What is the ideology of the Council?

[Palehood]

Just want to know their storyline so I can enjoy the plot of the game more. They don't think in a Fascist-like way like the 5th Column right?So they are the usual typical want-to-rule -the-world bad guys  minus the racism?I came across one of those wikis but they never described the ideology of the Council.

[arcane]

How can you try to rule the world without being fascist?

Edited October 20, 2021 by arcane

[A Cat]

Fascism predates Nazism, and afaik doesn't really obsess over racialism like the Nazis. Also, iirc the 5th Column, despite the German names, was also aligned with the Italian fascists in game lore. Nazism is a specific type of fascist, like the square and rectangle thing.

 

17 minutes ago, arcane said:

How can you try to rule the world without being fascist?

There are a lot of empires that predates fascism, or even the concept of nationalism or nations. 

[Drakwatch]

I've always imagined them to be the second half of the 5th Column - Nazi splinter groups formed after World War 2. The Council was formed from within the 5th Column, so you can use deductive reasoning to assume that they are a fascist organization that believes in race dominance and eugenics (super soldiers, human augmentation, ect.) The thing that separates the Council slightly is their alliance with the Nictus and their ultimate goal for the Path of the Dark. (https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Path_of_the_Dark). 

[TheZag]

When the council replaced the 5th column back on the retail servers it pretty much felt like it was just the devs trying to move away from the nazi references.  But we just got nazis from space instead of nazis from earth.  Change the name,  slap on a fresh coat of paint and presto,  no more nazis.

[The_Warpact]

Regardless if hero or villain, just kill them.

[PeregrineFalcon]

27 minutes ago, arcane said:

How can you try to rule the world without being fascist?

Fascism is a specific political ideology. It doesn't just mean "anyone that I dislike" or "anyone that voted for Orange Man." For example: if the Queen of England ended up ruling the world she wouldn't be a fascist, she'd still be a monarch.

 

The Chinese communist party believes in rule by an Oligarchy, a ruling council, whereas Fascism believes in rule by one strong man. So, while they are similar, the Chinese are not fascists.

 

5 minutes ago, A Cat said:

Also, iirc the 5th Column, despite the German names, was also aligned with the Italian fascists in game lore.

The 5th Column was originally a Nazi super group that came to America and fought against our heroes during WW2. They were Nazis and, like the real Nazis, were aligned with the fascists.

 

[Verfall]

I vaguely remember talk of them being more Italian style facism versus the 5th's Nazi ideology. The Center is definitely giving out Mussolini vibes.

[Psyonico]

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/The_Center

 

Paolo Tirelli was a low-level Italian dignitary who went on to become the Council's revered Center.

 

 

[catsi563]

my understanding was that the 5th column were facists and Nazis of course  but they were infiltrated by what would become the council who were controlled by aliens specifically the Nictus who made it a habit of infiltrating regimes and conquering them from within. this would lead to the 5th columns breaking from and war with the council

[Greycat]

27 minutes ago, catsi563 said:

my understanding was that the 5th column were facists and Nazis of course

 

OK, no. This needs to be talked out, as that's not an "of course."

 

Nazis are fascists. Fascists are not necessarily Nazis. Franco, for instance, was an authoritarian with a lot of fascist tendancies, but was not a Nazi.

The 5th Column came from Italy, and would quite literally have been Fascist (Mussolini's party and ideology.)

 

Fascism is:

- Ultraconservative (right wing,) politically

- Very nationalistic (and typically mixes it with militarism)

- Antidemocratic - elections might get them into power, but they want nothing to do with them afterward.

- Socially conservative - typically looking back to the "traditional" roles, men working, women having babies and housekeeping, etc.

- Tied with that, they'll tend to be very classist, pushing a social order / rule by elites

- The nation tends to be more important than the individual.

 

Other things are added or stressed differently in individual "flavors" of fascism, but those will usually define it.

 

That being said - are the 5th or the Council all that fascist? They're obviously militaristic, women are rare in their (public) ranks, they seem to be ono the conservative and classist side, but they're missing that nationalistic flavor. It's something that would make sense to be a WWII-era enemy - they were sent over as a fifth column, to hamper the US / Allies in fighting against their home nation and allies, after all. But there's no longer a home (fascist) state aligned with them to fight for or support.

