I want to perma-hold AVs. How?

[BurningDezire]

Title says it all. Suggest me a build where I can lockdown AVs FAST and LONG. While being able to survive of course. Ty!

[UltraAlt]

Get 7 other controllers on your team with 3 ACCs,1 or 2 recharge, and 1 or 2 hold duration  in one or more hold powers with Lockdown +2 Mag Procs in each Hold, Leadership Tactics with 3 To-Hit's, some other sets with ACC bonuses, some global recharge from sets, Hasten (wouldn't hurt), good timing from everyone, good hit rolls, and good luck in general.

 

Powers that defense debuff to make it easier to hit them is always a bonus.

Same goes powers for debuffing the AV's to-hit.

 

If you can get a stormy to pin them to a ceiling with hurricane, that does pretty good to help keep them debuffed from hitting you and can keep them getting knocked down over and over again even if they are pinned to the ceiling.

[Carnifax]

5 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

Same goes powers for debuffing the AV's to-hit.

Other than Trick Arrows Flash Arrow, which has unresistable -ToHit most AVs will resist 85% of the debuff.

 

And then if they aren't even level they'll resist even more.

 

-ToHit is not a great tool Vs AVs.

 

Your best best for holding an av would probably be a Grav/TA with the holds maxxed out. Even then, with Singy also helping I'm not sure if you could build up and sustain the 54 mag protection they have.

[Maelwys]

The Short Answer is: ReRoll as a Dominator and grab Power Boost.

The Longer Answer is: You need to stack mez abilities (aside immobilize) to an EXTREMELY high Mag to hold AVs through Purple Triangles , and Higher-level Debuff Resistances mean that your mez effects will wear off faster... so you'll need to buff your duration as much as possible.

You'll want to be able to inflict a smidge over Mag 57, permanently which is difficult/nigh impossible to attain on a Controller against higher-level mobs, even with Power Boost.
Dominators get additional mez mag/duration via "Domination"; so it's much easier for them to keep that up. Although even they will struggle vs +4s.

Some control powersets have Single-Target "Confuse" powers that possess a far longer base duration than Hold powers - these are much easier to use to keep AVs mezzed (especially with Power Boost) but it takes ages to set it up, and you won't gain Containment.

There's a reason most Controllers are stuck using Immobilises vs AVs.
Or Phantom Army/Mr. Poo to just tank the AV rather than mez it! 😸

Edited October 22, 2021 by Maelwys

[Without_Pause]

This isn't Staples. There is no Easy button.

[MoonSheep]

perma confuse them as a mind dom instead 

[BurningDezire]

34 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

perma confuse them as a mind dom instead 

Interesting. Is this "easily" done? Unlike trying to hold them.

Edited October 22, 2021 by BurningDezire

[Carnifax]

3 minutes ago, BurningDezire said:

Interesting. Is this easily done? Unlike trying to hold them.

It's easier done from the point of view that most (all?) single target confuses doesn't aggro them. So you can stand a bit away spamming it til it takes without them ripping off your face. And as noted Confuse durations are longer than Hold ones. 

[BurningDezire]

Just now, Carnifax said:

It's easier done from the point of view that most (all?) single target confuses doesn't aggro them. So you can stand a bit away spamming it til it takes without them ripping off your face. And as noted Confuse durations are longer than Hold ones. 

Okay. Never played a Dom. I'm intrigued enough to consider rolling one. Ty.

[Carnifax]

Just now, BurningDezire said:

Okay. Never played a Dom. I'm intrigued enough to consider rolling one. Ty.

Any confuse power can do it, if you can muster the accrued Mag. 

 

Although perma-dom Dominators have twice the Mag as Controllers (6 rather than 3) they do have shorter durations (80% I think), but several come with Power Boost which extends the duration

[The_Warpact]

I've only ever seen a mind dom successfully lockdown a AV before, I've seen a electric troller put them to sleep. BUT, this was stacking the mezz.

[Tacheyon]

Roll a Earth/TA/Earth

 

Put Lockdown Chance to Hold in Fossilize, Volcanic Gases, Ice Arrow and Seismic Smash.  

 

Or an Earth/Poison/Earth

Same thing for the Earth powers, but also use in Paralytic Poison and Poison Trap.

 

Volcanic Gases is a AOE hold that isn't a one and done.  It's a pseudo pet that will pulse a hold every couple of seconds so you can use it to layer extra mags on a target.

 

But once an AV had those purple triangles up...no amount of stacking will keep it held.

[MoonSheep]

18 minutes ago, BurningDezire said:

Interesting. Is this "easily" done? Unlike trying to hold them.

