SS/Inv-how bad is the Rage Crash?

[ZemX]

12 hours ago, Verfall said:

From what I remember SS is designed to underperform without Rage active.

 

Doesn't look that way to me.  Important to remember the original design never accounted for animation times.  If you use the powerset comparator in Mid's like @Erratic1 did, but instead choose Damage/Sec and tick "Attempt Matching" the result is a lot closer for the two sets.  The attacks are mostly in line with their recharge times, which is all the original design cared about.

 

Which means if you want to talk balance, you kind of have to compare Rage to Build Up.  No way anybody is getting even 1-stack Rage as a toggle with no crash because that's Build Up... except always on.

[MaxxisPrime]

What about make it a toggle and giving it the same benefits, but with higher endurance consumption during its use. Consumption could be based off of toggle itself draining endurance or while the toggle is active, each attack uses more endurance? Would make you more mindful of when and how you use it. Working harder should make you tired, right? 

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

 

Doesn't look that way to me.  Important to remember the original design never accounted for animation times.  If you use the powerset comparator in Mid's like @Erratic1 did, but instead choose Damage/Sec and tick "Attempt Matching" the result is a lot closer for the two sets.  The attacks are mostly in line with their recharge times, which is all the original design cared about.

 

Which means if you want to talk balance, you kind of have to compare Rage to Build Up.  No way anybody is getting even 1-stack Rage as a toggle with no crash because that's Build Up... except always on.

Are you at all factoring in that SS is Smash damage in a game where smash is decidedly not king?  Or are you just doing a straight number to number comparison Smash = Energy = Psi = Dark all the same?

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

Are you at all factoring in that SS is Smash damage in a game where smash is decidedly not king?  Or are you just doing a straight number to number comparison Smash = Energy = Psi = Dark all the same?

 

Straight numbers, Snarkster.  Just like the original devs did.  I am addressing the idea that SS's attacks were somehow designed to underperform in order to compensate for Rage.  I don't think they were.   Neither was it balanced around damage type, since you brought it up because NO powersets were balanced around damage type.  

 

They gave us this wonderful game but, if we're being honest, they weren't initially very good at the whole balance thing.  The whole reason there are differences in how resisted one damage type is vs. another is because they were assigned according to theme rather than according to some equitable distribution of damage resistance among NPCs.  Oh, it's another robot with metal skin?  Lethal resistant, check.  Oh it's a ghost that doesn't HAVE blood?  Lethal resistant!  Oh wow, tough nuts, blade fans!  Smashing may not be king, but it's not Lethal either.  Those poor bastards REALLY got screwed.

[Snarky]

56 minutes ago, ZemX said:

They gave us this wonderful game but, if we're being honest, they weren't initially very good at the whole balance thing. 

My understanding of the Dev Lore is that they were originally trying to create a "Holy Trinity" game (Tank/Healer/DPS) and on Redside they designed the MM as the Tank, in Bodyguard mode.  So.....  Yeah.  Great game.  But they had no F-ing idea what they were doing.

[nihilii]

And Bodyguard wasn't even a thing back then. MMs were just supposed to tank... somehow, with their fragile pets and no native aggro control.

 

Or wasn't the idea MMs would use their pets to soak the alpha, then Brutes would jump in to handle the survivors? Cool idea, in theory.

 

[Verfall]

16 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

 

The only Super Strength attack which is brought up to equality by adding 80% damage would be Jab moving up to match Stone Fist. Foot Stomp before Rage outclasses Tremor. For every other attack Super Strength has, adding 80% damage takes it considerably past the matching attack from Stone Melee. Moreover, Rage's damage bonus is not confined to Super Strength attacks, so damaging abilities from one's primary (in the case of Tankers, secondary for Brutes), power pool, and epic/patron sets are boosted--and those abilities were never behind on the Super Strength character because they'd taken Super Strength, is all pure gain.

 

But yeah, the To-Hit is really nice and really shines when you go from whiffing to reliably hitting. It pisses me off to no end when Knockout Blow misses.

