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Dedicated Archetypes


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1 hour ago, skoryy said:

 

Is it me or does anyone else remember that thread was started by a different account name?

 

Probably just you.  Wayback Machine capture from the 24/9/20 has the same username, so unless it was changed in the intervening couple of weeks, that's the original name.

 

ETA: I've just realised that usernames stay the same in quoted posts, even if they're later changed, so no, the OP's username hasn't changed.

Edited by Grouchybeast

Reunion player, ex-Defiant.

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5 hours ago, Carnifax said:

I've no idea what a 'dedicated' Mastermind is supposed to be. 

Someone constantly resummoning pets because they keep dying? But hey, at least they’re doing Brawl-equivalent damage with their personal primary attacks!

 

How long should I put off getting my status protection power, just because it’s in my secondary power set? Or my blaster sustain ability?

 

Don’t even want to imagine what a ‘dedicated’ kheldian or arachnos is supposed to be…

 

Can’t help but think this is vague, poorly worded build advice rather than anything useful. 

 

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13 hours ago, Diantane said:

When I play an archetype, I dedicate myself. If I'm a defender my job is to support the team. So I will train my primary support powers with all priority. I only train an attack if that's all I can and my pool powers are complete.  When either a 50/50 defender or a dedicated defender joins a team, everyone sees the difference right away. As a dedicated defender that has slotted all of the primary powers for buffs and debuffs (not for damage) the team will thank you for it and possibly ask you to join them on other teams.

 

People explained all this a year ago, but this is a very misguided approach to getting maximum utility from Defenders.

 

Defenders have much higher values on the secondary effects from their attacks, which directly adds to their utility as a support toon.  For example, when a Defender uses Shriek from the Sonic Attack set, they apply a 20% Damage Resistance debuff to the enemy.  That's a 20% damage buff not just to your attacks but to every single attack the party lands in the next 5 seconds.  And during that 5 seconds you could fire off Scream, which, guess what, applies a 20% resistance debuff for 7 seconds.  Congratulations, you have just done your job as a Defender and buffed the party's damage!

 

The same applies to all the other Defender attack secondary effects, like -Def, -To Hit, -Rech, Slow etc.  If you don't use your attacks as a Defender, you are cheating the rest of the party out of a good chunk of your support utility.

 

(To be fair, people will still invite you to join groups, because CoX is not a difficult game, and a lot of the people who play it are very nice and will either assume you're playing some weird concept build, or just that your build is not very good and kind of inoffensively gimped.  At the most someone might suggest slotting some attacks, or offer you some inf on the assumption that you're a newbie.)

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13 hours ago, Diantane said:

As a dedicated archetype let others know this, "L16 Dedicated Sonic Defender LFT or L26 Dedicated Alpha Tank LFT. You will be recruited before others every time!

 

Oh you'll be letting others know something about you alright.  I just doubt it's what you think.

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Wouldn't taking only powers from your primary be less dedication to your archetype? An archetype is defined by its primary and secondary. What separates a Controller from a Dominator? A Blaster from a Corruptor? Archetypes are kinda defined by how their primary and secondary sets synergize with each other to form their playstyles. Sure you can make an effective build by focusing on purely your primary, which is the beauty of how CoH handles builds so that really anything can be viable with smart slotting. But that's not being dedicated to your archetype, that's being dedicated to that powerset.

If you play a shield tank and skip all of your secondary powers, you aren't a dedicated tanker, you're a dedicated Shield Defense character. Being dedicated to your archetype should mean using all the tools provided to that archetype to fill its role in a team. A "dedicated tank" should be one that does take the attacks from their secondary, because a tank's role isn't just to not die, but to control a mob's aggro and make themselves a bigger target than less survivable team members. A Tanker that just turns on every toggle and sits in the middle of a mob spamming their tier 1 attack power and little else isn't going to have an easy time with that part of their role. Alternatively a Brute's role is typically more for sustained DPS, but if you're skipping most of your secondary powers on a Brute... Well, good luck trying to maintain your fury bar and churn out big damage when you're face down on the floor under the feet of  that tank that's sitting in the middle of the mob and not holding the enemies' aggro.