 

yeah it’s pretty easy - confuse lasts a lot longer than holds so it’s easy to stack, as people have also mentioned it doesn’t aggro the AV either

 

on my mind/fire dom i let the confuse stack for a minute before engaging in battle, 1 attack, 1 confuse, 1 attack etc. keeps the AV confused even with purple triangles of doom - very safe

 

you can also confuse the crystal titan at the end of the eden trial and therefore not need any ambrosia for the team

Edited October 22, 2021 by MoonSheep

[Voltak]

1 hour ago, Carnifax said:

Other than Trick Arrows Flash Arrow, which has unresistable -ToHit most AVs will resist 85% of the debuff.

 

And then if they aren't even level they'll resist even more.

 

-ToHit is not a great tool Vs AVs.

 

Your best best for holding an av would probably be a Grav/TA with the holds maxxed out. Even then, with Singy also helping I'm not sure if you could build up and sustain the 54 mag protection they have.

As someone who loves to solo AVs and has done it many times with a range of toons, I want to second most of what Carnifax stated very well.  

First, an appreciation for Carnifax's input. 

Ok, to appreciate how difficult it is to permanently hold an AV, players need to know that even for a perma Domination dominator, that task is nigh impossible to do solo, the only proven so far in actual game testing to permanently hold an AV, especially a lvl +4 , is a Mind dominator, and that is because Mind's single hold is extremely fast , but not only because of this, but also because in order to get the AV SAFELY to a state where you can begin to SAFELY stack the holds, mind dominators have other tools such as confuse and sleep, mostly confuse.    

Furthermore, only on paper is it possible to break the AV's hold protection by stacking a total of 54 Mags or even 57.   In practice, you are not going to see that.  Why?  Because of the speeds at which an AV is shedding off those mags.   Again, testing has confirmed that reaching magnitude 60 and higher will help to permanently hold the AV because of how fast the dips in mags happen. 

There is a big drawback to this --- the mind dom, if he wishes to keep the AV held, that is all he can do , keep casting the hold as quickly as it charges up.  
That in turns hinders your ability to do anything else, so you won't kill it alone. 
We conducted tests, and I have tested extensively 

The moment a mind dominator tries to cast an attack chain vs a lvl 54 AV, the more likely that AV will begin to SHED OFF those magnitudes that you worked so hard to stack up.   In fact, I can wage any influence that once you start to try to deliver an attack chain to kill it, the AV will break free since you will lose that MAG before you get it back up to the requirement if you persist on attacking.  Why I say this?  Because I seen it over and over in tests.   The higher the lvl of the AV in relation to you, the faster the AV sheds off those mags.   The painful truth is that while you stack the mags in quantities of +3, an AV +4 will shed them off in quantities of +6 or +9 while you embark on delivering your attack chain to kill it.   You see where I am going with this ?   You are going to lose the race.   
An even number AV you can permanently hold much more easy, but again, your attack chain must have the hold there quickly , and by that time you are losing DPS.  If you are a controller, the race is lost before you even begin. 


My Dark Dominator relies on to hit debuffs because I know I cannot permanently hold the AV, not if I also want to unleash an attack chain to overcome the regen and be able to kill it. 
This is the only point where I will not support what Carnifax said.  To hit debuffs are indeed a useful tool when soloing AVs.  My dark/dark dominator relies on that as well as high def range and other tools to kill them before they kill me.  Yes, they do get resisted but they are not immune and those to hit debuffs stack and stack.  

And with power boost (gather shadows, in case of Doms) they get amplified, and with Clarion radial, they get amplified even more. 

But.. alas, this is Dominator land, NOT controller

A controller cannot do this.  A controller does not have the power to stack magnitudes in the way a Dominator can and only one Dominator can do this in practice since you need to SAFELY be able to stack those holds, and no dominator outside of mind and dark has a confuse that recharges very fast.    Plant's confuse takes too long to recharge to be able to first confuse the AV for a long time and then work on stacking the holds. 

Dark and Mind are the only ones who can proceed with safety in case of Dominators, and controllers... well, controllers need their secondaries to seek safety while they stack the holds but we go back to what I said earlier --> controllers do not have the power to achieve that like dominators can. 

If anyone tells you on the forums that they , as a controller , can permanently hold an AV, ask for the video or ask them to take you with them so you can watch.    Otherwise, don't believe it.  
On a similar note, anyone who tells you that they permanently held an AV+4  AND they were able to launch an attack to kill it ,  even if they are dominator, ask them for the video or ask them to let you witness or it did not happen at all 

That's my advice. 

Here's one example of an AV lvl 54 vs a solo Dominator. 
Not just any AV, this is a Carnies AV, who has pay defenses so even Mind doms are in hot water here. 

I killed the AV while the Lores were on cool down so it's not the lore who actually got the kill.   
 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Voltak

[Carnifax]

25 minutes ago, Voltak said:

Yes, they do get resisted but they are not immune and those to hit debuffs stack and stack.