 

 

I'm looking at that and all of stones powers except one outdo rageless SS. Why seismic and footstomp are on the same line is kinda dumb though. Hell, seismic alone, just look at that line. But truly, outside of foot stomp and maybe KB, SS is garbage. Unless you use a clickie that has a moronic crash attached.

 

You can't tell me there isn't some other way to make SS unique that doesn't involve archaic game design. Heck, with the changes to stone melee on beta it will pull even farther ahead. In hindsight, if I knew about the tanker changes and the stone melee changes over a year ago, my tank would have been Invul/stone. I got lured in by nostalgia and foot stomp...that sexy, sexy, foot stomp...

 

But that's just stone melee, the original "other smashing set". It's 2021, can we not make SS functional without the inherent flaw? Can we not find a compromise? Again, I point to practiced brawler/master brawler on sentinels as a good starting point.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Verfall

[Erratic1]

6 hours ago, Verfall said:

I'm looking at that and all of stones powers except one outdo rageless SS. Why seismic and footstomp are on the same line is kinda dumb though. Hell, seismic alone, just look at that line. But truly, outside of foot stomp and maybe KB, SS is garbage. Unless you use a clickie that has a moronic crash attached.

 

Yes, you're supposed to use Rage. Nobody said you were not supposed to do so. Seismic is single target, Foot Stomp is AoE...the do not compare to either other. That is why  in what you quoted I compared Foot Stomp, an area attack to Tremor, an area attack. That leaves Seismic Smash to be compared to Knockout Blow--both single target attacks. And no, SS is not garbage...SS not using Rage at all may arguably be so but again, YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO USE RAGE.

 

 

6 hours ago, Verfall said:

 

You can't tell me there isn't some other way to make SS unique that doesn't involve archaic game design. Heck, with the changes to stone melee on beta it will pull even farther ahead. In hindsight, if I knew about the tanker changes and the stone melee changes over a year ago, my tank would have been Invul/stone. I got lured in by nostalgia and foot stomp...that sexy, sexy, foot stomp...

 

I do not recall any attempt on my part to suggest archaic changes to SS. I am pretty sure my preceding posts I suggested back dooring the Fury mechanic from Brutes via Rage. What I did question was the notion that SS should have an all the time, permanently turned on +80% to damage. And at no point here have you said anything which suggests that would be somehow balanced with other damage sets.

 

 

[Snarky]

13 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

What I did question was the notion that SS should have an all the time, permanently turned on +80% to damage. And at no point here have you said anything which suggests that would be somehow balanced with other damage sets.

 

 

let me say it then,  Rage should be a toggle.  1 stack, permanent with toggle on.  Balanced vs other sets in that it is Smashing Damage,  Proof..... SS is not all that popular even though you can double stack Rage.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

let me say it then,  Rage should be a toggle.  1 stack, permanent with toggle on.  Balanced vs other sets in that it is Smashing Damage,  Proof..... SS is not all that popular even though you can double stack Rage.

 

 

Smashing Resistance does not mean you do not do any damage or even that much less damage on the whole. Apparently the highest smashing resistances values (excluding AVs, Elite Bosses, Giant Monsters) are 35-40% but only on, "Council werewolves, Circle of Thorns Ghosts, and non-stone Devouring Earth. (1)" Moreover, across encounters Smashing is not the most commonly encountered...or the second or third most encountered--those being Lethal, Toxic, and Psionic. So Battle Axe, Broad Sword, Claws, Dual Blades, Katana, Savage Melee, and Spines come up against their nemesis resistance more frequently.

 

Moreover Martial Arts, Staff, and Stone Melee, Street Justice, and War Mace are also Smashing Sets. Do they get to have an always on damage boost of some value to make up for where Super Strength would  be?

 

 

(1) http://www.reddit.com/r/Cityofheroes/comments/c9yaot/general_enemy_average_damage_resistance_numbers/

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Erratic1

[ZemX]

I definitely get wanting to have some boost to the underperforming sets.  I played the hell out of a Ninja Blade Stalker even before the Stalker updates in i22.  Just loved the way it played.  Hated how it felt like swinging a cardboard tube instead of a sword sometimes tho.