 

It's *possible* the 5th Column would be aiming at "revolution in the US to turn IT into a fascist state, then spreading it." Which leaves the main question, to me, of "would they survive the Center being taken out?" Or would they just be a paramilitary group then?

 

That said, the OP's asking about the Council, which has its own goals, and I'm not sure they fall under "fascist" any more. They're not nationalistic, they're being driven (at least behind the scenes, somewhat) by the Nictus to attempt an invasion in *their* war against the Peacebringers.  Sure, the Nictus would be glad to take over, they'd be authoritarian, by the lore docs (and this doesn't seem to indicate any sort of change by the time we ssee what's in game) they're certainly classist, but they'd mostly use the Earth for resources and for a base. They may have an outer crust of fascism, just from their origins, but I don't think it goes down to the Council's gooey center. At least as I'm remembering lore.

 

Regardless, they all need a good punching.

[PeregrineFalcon]

11 minutes ago, Greycat said:

The 5th Column came from Italy, and would quite literally have been Fascist (Mussolini's party and ideology.)

Ah, no.

 

From the wiki: "The Fifth Column has the nefarious distinction of actually triggering the United States' involvement in the war against Nazi Germany. Hitler first sent the covert super team to Paragon City in 1939, tasked with spying on and sabotaging US shipping and naval development."

 

They were a Nazi super group sent to the US by Hitler. They weren't Italian fascists, they were Nazi Super Soldiers.

[arcane]

2 hours ago, A Cat said:

There are a lot of empires that predates fascism, or even the concept of nationalism or nations. 

Yes, but that doesn’t mean those empires didn’t have to engage in practices that we can retroactively call fascistic. Suppression of opposition, for instance, is both fascistic and predates the term. 

[arcane]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Fascism is a specific political ideology. It doesn't just mean "anyone that I dislike" or "anyone that voted for Orange Man." 

 

I’m well aware of that, no need to talk down to me.

 

I guess, at the end of the day, a person may not be fascist by the book, but, if they support fascist playbook favorites like censorship, they’re, if not fascist, certainly no better than fascist.

[A Cat]

9 minutes ago, arcane said:

Yes, but that doesn’t mean those empires didn’t have to engage in practices that we can retroactively call fascistic. Suppression of opposition, for instance, is both fascistic and predates the term. 

I guess, but suppression of opposition is as old a humanity itself. Fascism certainly did not start it. I see fascism as a post enlightenment answer for people who, being in the modern era of nation-states, were really into their countries, but unlike the pre enlightenment, did not identify their allegiance to a line of monarchs. Their figurehead is instead a romanticization of their people and culture in general, and an "everyman" leader in specific (Fuhrer's and Duces), as opposed to a ruler by the will of God that the European monarchies were. Though interestingly, Italy had a monarch the entire time they had their fascist government as well. At least this is my hot take, lol.

[battlewraith]

Fascism I think is best understood as a kind of hyper-nationalism centered around a mythological, idealized,  and/or nostalgic view of a certain group. Typically an ethnic group although I think that in certain cases a religious grouping would work as well (eg. the religious right in the USA exhibits fascist tendencies). The outward traits--antidemocratic sentiment, forceful suppression of the opposition, etc.) extend out from that ideological center. 

 

It kind of breaks down when you start talking about aliens. If the council are footsoldiers for the Nictus, then I wouldn't label them fascists.

[arcane]

Ok well I guess my original question has to be altered from “How can you try to rule the world without being fascist” to “How can you try to rule the world without being like fascists”. The former question has been thoroughly discredited, but I still say you can’t rule and subjugate others and whatnot without at least having some major commonalities with fascism.

 

All that said, this thread is getting a bit much fast. Maybe we better not, lol

Edited October 20, 2021 by arcane

[PeregrineFalcon]

9 minutes ago, arcane said:

I’m well aware of that, no need to talk down to me.

 

I guess, at the end of the day, a person may not be fascist by the book, but, if they support fascist playbook favorites like censorship, they’re, if not fascist, certainly no better than fascist.

No. That's not what that means. What you're talking about isn't fascism it's authoritarianism. Fascism is a subset of authoritarianism.

 

Soldiers working for the King who oppress peasants are not fascists, they are monarchists. Chinese police oppressing their masses aren't fascists either, but they are authoritarian. You don't get to just rename anything as fascism just because you want to.