 

Similar things can be said about pretty much every other archetype and their intended roles. A defender supports the team and keeps them alive through buffs, debuffs, and healing. Their secondaries often provide another avenue to debuff enemies as most of their attacks do have additional effects to them like -res, -def, -tohit, etc. As well as the most effective debuff: Raw damage, because the easiest enemy to survive a fight against is one that's already dead. How about Masterminds? Their secondary sets are support, which is great for an archetype that is focused around relying on their pets to do damage and control aggro, because your pets can't do that effectively when they're dying every encounter. So you take your secondary support powers to keep them (and by extension the rest of your team) alive to do what they're intended to to.

 

So if you really want to be dedicated to an archetype's intended role and purpose? Take your secondary powers. They're there for a reason. They aren't just fun little extras, they are a vital part of how your archetype plays and how it fulfills its role in a team. They aren't a waste of space that take up slots from your primary, they are valuable tools to accomplish your archetype's goals. Tanks and Defenders need their attacks. Masterminds and Controllers need their support powers. Brutes and Scrappers need their defensive powers. So on and so forth.

tl;dr: Secondary powers are there for a reason, an AT is not defined by its primary. It's defined by how its primary and secondary compliment each other. Skipping your secondary is not truly dedicating yourself to your archetype's role and intended design. Play how you want to play, by all means, but do so with an understanding of how the game really works and the intentions of it design.

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14 hours ago, Diantane said:

Started a Dedicated Mastermind yesterday and leveled in team today from 8 to 27. He is Beast/Kin. Every Beast power is trained and well slotted. Only two kinetic powers are trained (transfusion by default) and Siphon Power. So my primary attack set is well covered. I'm not just standing there watching my pets attack. I'm totally engaged in combat and having a blast doing it too.

So you are "totally engaged" as a MM at level 27 while only having Transfusion and Siphon Power? You don't even have a staple Kin powers Speed Boost or Siphon Speed. What are you doing instead, using MM attacks? (chuckles) As someone who has taken Kin to 50 more than once with one being my main for years and a MM to 50, I got a headshaking chuckle out of this. I mean, how the hell a /kin at 27 gets thanks for being dedicated while not having one of the two signature powers is beyond me.

 

(dedicated butt kicker, lfxp)

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While I suspect troll, I would like to respond all the same.

 

1. "Most effective" (Dedicated role) firstly is largely subjective, both within the multiple powerset combinations as well as personal preference. Not all Radiation Tankers will be slotted the same. Nor would all Dark Armors, and so on. This goes for all armor sets, and its's largely give and take. Taking dark for an example, you could focus entirely on resistance values, and suffer with END use, and so on. Moreover, not everyone will enjoy the same slotting, or even have the same purpose/use/difficulty/budget in mind. And heaven forbid, someone does something "just for fun."

 

2. The OP speaks as if "Dedicated Role" and "Other Roles" are mutually exclusive here. Using their tanker as an example, it is entirely possible to build a tanker that has defense softcap, resistance cap, has good status resistance, good damage, and manages its END well. It need not be Either/Or. I do suspect that the level up process and the budget for a build affects this, as it might be best to focus on one area, but at level cap? Not so! Using the Tanker as an example once again, it is entirely possible to build a scrapper who can tank 90% of the content just as well as a "Dedicated Tank" can, and do more damage in the bargain. Again, this varies with levels, inf spent, and a number of other factors. 

 

3. I have played many MMO's and I would argue that "Dedicated Roles" are virtually nonexistent here. I would suggest the AT control more if you are melee vs ranged, damage vs defensive, CC vs Support, and more. It is the "feel" of the character as you will, and you can even break this down further within each AT powerset combination itself - is it single target damage? Area damage? Damage types? Debuffs such as -regen? How well does it  solo? How well does it team? Is it a smooth ride from level 1 all the way to level 50, or is it a late bloomer? How much inf will it take to make it flow? How well would it do if "money was no object"? There are entire scopes and aspects of the game more than "I am Tanker. I am Tough."

 

4. "Dedicated Roles" largely, aren't even needed here. One need not look further than Tanker Tuesdays where a group made entirely of tankers accomplish tasks. There are even mastermind groups and the like. The trinity of "Tank, Healer, DPS" doesn't exist here. It CAN if people focus on that when making their teams, but you really can put together a team of any possible combinations and make it work. Again, this is personal preference, but it is hardly REQUIRED for nearly any of the activities to enjoy in CoH.