 

But an always-on 80% damage buff?  I'd love that too.  But that's way overkill for no downside.

[Verfall]

4 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Yes, you're supposed to use Rage. Nobody said you were not supposed to do so. Seismic is single target, Foot Stomp is AoE...the do not compare to either other. That is why  in what you quoted I compared Foot Stomp, an area attack to Tremor, an area attack. That leaves Seismic Smash to be compared to Knockout Blow--both single target attacks. And no, SS is not garbage...SS not using Rage at all may arguably be so but again, YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO USE RAGE.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And the underlined part is the problem. Show me another set that has a ridiculous crash incorporated into the set to get the set to function on a level roughly equivalent to the other sets in its pool? And yes, the rest of the SS powers are kinda terrible in comparison to other sets. I remember people begging to have jab and punch switched back in the day. 

 

You wanna talk penalties for use? Granite armor. Lots of penalties, but you become god. And what has happened to stone armor? They removed the penalty from rooted, and now have eased the ones on granite. And still, those penalties were not as harsh as the ones SS gets for using rage. As well, they could be worked around. Show me the IO set that cancels out rages damage crash. Rage is an 80% damage boost, which honestly in parity, is the number really that high? How much of the % is wasted just bringing the SS attacks on par with similar tier attacks on other sets. 30%? 50%? So truly the tohit buff is the only fully useable bonus for the power, until its double stacked.

 

Every single one of stones powers surpasses SS except tremor. And now that fault will be getting damage, the disparity is greater. 

 

But honestly, my argument is simple; Rage with a crash is dumb, it kills the playability of the set, and thematically just makes no sense except for one subset of comic archetypes which now have an ENTIRE AT based on their concept.

 

Take rage away, buff SS damage up to on par with other sets, come up with a new mechanic to make the set unique. Bring back the old bruising idea where every SS power has a chance to bruise and lower enemies resists. Come up with something for rage that doesn't boost damage. The bruising effect will work similar to a damage buff anyway, and with the current proc meta, actually be sought after.

 

And bloody well give it to scrappers already.

[Erratic1]

11 minutes ago, Verfall said:

And the underlined part is the problem. Show me another set that has a ridiculous crash incorporated into the set to get the set to function on a level roughly equivalent to the other sets in its pool? And yes, the rest of the SS powers are kinda terrible in comparison to other sets. I remember people begging to have jab and punch switched back in the day. 

 

Why would I try to show you a mechanical equivalent with another set when the mechanic is the thing meant to make the set stand apart from other sets?

 

I can only imagine Tankers asking for swapping Jab and Punch since the other AT which has Super Strength can forego Jab and Punch. But guess what...not wanting the first power in an powerset is universal for Tankers because it is the weakest. So that is not a desire which only exist in regards to Super Strength.

 

11 minutes ago, Verfall said:

You wanna talk penalties for use? Granite armor. Lots of penalties, but you become god. And what has happened to stone armor? They removed the penalty from rooted, and now have eased the ones on granite. And still, those penalties were not as harsh as the ones SS gets for using rage. As well, they could be worked around. Show me the IO set that cancels out rages damage crash. Rage is an 80% damage boost, which honestly in parity, is the number really that high? How much of the % is wasted just bringing the SS attacks on par with similar tier attacks on other sets. 30%? 50%? So truly the tohit buff is the only fully useable bonus for the power, until its double stacked.

 

If Rage moved you to the damage cap the comparison with Granite might be more sound. Rage does not do so or even remotely come close. Heck, double stacked Rage does not come close.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Verfall said:

 

Every single one of stones powers surpasses SS except tremor. And now that fault will be getting damage, the disparity is greater. 

 

As noted, permanently on, penalty-less Rage would have every SS power doing more damage the Stone. How do you justify that?

 

11 minutes ago, Verfall said:

 

But honestly, my argument is simple; Rage with a crash is dumb, it kills the playability of the set, and thematically just makes no sense except for one subset of comic archetypes which now have an ENTIRE AT based on their concept.

