SS/Inv-how bad is the Rage Crash?

[Ultimo]

I've often suggested that Rage be reworked (along with the rest of the Super Strength set).  My thought was that it be a toggle, that increases damage output, but at greater endurance cost and reduced accuracy.  The idea there would be that the character is usually holding back, and by turning on the toggle, they're "taking off the gloves," so to speak.

 

I don't like that the power set is so dependent on one or two powers (ie. Rage and KO Blow), and that it lacks any real sense of STRENGTH.  I mean, the defining thing about strength is that it allows you to lift and move heavy objects.  Watch the fight between Superman and Captain Marvel in the JLA animated series (Clash), and you'll see what I'm on about.  They do a lot of throwing things around, tons of collateral damage, they knock each other flying all the time.  In this game, there's none of that.  We can punch things, but LOTS of sets do that.  We don't even knock things around reliably.

 

I realize the engine doesn't support interacting with the environment in a meaningful way, but I feel like they could do some things to make the set feel like the character has STRENGTH.

 

I would like to see some cosmetic collateral damage in the form of cracks on surrounding terrain, and debris being tossed around (where appropriate).  I'd love to see more knockback, but a lot of people find that undesirable.  I'd slot knockback enhancers for my own enjoyment, but then I'd lose the ability to slot other, more necessary things (like damage).  So, I'd like to see them make knockback more desirable, perhaps by making it do some extra damage, relative to the distance knocked (this would even allow non-damaging powers like Force Bolt or Hand Clap to do some damage).  Finally, I would love to see more AOE attacks.  Martial artists like Batman or Captain America attack lots of foes by attacking quickly, one target at a time.  Super strong characters hit lots of foes at once by attacking with sweeping attacks or hitting them with large objects (like the big rock in Hurl).  Speaking of Hurl, I think it should come MUCH sooner in the set, as it's the only power in there that allows the character to lift a heavy object.  The object in question should be even larger if Rage is active, and in either case should be an AOE.

 

But, I don't want to derail things too much, so I'll stop here.

[Erratic1]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I think most know that. Recent tank overbuffs notwithstanding.

 

The point was that there are grossly more super strength using characters out in fiction-land that DON'T have some kind of ridiculous crash associated with being super strong. Not crashing is actually part and parcel to being super strong. Even the Hulk doesn't have a crash. If there's no threat, he goes away, yes, but he never crashes mid-fight. No matter how we cut it, it's been a ridiculous design since day 1 and should have been dealt with ages ago.

 

The game already has toggles within it that rage could be patterned after. Look at Shield Against All Odds. The idea of making it a no cost fury clone toggle ain't bad either.

 

Against All Odds provides a damage bonus of 10%+5.5%/foe. So I guess if you keep a crowd of 12 minions around to keep your damage up the comparison to Rage would be apt.

 

Here's the thing about people knowing that balance is a thing.... Would people be happy with a powerset call Super Strength which does the same damage (due to game balance) as other sets and only gives you the appearance of having super strength ala Hurl's picking up slabs of concrete to throw at people, knocking people down by stomping your feet, clapping your hand and dispersing nearby foes, and knocking people up in the air? It would be balanced.

 

The issue I see with making Rage a Fury mechanic toggle is that Fury is relatively easy to keep up. So either the character is routinely outperforming other damage sets or the power is necessary to take in order to get where other powersets already are, so you're behind the curve before you can take the power or if you choose not to take it. Certainly I do not want the latter situation. But I can only see the former situation being acceptable to the developers if there is something offsetting it. Does not have to be crash. I keep saying I am in no way enamored of a crash and yet people keep going on about the crash. Last thing I suggested had no crash involved:

 

Quote

One click gets you a 30-40% (rough numbers) damage boost in exchange for a 10% hit to Defense while the power is active. A second click during the power's active duration raises your damage bonus to 80%, tacks on another 10% hit to Defense and instead of crashing your doubles your endurance costs.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

Would people be happy with a powerset call Super Strength which does the same damage (due to game balance) as other sets and only gives you the appearance of having super strength ala Hurl's picking up slabs of concrete to throw at people, knocking people down by stomping your feet, clapping your hand and dispersing nearby foes, and knocking people up in the air? It would be balanced.

