious exploitable powers.  

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1 minute ago, Sovera said:

And now we wait. Good job Piecemeal, now I need to find it in me to sleep after that shot of news in the vein.

 

I go into hibernation mode waiting for that day new stuff drops.

 

If I had a stasis chamber I'd be using that, but alas, I'm not allowed to bring mine on planet. 😉 

 

(one or more of these statements may have falsehoods) 😄 

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I've been roused from my den of evil. 👀

People who like a challenge and feel that the current the endgame has become too homogenized are in for lots of good news and things that will kill their Tier 4 incarnates and 50+5 IO builds. 


That being said people who like things right where they are now shouldn't be worried either.
We're dedicated to ensuring that everyone can enjoy this game the way they like moving forward, there will be options to move the difficulty ceiling up for those who are looking for it, but the floor where it exists isn't moving.

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