 

Please show me where I have argued for a Rage crash. Go ahead...I'll wait.

.

.

.

*whistles while he waits*

.

.

.

Can't find it, eh? That is because  what I  did was (a) correct your notion that Rage only brings SS up to where Stone is (it goes not, it goes past that) and (b) questioned, based on the fact that SS with Rage up deals more damage than Stone (and by implication most if not all other sets) if you really thought  Rage without penalty was going to fly.

 

 

 

[Snarky]

8 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

 

Smashing Resistance does not mean you do not do any damage or even that much less damage on the whole. Apparently the highest smashing resistances values (excluding AVs, Elite Bosses, Giant Monsters) are 35-40% but only on, "Council werewolves, Circle of Thorns Ghosts, and non-stone Devouring Earth. (1)" Moreover, across encounters Smashing is not the most commonly encountered...or the second or third most encountered--those being Lethal, Toxic, and Psionic. So Battle Axe, Broad Sword, Claws, Dual Blades, Katana, Savage Melee, and Spines come up against their nemesis resistance more frequently.

 

Moreover Martial Arts, Staff, and Stone Melee, Street Justice, and War Mace are also Smashing Sets. Do they get to have an always on damage boost of some value to make up for where Super Strength would  be?

 

 

(1) http://www.reddit.com/r/Cityofheroes/comments/c9yaot/general_enemy_average_damage_resistance_numbers/

 

 

 

Smashing may not be the highest resisted damage.  But it is very commonly resisted.  

 

Also. Comparing what damages PvE enemies do and resist with what players do and resist is not a straight up apples to apples comparison.

 

MA, Staff, StJ and War Mace all have boosts and gimmicks going for them that SS does not.  Are you talking about removing those build ups and benefits and doing a comparison then?  If so you might have a point.  It is stupid to do, but sure, then you would need to give the sets something.  Perhaps like the build ups and benefits those sets have.  As a guess.

[Erratic1]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

Smashing may not be the highest resisted damage.  But it is very commonly resisted.  

 

Also. Comparing what damages PvE enemies do and resist with what players do and resist is not a straight up apples to apples comparison.

 

The point was what the enemies resist and what other sets also face Smashing resistance.

 

 

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

 

MA, Staff, StJ and War Mace all have boosts and gimmicks going for them that SS does not.  Are you talking about removing those build ups and benefits and doing a comparison then?  If so you might have a point.  It is stupid to do, but sure, then you would need to give the sets something.  Perhaps like the build ups and benefits those sets have.  As a guess.

 

 They have the suggested all the time on +80% damage?

[Snarky]

38 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

The point was what the enemies resist and what other sets also face Smashing resistance.

 

 

 

 They have the suggested all the time on +80% damage?

No.  
They have their buffs, gimmicks, and other benefits.

 

Also, you ignored the fact i pointed out Smashing was a very commonly resisted/defended against damage type.  

 

So, lets just agree to ignore each other fully, rather than this part time crap eh?

[Erratic1]

28 minutes ago, Snarky said:

No.  
They have their buffs, gimmicks, and other benefits.

 

Also, you ignored the fact i pointed out Smashing was a very commonly resisted/defended against damage type.  

 

So, lets just agree to ignore each other fully, rather than this part time crap eh?

 

Just like Super Strength's gimmick is Rage and given its duration I think on the whole it is a superior gimmick even with a crash.

 

Also I did not ignore a blessed thing. I chose not to respond to something because it was not worth arguing.

 

If you want to ignore me, that is fine. I accept that some people find disagreement at any level draining. But I am probably going to respond to posts unless I feel the other person is a miserable jerk--something I  have no reason to think of you. People disagree.

[Snarky]

5 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Just like Super Strength's gimmick is Rage and given its duration I think on the whole it is a superior gimmick even with a crash.

 

Also I did not ignore a blessed thing. I chose not to respond to something because it was not worth arguing.