 

I don't care if they care, nor do I care how it's fixed. The math is available to make it a balanced set with no crash and it should be fixed accordingly because the current situation is just plain dumb.

 

Thus my rageless bunny...

 

Or just leave it alone and do nothing cuz it's a no-win situation.

 

Or do both. Pull a Sentinel SR trick. Leave Rage exactly as is and add another power that's a passive clone of fury at half the value. Potential +100% damage at 100% SS Fury (obviously call it something else) but you have to work for it. Choose one and it locks you out of the other.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Ultimo]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I don't care if they care, nor do I care how it's fixed. The math is available to make it a balanced set with no crash and it should be fixed accordingly because the current situation is just plain dumb.

 

Thus my rageless bunny...

 

Or just leave it alone and do nothing cuz it's a no-win situation.

 

Or do both. Pull a Sentinel SR trick. Leave Rage exactly as is and add another power that's a passive clone of fury at half the value. Potential +100% damage at 100% SS Fury (obviously call it something else) but you have to work for it. Choose one and it locks you out of the other.

They might call it "Momentum."

[Snarky]

Super Strength is great.  I love it.  I love the old school concept. I have stories to tell about SS toons.  But the rage crash….  I started on SS Brutes.  Played them for years. Prefer 1 stack Rage due to crash mgt.  would love it to be a toggle.  Will not ever play it again until something changes

 

Doing what Bill Z Bub said is wise. Possibly a second SS set that us exactly the same except with a different buff (as suggested by BZB).  If that would be mechanically easier to implement 

[Erratic1]

9 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Or do both. Pull a Sentinel SR trick. Leave Rage exactly as is and add another power that's a passive clone of fury at half the value. Potential +100% damage at 100% SS Fury (obviously call it something else) but you have to work for it. Choose one and it locks you out of the other.

 

So your idea is to have a choice between +80% damage, stackable with a crash and +100% damage no crash, "...[that] you have to work for...."?

 

Against All Odds gives 10%+5.5% bonus damage for foes nearby with the obvious downsides that minimally you get 15.5% bonus and to remotely approach 100% bonus damage you'd need 16 enemies nearby.

Bio's Offfensive stance gives a flat 25% damage bonus which comes nowhere near +100% in exchange for a 7.5% hit to resistance values.

 

Not personally seeing how "hav[ing] to work for it" remotely is on the same scale as comes with enemies beating on you or taking a resistance hit (which I guess if were scaled to a +100% damage bonus would be more on the order of 30%), let alone only at only +80% damage bonus getting a following endurance/defense crash but if the developers are game to give that to Super Strength along with sparkle unicorns and double rainbows I certainly will not argue against it.

[Haijinx]

On 11/17/2021 at 1:52 PM, ZemX said:

 No way anybody is getting even 1-stack Rage as a toggle with no crash because that's Build Up... except always on.

 

And yet, when offered a no crash single rage option by Capt PH, it was rejected.

[Bill Z Bubba]

28 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

And yet, when offered a no crash single rage option by Capt PH, it was rejected.

 

What were the values he proposed? I missed all of that apparently.

[Snarky]

I would go so dar as to say build an entirely different (but similar) SS set with no Rage.  Toggle instead of Rage cycle.  Called MIGHt or something.  1) Hand Clap is....meh>  meh a good word?  meh.  Hurl.  Okay, picking up slabs of street and throwing it.  1) childish 2) disrespectful 3) inefficient.  But since we cannot even get a consensus on the Rage issue I am entirely sure yjis idea is about as useful as straw building material in a hurricane.  carry on....