 

You seem to be upset that I'm "talking down to you" but then you respond with a post that shows that you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. I wasn't trying to talk down to you, I was trying to answer your question. If my honest and truthful answer upset you then that's on you.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Ok well I guess my original question has to be altered from “How can you try to rule the world without being fascist” to “How can you try to rule the world without being like fascists”. The former question has been thoroughly discredited, but I still say you can’t rule and subjugate others and whatnot without at least having some major commonalities with fascism.

 

But are we talking real world or superhero comic fantasy? If it's the latter, you're only limited by your imagination. You could take over the world by offering a better world. You could subjugate people through some way that doesn't involve violent force. A super sexy race of aliens come to Earth. They are so damn sexy that people just do what they want. etc. Not saying any of these possibilities necessarily make for good storytelling btw.

[A Cat]

17 minutes ago, arcane said:

Ok well I guess my original question has to be altered from “How can you try to rule the world without being fascist” to “How can you try to rule the world without being like fascists”. The former question has been thoroughly discredited, but I still say you can’t rule and subjugate others and whatnot without at least having some major commonalities with fascism.

 

All that said, this thread is getting a bit much fast. Maybe we better not, lol

Sure, but because fascism is pretty generic as far as totalitarianism or authoritarianism goes. There's only so many ways to try and dominate others by force and humanity has been figuring them out for thousands of years. Of all the crimes of the Nazis and what have you, probably only the technology related ones weren't first committed by a random but brutal mesopotamian civilization in the dawn of civilization. But you know if the Babylonians had radios they'd be censoring them and playing Nebuchadnezzar propaganda 24/7. Or whatever it is under their timekeeping system. It was lunisolar so it has got to be pretty different. 

[arcane]

13 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

No. That's not what that means. What you're talking about isn't fascism it's authoritarianism. Fascism is a subset of authoritarianism.

 

Soldiers working for the King who oppress peasants are not fascists, they are monarchists. Chinese police oppressing their masses aren't fascists either, but they are authoritarian. You don't get to just rename anything as fascism just because you want to.

 

You seem to be upset that I'm "talking down to you" but then you respond with a post that shows that you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. I wasn't trying to talk down to you, I was trying to answer your question. If my honest and truthful answer upset you then that's on you.

I’ve represented myself badly in this thread, and you are correct about the facts.

 

I think the underlying reason I haven’t dealt with the distinctions in a measured and rational way in the last few posts is because I feel no practical need for the distinctions. While I’m well aware that fascism is a specific ideology, I could care less about distinguishing it from authoritarianism because I already see authoritarianism as pure evil.

 

K now I’m out.

[Glacier Peak]

I guess I never stopped and thought about it. Now that I have, I don't care one way or the other. This is a fictional game based on bits and pieces of real world history to provide just enough level of realism. At the end of the day, in this fictional world, I am a superpowered being that completes missions to gain influence and infamy (or in another dimension, information).

[A Cat]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

I guess I never stopped and thought about it. Now that I have, I don't care one way or the other. This is a fictional game based on bits and pieces of real world history to provide just enough level of realism. At the end of the day, in this fictional world, I am a superpowered being that completes missions to gain influence and infamy (or in another dimension, information).

Honestly, their backstories are not very interesting to me. There's just too many other factions out there that are way more interesting. I know they did so for German regulatory reasons, but they ended up pretty generic looking. I kinda wish they explored more of a supernatural angle instead of purely science/ayylmao thing. Werewolves just being failed nictuses is kinda dumb imo. 

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, A Cat said:

Honestly, their backstories are not very interesting to me. There's just too many other factions out there that are way more interesting. I know they did so for German regulatory reasons, but they ended up pretty generic looking. I kinda wish they explored more of a supernatural angle instead of purely science/ayylmao thing. Werewolves just being failed nictuses is kinda dumb imo. 

Yeah, I hear ya. I love seeing the almost defeated Council enemy break out in to a giant werewolf. That's a story I'm interested in! Just like seeing Void Hunters in missions! 

[EmperorSteele]

Iirc, the old lore bible described the Council as simply a leftist version of the 5th Column. Though there's not much in-game to support that. It simply seemed to be a way for the devs to not have "literal nazi's" in their game.