 

If you want to ignore me, that is fine. I accept that some people find disagreement at any level draining. But I am probably going to respond to posts unless I feel the other person is a miserable jerk--something I  have no reason to think of you. People disagree.

i disagree

[Erratic1]

27 minutes ago, Snarky said:

i disagree

 

[Verfall]

13 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

 

Can't find it, eh? That is because  what I  did was (a) correct your notion that Rage only brings SS up to where Stone is (it goes not, it goes past that) and (b) questioned, based on the fact that SS with Rage up deals more damage than Stone (and by implication most if not all other sets) if you really thought  Rage without penalty was going to fly.

 

 

And the bolded and underlined part shows me you only just picked out certain things I said for the sake of argument. I never wanted a crashless rage. Never even entertained the thought.

 

I wanted Rage blasted into the sun. Gone. Poof. Vamoose.

 

I want SS to have a gimmick with no crash, that puts it on par with the rest of the sets. I hate double stacked rage. Do I use it? of course. Would I miss it? Probably not. Unless you're chasing DPS, rage is a giant pain in the butt. I want consistent damage, on par with the other sets, with a new gimmick. Give me something that if I put SS next to every other set, I could be in the middle to upper range of damage without twiddling my thumbs for 10 seconds, or in my case, using sands of mu or a taunt in a team.

 

Super Strength is one of THE super hero sets. Like top 5. And yet the way it's implemented here is so bizarre. Relying on a power that imitates a minority of the SS using heroes from the media this game is based on to make a set functional is not how it should work.

 

Hell, to put it mildly, I want SS nerfed. Nerf it to the ground, than build it up using 2021 knowledge. It is not 200whatever anymore. There's a wealth of game knowledge we can look to to make the set, a SUPER HERO DEFININING SET, much more fitting of the name. Gut it, than rebuild it.

[Erratic1]

6 hours ago, Verfall said:

And the bolded and underlined part shows me you only just picked out certain things I said for the sake of argument. I never wanted a crashless rage. Never even entertained the thought.

 

Your words:

 

 

Quote

 

Which they in turn made into the basis for an entire AT when villains came out.

 

Brute's are what Rage should have been from day one.

 

Screw making it a toggle. Give SS a damage modifier equal to one stack of rage, than make it a smashing version of fiery embrace. Put a small minus resist proc on the first 3 SS attacks to make them special and call it a day. Or anything else. I dunno anymore.

 

forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/32531-ssinv-how-bad-is-the-rage-crash/?do=findComment&comment=416537

 

 

1.  I really hate when people think they have some special insight into me and know my motives ala, "....shows me you only just picked out certain things I said for the sake of argument." Unless you're a telepath, can logically eliminate any other motive beyond a person's response, or the person says, "Here is what I am thinking" it is incredbly insulting and poor form to ascribe motive. Notice, I am not here saying, "You're trying to weasel out of your words" because that would be insulting. Instead I quote what you wrote, which I responded to, which has one salient point--"Give SS a damage modifier equal to one stack of rage, than make it a smashing version of fiery embrace. Put a small minus resist proc on the first 3 SS attacks to make them special and call it a day. Or anything else. I dunno anymore." 
2. You did not object in your response  to my questioning the reasonableness of this until just this post I am responding to but you are going to insinuate some malign motive on my part now?

 

 

6 hours ago, Verfall said:

 

I wanted Rage blasted into the sun. Gone. Poof. Vamoose.

 

I want SS to have a gimmick with no crash, that puts it on par with the rest of the sets. I hate double stacked rage. Do I use it? of course. Would I miss it? Probably not. Unless you're chasing DPS, rage is a giant pain in the butt. I want consistent damage, on par with the other sets, with a new gimmick. Give me something that if I put SS next to every other set, I could be in the middle to upper range of damage without twiddling my thumbs for 10 seconds, or in my case, using sands of mu or a taunt in a team.