Glooms debuff (as an example) is 15% of 5.625% -ToHit for 10 seconds.

 

So -0.84375 tohit for 10 seconds. So assuming you have a decent chain of 3-4 different attacks per 10 seconds you're looking at between 2.5% and 3.2% -ToHit debuff in total from your Assault set. Now something like Fearsome Stare will add to that (after resists 2.25% for 20 seconds) but it's still somewhere around 5%ish. 

 

Now if you're at 40% defense then 5% -ToHit is still really useful (essentially halving the amount you'd be hit) so the usefulness of the debuff really depends a bit. 

 

The raw number is unlikely to be more than 5-6-7% after resists, but that 5-6-7% could be very useful the closer it gets you to the Def Cap. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Carnifax

[Voltak]

49 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

Glooms debuff (as an example) is 15% of 5.625% -ToHit for 10 seconds.

 

So -0.84375 tohit for 10 seconds. So assuming you have a decent chain of 3-4 different attacks per 10 seconds you're looking at between 2.5% and 3.2% -ToHit debuff in total from your Assault set. Now something like Fearsome Stare will add to that (after resists 2.25% for 20 seconds) but it's still somewhere around 5%ish. 

 

Now if you're at 40% defense then 5% -ToHit is still really useful (essentially halving the amount you'd be hit) so the usefulness of the debuff really depends a bit. 

 

The raw number is unlikely to be more than 5-6-7% after resists, but that 5-6-7% could be very useful the closer it gets you to the Def Cap. 

Practicing to do this over and over has taken me into a journey of learning

1. To hit debuffs are all stacking
2. Dark's control instruments to debuff are stronger than dark assault. So for example,
Shadow Field - 22. 5 %. to hit debuff for 45 seconds 
3. Fearsome stare is 11.25 % for 50 seconds 
4. Dark's pet stacks the to hit debuffs as well, the immobile from Wolf is 7.53% , the Haunts are 7.53% 
5.. Everything above stacks. 

Then you forgot the other fact I mentioned -  with Dark's assault version of Power Boost (known as Gather Shadows). 
Gather Shadow for me has a down time of 14 seconds, it is 10 seconds long in duration but every power I activate during gather shadows gets the boost for the entirety of the duration , so the debuffs are stronger for the full length of duration if I activate them when gather shadows is up.   And I do this every time.  

The numbers are greatly enhanced 
Shadow Field becomes 39.25% to hit debuff
Fearsome Stare become 19.63% 

When you add Clarion Radial  (like I used in Solo ITF 54x8 no insps). 

that all changes 

Shadow Field becomes 

57.26% to hit debuff 

Fearsome stare becomes 
28.63%  to hit debuff

Now add only those two together, just those two above, and you have , before resists, about 86% to hit debuff.   Without adding the other to hit debuffs from any other power.  

Bottom line --  what I stated stands -- The to hit debuffs are a great set of instruments to solo AVs with. 

Like I said in another thread about Dominators --

When it comes to soloing AVs, Dark/Dark dominator outshines all other Dominators 
 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Voltak

[Voltak]

Edited the post above ***

[Carnifax]

15 minutes ago, Voltak said:

Practicing to do this over and over has taken me into a journey of learning

1. To hit debuffs are all stacking
2. Dark's control instruments to debuff are stronger than dark assault. So for example,
Shadow Field - 22. 5 %. to hit debuff for 45 seconds 
3. Fearsome stare is 11.25 % for 50 seconds 
4. Dark's pet stacks the to hit debuffs as well, the immobile from Wolf is 7.53% , the Haunts are 7.53% 
5.. Everything above stacks. 

Then you forgot the other fact I mentioned -  with Dark's assault version of Power Boost (known as Gather Shadows). 
Gather Shadow for me has a down time of 14 seconds, it is 10 seconds long in duration but every power I activate during gather shadows gets the boost for the entirety of the duration , so the debuffs are stronger for the full length of duration if I activate them when gather shadows is up.   And I do this every time.  

The numbers are greatly enhanced 
Shadow Field becomes 39.25% to hit debuff
Fearsome Stare become 19.63% 

When you add Clarion Radial  (like I used in Solo ITF 54x8 no insps). 

that all changes 

Shadow Field becomes 

57.26%

Fearsome stare becomes 
28.63% 

Bottom line --  what I stated stands -- The to hit debuffs are a great set of instruments. 
 

 

Where are you getting those figures from? CoD lists Fearsome as a 20 second duration, not 50 (remember PB will boost only the % of the -ToHit, not its duration) and Shadow Field as  15% debuff, not 22.5% (there are seperate Domi and Controller versions). 