[Erratic1]

19 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

What were the values he proposed? I missed all of that apparently.

 

Best I can find is the third post in this thread: 

 

 

Quote

I thought to start a new thread on this myself but might as well just post here:

 

I mentioned this on beta, but the crash avoidance mechanic has been rolled back and wont be going through. SS is going back to the drawing table. There are many issues with SS and Rage. Its extremely powerful solo [even with the nasty crash, IMO] but a weak base of damage and heavy reliance on self-damage-buffing means in groups the set can suffer, since they end up having a lower damage ceiling.

 

I don't have any numbers to share just yet, but my plan is to keep Rage a long duration click that stacks, however, it will be weakened in strength in exchange of having nearly every single power in the set improved enough for the set to remain competitive. All Rage crashes would, of course, be removed.

 

No crash, lower +Damage value, SS powers adjusted (upward presumably) to compensate.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Erratic1

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Best I can find is the third post in this thread: 

 

 

 

No crash, lower +Damage value, SS powers adjusted (upward presumably) to compensate.

 

Sounds logical and sound. No wonder folks around here rejected it.

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Sounds logical and sound. No wonder folks around here rejected it.

 

I do not see rejection in that thread (its short) but there may have been another one.

[Haijinx]

39 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

What were the values he proposed? I missed all of that apparently.

 

Single Rage had zero crash, Double+ Rage got a Crash.  It was still a click with a Halo effect like many of the attack gimmicks we have now.  

The Double rage changed the -20 Def to a 20% Resist and -10 Def crash

 

Full Rage value +20 / +80 just like now 

[Haijinx]

23 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Sounds logical and sound. No wonder folks around here rejected it.

 

The one I am talking about was actually implemented on Test, not this one.  So its later.  No one was interested in any sort of damage reduction to single rage because they like how broken foot stomp is but want to pretend that it is not a PBAOE outlier. 

[Snarky]

so 1) we are still talking about this 10+ years later 2) nothing will ever change 3) they will solve global warming before they figure this one out

 

carry on.  

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

so 1) we are still talking about this 10+ years later 2) nothing will ever change 3) they will solve global warming before they figure this one out

I don't usually agree with Snarky, but when I do it's because he's right.

 

The devs should at least address this in the forums one way or another. If they're not going to change Rage then at least let us know that.

[Supertanker]

My suggestion is just to create a separate "Might Melee" set that doesn't have Rage and can be ported to Scrappers/Stalkers. No changes to Super Strength so no one can complain (but they would anyway.)

[A Cat]

12 hours ago, Haijinx said:

 

The one I am talking about was actually implemented on Test, not this one.  So its later.  No one was interested in any sort of damage reduction to single rage because they like how broken foot stomp is but want to pretend that it is not a PBAOE outlier. 

Here's my hot take. Having a super legit foot stomp is the least they can do for having no aoe in your melee set until t9. If anything, outliers should not be avoided entirely since it adds to differentiation of sets. It can just be another way to balance things overall, especially for older sets without other mechanics like combos or whatever to spice up the gameplay. 

[Haijinx]

26 minutes ago, A Cat said:

Here's my hot take. Having a super legit foot stomp is the least they can do for having no aoe in your melee set until t9. If anything, outliers should not be avoided entirely since it adds to differentiation of sets. It can just be another way to balance things overall, especially for older sets without other mechanics like combos or whatever to spice up the gameplay. 

 

That's kind of the whole thing about SS, its the definition of a late bloomer.   With a durable IO build, Double Rage and with Footstomp its pretty awesome, but damn are those early levels painful.

[ZemX]

On 11/20/2021 at 8:25 AM, Haijinx said:

And yet, when offered a no crash single rage option by Capt PH, it was rejected.

 

Got a link?  Because I don't see this proposal (or a rejection) in the thread @Erratic1 linked.

