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Focused Feedback: Stone Armor - Revamp and Proliferation


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2 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Granite is not a waste of a T9. Your feedback is clearly just your opinion and not based on play testing.

 

The transfer of resists and defs to Stone Skin from Granite literally makes no difference to Tankers because it's an auto pick, and it is an easy decision for Brutes and now Scrappers to take over Rock Armor. The ability to toggle a power indefinitely that prevents a player from dying except in extreme circumstances absolutely needs downsides to balance out its usage. The fact that there are IOs and set bonuses in this game means a player can definitely slot Granite Armor however they prefer. Whether as a set mule that can slot resist and def IOs or as a power that can literally survive 99% of content in this game without dying.

You are better off not taking granite, using those slots in other powers(2 more for stone skin ) and using IOs to get you to cap. now you get better protection with none of the disadvantages. and you have an additional power pick to use. and you dont have to worry about excessive recharge to make up for granite.

Edited by ivanhedgehog
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37 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

You are better off not taking granite, using those slots in other powers(2 more for stone skin ) and using IOs to get you to cap. now you get better protection with none of the disadvantages. and you have an additional power pick to use. and you dont have to worry about excessive recharge to make up for granite.

Better off if you’re focused on damage, sure. As a player who’s had a Graniteless tanker for a long time, you’re still going to be nowhere close on survivability. Ofc Granite survivability is overkill for general play, but that’s irrelevant. Granite is still the only god mode that is a toggle, and therefore still has to have its own brand of downsides like every other god mode power does. And since it’s the only melee AT god mode without uptime as a downside, we have the current downsides instead. 
 

Remember Granite gets you a long way towards caps on defense AND resistance. Capped defenses OR resistances aren’t in the same ballpark as both. 
 

On live my Graniteless is cool in general play but gets slaughtered by big boys like Lord Recluse with such low resistances to energies and psi. While the Stone Skin buff is very exciting, extremely doubtful it’s going to suddenly make my Graniteless feel like he’s running Granite.

Edited by arcane
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21 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

how much of that good is being transferred to stone skin, making granite not worth taking. making you use some of those slots on other powers to keep the same levels. I havent built one, but what will be the cost in slots, will granite be not worth taking? Lots of people are looking at scrappers with stone, how will it effect the people using stone tanks?

 

edit: 3 def / 3 res will not cap anything on granite except for smashing/lethal on live it puts you at 31% def on half of the categories. the other half are zero

I built one on test and it will be worth it to not slot granite other than as mule slots and use IOs to toughen up your non granite build. waste of a t9.

 

Enough is being moved from granite to stone skin to make non granite builds viable. I consider that to be good game design. 

 

Note: beta tanker numbers. 

Granite gives 50% resistance to l/s 40% to everything else but psi. Add in stone skin with 10 % to all but psi and that puts you in a really good place to cap resistance with minimal trouble from IOs. For defense granite is 15% def to all but skin, and the new stone skin gets that to 20% before enhancement. Heck with just SOs you're talking around 80% resistance and 32% def to most things. That's really damned solid. Minimal IO and incarnate (alpha) work and you cap all resistances but psi and softcap defense. You basically have to face psi, or tons of debuff to actually die (especially with rooted up for the regen). 

 

If you think granite is a waste of a T9, you've not played it. The penalties are a bit annoying, but with combat teleport in the game they really are easily mitigated. 

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19 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

 

Enough is being moved from granite to stone skin to make non granite builds viable. I consider that to be good game design. 

 

Note: beta tanker numbers. 

Granite gives 50% resistance to l/s 40% to everything else but psi. Add in stone skin with 10 % to all but psi and that puts you in a really good place to cap resistance with minimal trouble from IOs. For defense granite is 15% def to all but skin, and the new stone skin gets that to 20% before enhancement. Heck with just SOs you're talking around 80% resistance and 32% def to most things. That's really damned solid. Minimal IO and incarnate (alpha) work and you cap all resistances but psi and softcap defense. You basically have to face psi, or tons of debuff to actually die (especially with rooted up for the regen). 

 

If you think granite is a waste of a T9, you've not played it. The penalties are a bit annoying, but with combat teleport in the game they really are easily mitigated. 

I can not take granite and have a good build that actually kills stuff. Or I can slot up granite and die of boredom before I kill things. thats the choice. Ive mained a stoner for many years. good with a team to help with the dps, but not so fun otherwise. the combat tp is the least of it. the -damage and - recharge hurt a lot more. I didnt say get rid of the penalties, lower them some would help.

Edited by ivanhedgehog
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53 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

I can not take granite and have a good build that actually kills stuff. Or I can slot up granite and die of boredom before I kill things. thats the choice. Ive mained a stoner for many years. good with a team to help with the dps, but not so fun otherwise. the combat tp is the least of it. the -damage and - recharge hurt a lot more. I didnt say get rid of the penalties, lower them some would help.

 

You are supposed to be able to stay in Granite as long as necessary, but you're not supposed to live in it all the time. That's part of the point of these changes, to make the Rest of the set attractive enough that Granite is something you hit only if you're having big trouble keeping upright.

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I have soloed an ITF on a granite brute. I wouldn't even consider it on a granite tank. You are correct that granite carriers serious penalties, but if you're a tank, they don't interfere with your meatshield job. On a brute, the lower damage scalar means it is less consequential, and you can compensate for the recharge without much trouble since you have a lot of mule slots for LotG and potential to chase recharge IO sets since your defenses are quite stout. 