 

So Gathered Shadow Field + Fearsome (assuming both slotted up for ToHit too, not sure Shadow Field would be) : 

( 15 * (1 + 0.75 + 0.6) ) = 33.75

( 11.25 * (1 + 0.75 + 0.6) ) = 26.4375

 

So 60.1875% between the two of them. Multiple by 0.15 = 9.02, plus the 2.25% from Assault gives around 11.27% (I'm assuming this AV is +0, for +4 multiple that by 0.65)

 

Now I'm not saying 11.27 is terrible, if you're sitting at 32% def it'll be a pretty big jump in your defenses all the same but let's be realistic about the numbers. 

 

Also bear in mind Shadow Field won't be perma cos Devs Hate AoE Holds (30 second nukes are fine but heavens forbid someone having an AOE Hold which doesn't take mins to recharge 🙂 )

Edited October 22, 2021 by Carnifax

[Voltak]

6 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

 

Where are you getting those figures from? CoD lists Fearsome as a 20 second duration, not 50 (remember PB will boost only the % of the -ToHit, not its duration) and Shadow Field as  15% debuff, not 22.5% (there are seperate Domi and Controller versions). 

 

So Gathered Shadow Field + Fearsome (assuming both slotted up for ToHit too, not sure Shadow Field would be) : 

( 15 * (1 + 0.75 + 0.6) ) = 33.75

( 11.25 * (1 + 0.75 + 0.6) ) = 26.4375

 

So 60.1875% between the two of them. Multiple by 0.15 = 9.02, plus the 2.25% from Assault gives around 11.27% (I'm assuming this AV is +0, for +4 multiple that by 0.65)

 

Now I'm not saying 11.27 is terrible, if you're sitting at 32% def it'll be a pretty big jump in your defenses all the same but let's be realistic about the numbers. 

Those numbers are taken from Mids. 
DARK CONTROL FOR DOMINATORS -  NOT DARK AFFINITY NOT DARK MIASMA 

Also, please remember it is not PB exactly.  It is Gather Shadows.  
I provided numbers without activating Gather Shadows as well as after activating GS. 

So the numbers with Gather shadows, NOT PB ( I say that GS is the Dominator version of PB).  
I hope this clarifies.  

The numbers are greatly enhanced 
Shadow Field becomes 39.25% to hit debuff for 45 seconds 
Fearsome Stare become 19.63%  for 50 secs 

Again 

When you add Clarion Radial  (like I used in Solo ITF 54x8 no insps). 

that all changes 

Shadow Field becomes 

57.26% to hit debuff 

Fearsome stare becomes 
28.63%  to hit debuff

Now add only those two together, just those two above, and you have , before resists, about 86% to hit debuff.   Without adding the other to hit debuffs from any other power.  

Edited October 22, 2021 by Voltak

[Voltak]

EDITED ** 

Of course I am being realistic.  Realistic is all I have become after doing this over and over. 

 

Shadow field 

57.26%. to hit debuff 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Voltak

[Carnifax]

CoD pulls the numbers directly from the game files. Mids can be wildly inaccurate (Corruptor damage used to be wildly understated for example)

 

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=dominator_assault.dark_assault.gather_shadows&at=dominator

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=dominator_control.darkness_control.fearsome_stare&at=dominator

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=dominator_control.darkness_control.shadow_field&at=dominator

 

Here's one interesting bit though : Domination adds ANOTHER Shadow Field into the mix with its own 15% debuff, which is nice. 

 

[Carnifax]

4 minutes ago, Voltak said:

Also, please remember it is not PB exactly.  It is Gather Shadows.  

Yup, I know. I pulled the 0.75% directly from the CoD entry from it. 

 

 

[Voltak]

Just now, Carnifax said:

Yup, I know. I pulled the 0.75% directly from the CoD entry from it. 

 

 

With gather shadows and with Clarion radial 

 

[Voltak]

The bottom line is after adding everything, after all that stuff stacking on the AV...  It is certainly a great set of instruments to use , and no one is soloing AVs, in the case of AVs at lvl 50+, with difficulty settings of +4, unless they are IO'd and with defenses at soft cap, or without having To Hit debuffs.  
I am cap, so all those to hit debuffs are great additions. 

We should not take anything away from them. They are great vs those AVs . 

I say from experience 🙂 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Voltak

[Carnifax]

8 minutes ago, Voltak said:

With gather shadows and with Clarion radial 

 

Like I said, don't believe Mids. It's not good at edge cases. It has previous 🙂

 

By my reckoning Domination + Gathered fully-slotted-for-ToHit Shadow Field should be up around a 67.5% debuff. Shadow Field may be the only Domi power where Domination doubles the debuffs it does as well as the control (because no other Control set does the "Summon a 2nd instance of the pseudopet when I'm in Domination Mode" as far as I know of). 

 

Edit : I wonder how far I'd get petitioning the devs to apply this to all "patch" controls. Double dip Carrion Creepers sounds fun 🙂

 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Carnifax