 

To be clear, the post of mine you are responding to here was about making Rage a permanent 1-stack of its current incarnation, with no crash.  i.e. a permanent Build Up, essentially.  I have trouble believing anybody rejected that unless it was because they thought it was TOO powerful.   Which it is.

[Haijinx]

9 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Got a link?  Because I don't see this proposal (or a rejection) in the thread @Erratic1 linked.

 

To be clear, the post of mine you are responding to here was about making Rage a permanent 1-stack of its current incarnation, with no crash.  i.e. a permanent Build Up, essentially.  I have trouble believing anybody rejected that unless it was because they thought it was TOO powerful.   Which it is.

 

No they rejected it because they felt it was a bit klutzy with the halo ring, and some were annoyed that they were going to still get the crash on Double Rage.  

 

Remember that side of the argument claims the base numbers of SS are so so low that they need a single stack of rage just to be as good as normal sets. 

 

I'd have to find it, its in the beta server section If I remember correctly. 

[Haijinx]

10 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Got a link?  Because I don't see this proposal (or a rejection) in the thread @Erratic1 linked.

 

To be clear, the post of mine you are responding to here was about making Rage a permanent 1-stack of its current incarnation, with no crash.  i.e. a permanent Build Up, essentially.  I have trouble believing anybody rejected that unless it was because they thought it was TOO powerful.   Which it is.

 

It was the Focused Feedback thread that grew out of this post by Capt PH 

 

So it was around that time period.   The search feature could use a little improvement, or my ability to use it could.  I'm having trouble finding just threads in Beta with Rage in them from x date to y date. 

 

So yeah, for a short time in May of 2019 Single stacked Rage was most definitely not going to have a crash, but the values would have been full.  Caph PH is talking about it like its a done deal here.   Course it WAS a done deal till the double ragers .. um .. raged about it. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Haijinx

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

 

It was the Focused Feedback thread that grew out of this post by Capt PH 

 

So it was around that time period.   The search feature could use a little improvement, or my ability to use it could.  I'm having trouble finding just threads in Beta with Rage in them from x date to y date. 

 

So yeah, for a short time in May of 2019 Single stacked Rage was most definitely not going to have a crash, but the values would have been full.  Caph PH is talking about it like its a done deal here.   Course it WAS a done deal till the double ragers .. um .. raged about it. 

Those with the most loud angry voices win.  But i will continue to lob piercing snarky comments about it for the next twenty years

[PeregrineFalcon]

Ok, so I've been thinking about this and I have an idea. Yeah, someone else probably had this same idea 15 years ago. I'm no genius, etc., etc., etc.

 

Anyway, my idea is to change Rage to be both a toggle and a click, if this can be done.

 

As a toggle it functions much as a single click of Rage with no crash.

 

Once clicked however it gives an enormous damage and tohit bonus, equal to 2 stacks of Rage, that lasts for 20 seconds. Just long enough for someone to give their "World of Cardboard" speech. This would be followed by the standard crash and Rage would take another 60 seconds to recharge so that it can be toggled on or clicked again.

 

Let the roasting commence! 😁

[Snarky]

14 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ok, so I've been thinking about this and I have an idea. Yeah, someone else probably had this same idea 15 years ago. I'm no genius, etc., etc., etc.

 

Anyway, my idea is to change Rage to be both a toggle and a click, if this can be done.

 

As a toggle it functions much as a single click of Rage with no crash.

 

Once clicked however it gives an enormous damage and tohit bonus, equal to 2 stacks of Rage, that lasts for 20 seconds. Just long enough for someone to give their "World of Cardboard" speech. This would be followed by the standard crash and Rage would take another 60 seconds to recharge so that it can be toggled on or clicked again.

 

Let the roasting commence! 😁

Yeah. No.  
 

1) you over think this

 

2) many simpler (and arguably better) solutions have been offered

 

3) they will do nothing

3a) catering to they “waaah you wanna steal my double stack” crowd by doing nothing is easier than fixing a long standing issue