 

5. And finally, I would argue all this... is a good thing, A grand thing, even. You truly can build your character from nothing - their powers, how they play/perform, their looks, their strengths, their weaknesses. All of this and more.. ..nearly without limit. If I wanted a game with "dedicated classes" where I HAD to play X class a certain way, well, no offense to City of Heroes, its community, or its staff, but there are other games out there aplenty if I wanted that sort of gameplay.

 

6. Part of the wonderful thing about CoH is the sheer freedom you have with your characters. So much so, that we should begin a community support group for those among our ranks suffering from the dreaded "alt-itis." Meaning people who feel so inspired for whatever reason, to roll character, after character, after character. We have 1000 slots for a reason. And personally, I find that people making such a dizzying array of characters, and are even encouraged to do so within the game world a good thing and a sign of City of Hero's success after its creation, more than a decade after it all began.

 

7. Anyway, back to the OP. A dedicated role is all fine and well, IF that's how YOU want to play. But make no mistake, CoH has so many layers of combat and mechanics in play, that I have found focusing on one "aspect" of it, only goes so far. Again, taking your tanker as an example, lets say you are focusing entirely on +DEF, to all else. Your defense is higher than anyone elses! You are the Supreme tank, right? Well, no, not really. This will work until the moment you run into enemies with -def debuffs, then suddenly your superior "dedicated role" of betting it all entirely on one thing, falls flat. In such a situation you would suddenly be rely on your resistances, healing, and other forms of sustainability. Le Gasp! Suddenly you, the Dedicated Tank go splat, while that stalker you sneered at happens to have more resistance than you, and finds themselves tanking like a pro. You might scoff, but I have seen it happen. Many times. This exact scenario in fact.

 

In closing, I would highlight that there are many factors on what is good or bad, better or worse, and not everyone is going to agree. This is particularly true during level up and starting out. But we are able to "respec" for a reason, and can even have more than 1 build that you can swap between as you like between activities. With so many other factors against the "Dedicated role" train of thought, I would actually argue against it. But that is my personal preference.

 

Just my opinions on the matter. City of Heroes is very much a "play your way" game, and that's partially why I love it so, and I suspect a great many feel the same.

 

Best wishes to all, dedicated role or not.

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I don't necessarily think the OP is talking about this in the context of how they want to play the game to 50 and beyond. Based on his/her other posts they mostly struggle early game, into the 30s. Maybe they give up at that point and start another toon.

 

I can see where they are coming from, not that I agree with them on this "dedicated playstyle." However I have the benefit of being able to fund my builds and I also have the benefit of having a lot of experience with the game.

 

When you are poor and only using DOs you need to invest more slots into powers just to get proper enhancement values. Some sets also front load good power picks so that it's easy to lean really heavily into just the primary early game. It's not uncommon to see some tanker/defender builds with only 1 attack until level 10 or beyond, and less than 4 attacks when they reach level 30. In addition, when you don't understand team dynamics or simply play with other poor players that don't understand teams it's easy to think "I need to do one thing that I'm designed for so I can contribute to the team as much as I can."

 

Some builds mature later than others and up to that point you can potentially be playing a "dedicated build," I don't really see anything wrong with that.

Edited by Nemu
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Liberty, Torchbearer, Excelsior, Everlasting

Jezebel Delias

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22 minutes ago, Nemu said:

I don't necessarily think the OP is talking about this in the context of how they want to play the game to 50 and beyond. Based on his/her other posts they mostly struggle early game, into the 30s. Maybe they give up at that point and start another toon.

 

I can see where they are coming from, not that I agree with them on this "dedicated playstyle." However I have the benefit of being able to fund my builds and I also have the benefit of having a lot of experience with the game.

 

When you are poor and only using DOs you need to invest more slots into powers just to get proper enhancement values. Some sets also front load good power picks so that it's easy to lean really heavily into just the primary early game. It's not uncommon to see some tanker/defender builds with only 1 attack until level 10 or beyond, and less than 4 attacks when they reach level 30. In addition, when you don't understand team dynamics or simply play with other poor players that don't understand teams it's easy to think "I need to do one thing that I'm designed for so I can contribute to the team as much as I can."