 

I could quibble on some of the foundational parts of your desire but that's immaterial to the desire, but I have no  particular desire for or attachment to the crash. I am quite willing to see Rage changed. It would seem to me the most straightforward thing to do would be something ala Bio--when you're in Rage there are associated penalties. But do note Bio's Offensive stance is only a 30% boost to damage in exchange for a 7.5%  resistance penalty.

 

It seems to me that what the developers were trying to  emulate with the Crash was a certain green skin, "ME SMASH!!!" character who will not be mentioned by name who grows tired once his rage wears off--the endurance crash--and logic'ed to themselves that while ragining you would not care if you were hit so there is the defensive penalty. But thematic and playability/enjoyability are two different things, especially as on top of that they put out set which needs to use Rage or underperform. By contrast Bio does not underperform if you do not use Offensive stance, Rad Melee does not underperform if you do not use the Contaminated mechanism. 

 

While I am not advocating the following because its early and I have not had time to think it through, I could see an argument for  adjusting SS attack values up to equivalent with other sets, so if you do not choose to  use Rage you will not underperform.  We already have powers which  come with a limited number of uses in a period of time before they go on full cooldown and otherwise cycle back to their ground state if those subsequent uses do not occur (e.g. Combat Teleport). Leave Rage as a click power but allow for it to be clicked a second time during its duration. One click gets you a 30-40% (rough numbers) damage boost in exchange for a 10% hit to Defense while the power is active. A second click during the power's active duration raises your damage bonus to 80%, tacks on another 10% hit to Defense and instead of crashing your doubles your endurance costs.

 

There is no crash. If you get low on endurance and have no way to gain more (Inv/SS) then your option is to lower your expenditure by not attacking as often (which emulates being weak and worn out). If you have some method of regaining endurance (Elec/SS) then you just don't care too much. Ohh wait a minute...can the penalty be tailored to hit  Regen sets in regeneration, Resist sets in  resistance, and Defense sets in defense values, and hybrid sets a little bit in all three? Would have to leave that to a developer to answer. If so, go with that, otherwise what I said before.

 

 

6 hours ago, Verfall said:

 

Super Strength is one of THE super hero sets. Like top 5. And yet the way it's implemented here is so bizarre. Relying on a power that imitates a minority of the SS using heroes from the media this game is based on to make a set functional is not how it should work.

 

Hell, to put it mildly, I want SS nerfed. Nerf it to the ground, than build it up using 2021 knowledge. It is not 200whatever anymore. There's a wealth of game knowledge we can look to to make the set, a SUPER HERO DEFININING SET, much more fitting of the name. Gut it, than rebuild it.

 

Well, its a statement of goals. Not much to say and I have to run to get things done just now.

[Marshal_General]

The thing is, we do not want to emulate that green skinned character. We want to emulate the other 99.9999999999999999% super strength comic characters.

 

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

The thing is, we do not want to emulate that green skinned character. We want to emulate the other 99.9999999999999999% super strength comic characters.

 

 

Pretty much this. Just make a toggle and be done with it. Screw HULK.

 

He's not even the first dude I think of when I think of super strength characters.

[Erratic1]

4 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

The thing is, we do not want to emulate that green skinned character. We want to emulate the other 99.9999999999999999% super strength comic characters.

 

 

Yes, but game balance is a thing (for some reason) and its not considered reasonable for a player with Super Strength to outperform the player with Claws in terms of dealing damage like say Hyperion vs Namor.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

Yes, but game balance is a thing (for some reason) and its not considered reasonable for a player with Super Strength to outperform the player with Claws in terms of dealing damage like say Hyperion vs Namor.

 

I think most know that. Recent tank overbuffs notwithstanding.

 

The point was that there are grossly more super strength using characters out in fiction-land that DON'T have some kind of ridiculous crash associated with being super strong. Not crashing is actually part and parcel to being super strong. Even the Hulk doesn't have a crash. If there's no threat, he goes away, yes, but he never crashes mid-fight. No matter how we cut it, it's been a ridiculous design since day 1 and should have been dealt with ages ago.

 

The game already has toggles within it that rage could be patterned after. Look at Shield Against All Odds. The idea of making it a no cost fury clone toggle ain't bad either.