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Feedback TLDR; It feels like needed QoL and buffs to non granite and nerfing Granite; making players choose more heavily between playing it with or without investment into granite.
 

     This may seem like minor numbers things, but the proposed changes are effectively loosing a defense toggle (~3%)  and a resist all toggle (~6%) OR pay a slotting tax that i feel it could avoid; as you will have to slot more to get the same effect you are basically making stone armor take an extra power/spend slots for the same survivability as before if going/using granite. The difference between running granite and not running granite becomes even more extreme as you not only drop huge self nerf (-30% dmg, -65% recharge, self slow;though you can slot for speed and "avoid" the slow) you would now also gain extra offensive capability in the fire dmg rider effect to your attacks, 20% recovery, +15% recharge (net difference then being -80% effectively for granite!?), bonus perception, psi coverage etc. The extra functionality does feel needed, however, and gives a greater capability to be granitless - for stalkers and scrappers a given as they lack the power and maybe dps brutes but tankers will loose out on this as it is when they need to go into actual tanking when making their builds for power/enhancement slots.

     The slotting required to counter the move of def/resist to a passive takes the slotting of basically another whole power, and also requires you to take the power in the first place (as it could often otherwise be skipped or was simply muled for psi resist/minor things).  Taking and slotting an extra power (at minimum 2 slots for defense and 2 for resists) beyond its prior mule status at best is a hefty tax for access to stats you would have already gotten prior, for the tanker above level 26 you would often only get some reduced endurance cost from this rework AND have to toss another power's worth of slotting to fill out stone skin properly. IF that's to be the tax for granite, perhaps some of the other downsides could be considered.

  Some may view this as not mattering all that much, as a near self capping tank has less use for buffs and high level play is rife with them, but with coming challenge modes and other things, or just for when you run teams that aren't buff heavy, it can matter and i'd like to think of the set design towards those also scenarios. 
 

If one proliferates buffs to stone skin into the other armors instead it would be a better service to the set than merely moving them from granite to stone skin; include other features to stone skin instead if making the power more useful/dynamic - such as putting the brimstone fire effect into the passive armor or making granite a toggle that adds in addition to the other toggles instead of replaces. If you put the brimstone rider effect on stone armor it would give granite some minor buff as well as the general play useage while keeping stone skin as a valuable power everybody would want to take.
 

 Point being just moving some def/resist from granite to stoneskin is a net nerf to total investment required for survivability for tankers (with huge -recharge they already felt like they had less buttons than other tanks, making them effectively loose slots takes away more) please be careful you don't tax an already taxing set/ability (granite), its already feeling rough to play and now its getting even worse comparatively, give it some love too! Just a nerf of -3% defense/-6% resists (net effective with similar investment) feels minor but harsh in conjunction to the other buffs its now also missing out on (and if you're now running granite-less you need to more heavily slot the other powers), potentially such as decreasing the detriment to using it if the difference is already going to be increased otherwise.

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2 hours ago, Zaughlin said:

 Point being just moving some def/resist from granite to stoneskin is a net nerf

In fairness, some of the resistance and defense needed to be shaved off granite to get it light enough to jump curbs.

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16 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

I can not take granite and have a good build that actually kills stuff. Or I can slot up granite and die of boredom before I kill things. thats the choice. Ive mained a stoner for many years. good with a team to help with the dps, but not so fun otherwise. the combat tp is the least of it. the -damage and - recharge hurt a lot more. I didnt say get rid of the penalties, lower them some would help.

Granite is a defensive god mode with offensive drawbacks to balance it, so your concerns about it mitigating your offense.. well it’s working as intended. I notice you didn’t comment on your mitigation in either scenario, as if that was somehow not relevant?

 

I for one am extremely excited about all these buffs to the set....

 

As for Granite-only tankers somehow taking a very slight nerf in that they might want to toss a slot or two into Stone Skin... you already have the most wide-open tanker primary in the game if looking at Stone Armor as only needing Earth’s Embrace/Mud Pots/Rooted/Granite Armor, and you have to pick a T1 or T2 anyway, so not seeing how this makes that build style remotely tough to slot. Hopefully though, you consider looking at some of the other powers since the devs are making a damn good effort to make them all more attractive.

Edited by arcane
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Geode seems like an odd fit for Stalkers, because they can already get Hibernate as a Patron Power in Leviathan Mastery.

 

Not even Ice Armor gets Hibernate for Stalkers, and I assume that's because they didn't want players doubling up on it. So my concern is that having access to both Geode and Hibernate on a Stalker could present some issues.

 

Nothing big, I'm sure, but still... worth making note of.

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53 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

Geode seems like an odd fit for Stalkers, because they can already get Hibernate as a Patron Power in Leviathan Mastery.

 

Not even Ice Armor gets Hibernate for Stalkers, and I assume that's because they didn't want players doubling up on it. So my concern is that having access to both Geode and Hibernate on a Stalker could present some issues.

 

Nothing big, I'm sure, but still... worth making note of.

 

Scrappers also get epic Hibernate.

 

Geode has a 3m cooldown and Hibernate has a 4m cooldown.  Each has a 30s max time-out time.  You can't get to the point where you can perma them by alternating, and giving yourself a perma time-out seems not like it's that big a deal anyway?  I guess you could maybe be obnoxious in PvP by waiting out some substantial chunk of an arena match?  But especially in PvP, with DR on recharge, you aren't going to be anything close to perma.  It doesn't feel like a big deal to me?

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