 

Some builds mature later than others and up to that point you can potentially be playing a "dedicated build," I don't really see anything wrong with that.

Yes, that’s exactly what we have here. I keep telling the OP to wait and see before continuing to pass more judgements on how the game works without having a clue what the endgame feels like.

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16 hours ago, Diantane said:

The same goes for the tank. A 50/50 tank will be weak on a team. They won't do much damage and die just like any other player.

 

As a newer player, I quickly learned that in this game tanks, and melee characters in general, have a lot more survivability than required in normal gameplay. There don't seem to be any enemies that hit hard enough to require the defenses they have. Conversely, there are enough low-hanging fruit to increase survivability that you don't need to specialize for it -- a steadfast protection unique and Gladiator's armor unique is an easy 6% def to all for 2 slots; that's almost 4/5ths of a fully enhanced Weave.

 

My first tank was a Fire/SS, which is the defensively weakest armor set, and I was able to solo an ITF at 54x8 on it, on a build that did not have softcapped defense (only 16% def to all). To die on that character I have to mismanage my endurance, or turn on challenge settings like no insps/enemies buffed/player debuffed. That goes to show how overtuned armor defenses in this game are.

 

I do take key powers from the primary on my defenders and tanks, but I prioritize damage wherever possible, usually not by slotting directly for it, but by stuffing attacks full of procs. I find that in this game you can have 75% of two things instead of 100% of one and 0% of the other, and the former is far more effective. That's because you've left out the very important second half of that aphorism up there: "Jack of all trades, master of none, but better than a master of one."

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35 minutes ago, Nemu said:

I don't necessarily think the OP is talking about this in the context of how they want to play the game to 50 and beyond. Based on his/her other posts they mostly struggle early game, into the 30s. Maybe they give up at that point and start another toon.

 

See what Lumi posted on the previous page. They've been posting and playing for over a year now. 

Edited by skoryy

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The lack of a Tom Cruise sweater as a profile image gives me the impression that these posts aren't trolling, but genuine difficulty breaking from old habits and assumptions perpetuated by other games.  People are creatures of habit, and some folks have much more difficulty breaking free from habits and the assumptions that spawned them than others.  I also suspect there are some other factors at play, but I have no real evidence to back it up, so I'll continue to also give benefits of doubt here.

 

Simplest advice for you @Diantane:  

Try to forget everything any other game has taught you before now, and learn City of Heroes from a fresh perspective.  

Things are different here.

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This is a general discussion post, so I feel inclined to add my response to the OP. Archetypes were important to how the game was played on release back in 2004. Archetypes followed key roles that balanced each other together in a multiplayer environment, so that as the difficulty of the content increased, the need for each role became more apparent. 

 

If you've stuck with this game since then, you'll be aware of the reality that archetypes are really just a formality now. Epic and Patron Pool Powers, temporary powers, heck even Day Jobs and P2W powers offer a little bit of everything, so a Defender can play like a Tank or a Peacebringer can fill the role of a Scrapper (though this is more inherent to the archetype than others). With this Freeeeeedom, players can do whatever they want nowadays. They aren't consigned to a specific role that only works "best" with specific builds.

 

The game is back, play how you want to. But when you are teaming with other players, I ask that you try not to make other players feel left out if their "set role or archetype" isn't being fulfilled on a team. 

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1 hour ago, skoryy said:

 

See what Lumi posted on the previous page. They've been posting and playing for over a year now. 

Not everyone that comes to homecoming begs for a god tier build and PL their way to 50 and then act like they know all there is to know about this game. I haven't seen many posts from the OP asking for God Tier builds. Based on his/her previous posts they are just taking the game in at the base level, not a whole lot of IOs, no optimized builds, etc...

 

It took me almost 2 years on live to get my first 50 and many more to really understand the game. Some people play very casually, I see long time posters that can't even come up with a decent build on their own, others that still think that blasters are strictly a ranged AT and ignore their entire secondary (how many people will form a lynch mob and rag on a poster about that? not as many as when someone says I wanna make a pure tank or a pure healer I guarantee you. The hypocrisy is real,) others don't know anything about lore (like me). I don't see 12 months as a meaningful metric to how competent posters are on these forums.

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Jezebel Delias

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20 hours ago, Diantane said:

Often I'll see a tank or a defender that has trained a lot of their early attacks. Like they are going to play just like a tank/scrapper or defender/blaster (50/50). The problem with that is since the attacks are in their secondary power-set, they will be weaker than a primary set would be. So they have become a "jack of all trades, but master of none."

 

When I play an archetype, I dedicate myself. If I'm a defender my job is to support the team. So I will train my primary support powers with all priority. I only train an attack if that's all I can and my pool powers are complete.  When either a 50/50 defender or a dedicated defender joins a team, everyone sees the difference right away. As a dedicated defender that has slotted all of the primary powers for buffs and debuffs (not for damage) the team will thank you for it and possibly ask you to join them on other teams.

 

The same goes for the tank. A 50/50 tank will be weak on a team. They won't do much damage and die just like any other player. As a dedicated tank all of your defenses are trained and well slotted. So you can run into a large group of foes and taunt them to you. Be able to handle the "Alpha Strike" every time and protect your team. Those that are dedicated Defenders that heal very well, will bring your health after the alpha up to maximum very quickly. They won't be firing off weak weapons, but concentrating on keeping the team alive.

 

This goes with any archetype. I've also played dedicated controllers. Everything slotted with holds, slows, confuse, defense debuffs, to-hit debuffs, etc. (never damage).  Started a Dedicated Mastermind yesterday and leveled in team today from 8 to 27. He is Beast/Kin. Every Beast power is trained and well slotted. Only two kinetic powers are trained (transfusion by default) and Siphon Power. So my primary attack set is well covered. I'm not just standing there watching my pets attack. I'm totally engaged in combat and having a blast doing it too.

 

After your dedicated archetype has all of their primary powers trained and slotted (mid 30's) you can start training the higher tier attacks that will do much more damage, but you'll never play that character the same way as others play theirs, ever again.

 

As a dedicated archetype let others know this, "L16 Dedicated Sonic Defender LFT or L26 Dedicated Alpha Tank LFT. You will be recruited before others every time!

 

 

Hooo boy are you wrong on many levels...This is CoH, we don't do that here. At all.

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20 hours ago, Diantane said:

Obviously you just read the title, skimmed the post and made your reply. You just don't understand the power of a dedicated archetype. If a plain tank that trained anything ran into a group of purple foes, they are going to die and die quickly. 

 

Look chief, dedicated ATs are a waste of space on the team. If all you slot is defense, you will be left behind in endgame content, or hell any content for that matter.  You don't understand CoH, but you will when my Ice/Fire BLASTER tanks the mobs your "dedicated" tank is supposed to be getting. Or my Barrier from my widow completely invalidates your entire dedicated healer. Not defender, because thats not what they are, you are a healer.

 

Your mindset is outdated, and that's coming from a guy who played since i6.

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20 hours ago, Diantane said:

Often I'll see a tank or a defender that has trained a lot of their early attacks. Like they are going to play just like a tank/scrapper or defender/blaster (50/50). The problem with that is since the attacks are in their secondary power-set, they will be weaker than a primary set would be. So they have become a "jack of all trades, but master of none."

 

When I play an archetype, I dedicate myself. If I'm a defender my job is to support the team. So I will train my primary support powers with all priority. I only train an attack if that's all I can and my pool powers are complete.  When either a 50/50 defender or a dedicated defender joins a team, everyone sees the difference right away. As a dedicated defender that has slotted all of the primary powers for buffs and debuffs (not for damage) the team will thank you for it and possibly ask you to join them on other teams.

 

The same goes for the tank. A 50/50 tank will be weak on a team. They won't do much damage and die just like any other player. As a dedicated tank all of your defenses are trained and well slotted. So you can run into a large group of foes and taunt them to you. Be able to handle the "Alpha Strike" every time and protect your team. Those that are dedicated Defenders that heal very well, will bring your health after the alpha up to maximum very quickly. They won't be firing off weak weapons, but concentrating on keeping the team alive.

 

This goes with any archetype. I've also played dedicated controllers. Everything slotted with holds, slows, confuse, defense debuffs, to-hit debuffs, etc. (never damage).  Started a Dedicated Mastermind yesterday and leveled in team today from 8 to 27. He is Beast/Kin. Every Beast power is trained and well slotted. Only two kinetic powers are trained (transfusion by default) and Siphon Power. So my primary attack set is well covered. I'm not just standing there watching my pets attack. I'm totally engaged in combat and having a blast doing it too.

 

After your dedicated archetype has all of their primary powers trained and slotted (mid 30's) you can start training the higher tier attacks that will do much more damage, but you'll never play that character the same way as others play theirs, ever again.

 

As a dedicated archetype let others know this, "L16 Dedicated Sonic Defender LFT or L26 Dedicated Alpha Tank LFT. You will be recruited before others every time!

 

 

Hold the hell up. I KNOW you did not just screw over Kin by skipping speed boost, the only useful thing they provide to the team besides fulcrum and sometimes transference. Delete your MM thanks.

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On 9/22/2021 at 3:31 AM, Carnifax said:

There's a bit of a disconnect here between the OP over the last week saying very basic things ingame don't work (The Market being too expensive, Blasters, Controller AoE mezzes, Support and Arctic Air) and then coming up with "This is how you should build your character"

 

You can of course make a dedicated tank. He'll be very boring however (and most of my characters will laugh at you if you insist you should be first in. Even the squishies). 

 

I've no idea what a 'dedicated' Mastermind is supposed to be. 

It seems we have a person who has found the game and is passionate about what they are finding out about it

 

i know it is hard to believe.  I have been incorrect about things in some of my posts.  *looks at suggestion thread for increasing sentinel resist caps last week, facepalm.   
 

Yet we all come to the boards to post ideas and get feedback.  Enjoy the journey

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Think of a teenager who thinks they know all the things.

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Current obsession(s): Dual boxing CoV(Savage/rad brute, Dark/savage tank)

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On 9/21/2021 at 11:40 PM, Diantane said:

Often I'll see a tank or a defender that has trained a lot of their early attacks. Like they are going to play just like a tank/scrapper or defender/blaster (50/50). The problem with that is since the attacks are in their secondary power-set, they will be weaker than a primary set would be.

Not seeing an issue here.  Unless I miscounted, you end up with 24 powers, so you can have ALL of the primary AND all of the secondary, with six left over for pool powers.  You can clearly take every secondary power without gimping your 'primary function'.  And, since most sets have one or more skippable powers, you have even more leeway.

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On 9/21/2021 at 11:40 PM, Diantane said:

As a dedicated archetype let others know this, "L16 Dedicated Sonic Defender LFT or L26 Dedicated Alpha Tank LFT. You will be recruited before others every time!

 

Elitism is Elitism.

If it make you feel Superior, then you are an Elitist.

I'll make sure not to invite "dedicated", players to my teams. My teams simply wouldn't be good enough for their elitist attitudes.

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On 9/22/2021 at 2:53 AM, Diantane said:

He could take alphas until he was 30, then he lost the edge.

 

All tank sets are built with a hole in them intentionally. Their Achilles' heel as it were.

You run into the enemy type that you are weak to and you are going to go down. They have your number.

 

 

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Just to make a point, I ran with two teams this morning doing Apex/TM.

 

One team was 1 sent, 1 blaster, the rest trollers and fenders.

 

One team was 2 blasters, the rest cors and trollers.

 

We steamrolled the hell out of those 4 mishs.

 

There was no melee whatsoever.

 

People were all over the board for powerpicks and power sets, yet the slowest we ran of the 4 mishs was 19 minutes, the rest 17 or under.

 

If you would like to see how a carefree, no tank, no melee team works, message my global. I am on excelsior. I will take any scrub thats available, from level 1 to level 50, and guarantee you will be surprised, and might even change your mind. 

 

Level 1 scrubs can DEFINITELY be helpful, believe it or not. (trick arrow, that net thingy that does huge -resist for example, that you pick up at level 1).

 

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1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

 

All tank sets are built with a hole in them intentionally. Their Achilles' heel as it were.

You run into the enemy type that you are weak to and you are going to go down. They have your number.

 

 

Well yes and no. You can plug those holes completely with IO’s if you really want to. Though the caveat is I often neglect to plug a hole in favor of more damage.

 

I guess you can’t plug absolutely everything though. My Dark tanks can only access so much DDR from Ageless Radial, which I wouldn’t get to begin with on toons built to be hooked on Ageless Core.

Edited by arcane
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