Puzzled...why?

[Ukase]

A lot has changed for me in since the latest patch hit. I've been angry, delighted, wrong, right, against something, only to be persuaded to look at things differently. 

I am truly puzzled sometimes at what goes through the minds of those that are running this game. 

Fact or fiction: Only 10% of the player base reads and posts on the forums. 

Fact or fiction: The game is too easy. For everybody. At all levels. Only at incarnate levels. 

Fact or fiction: The new Master of TF/SF settings are good for the game. 


I could go on. And on. I'm really trying to have an open mind, but I'm old, and it's difficult. I've been trained to not be easily swayed and skeptical. I was toilet-trained at gunpoint, what can I say? 

Hidden in gigantic letters and a picture in the patch notes that I somehow overlooked, turns out a Master of Kahn or Barracuda disallows incarnate powers. Never mind that I have 5 characters that got the Master of Kahn and Master of Barracuda (more properly known as Master of the 5th Column Task Force and Master of the 5th Column Strike Force, respectively). And they got to use incarnate powers. 

So are those characters to be stripped of this badge and forced to re-earn it? That doesn't seem to be the case. Yet, as far as I know, there's no distinction between the badges, whether earned pre or post patch. Is that right? Is it proper? Am I making too much fuss out of nothing? I've been fairly isolated due to the pandemic, and remain so, and as a result, I can hardly tell when I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. 

I already know some are for, and some are against any issue presented. It made sense that with the 3 new Master trials - Eden, ASN, and MC that they might be set up differently, as they're trials and not task forces. Not at all sure why they have two terms for the same type of experience. What's the difference, anyway? So, when I saw that incarnates were disabled for these new master trials, I didn't think much of it. But to modify the requirements for badges that are already earned in game goes against the grain of how this game has been run. 

I encourage the HC devs to think about this a bit more. This inability to use incarnates during a master TF/SF is a new requirement for badges other folks have already earned much more easily. I don't think this is the right way. In fact, I KNOW it's not the right or fair thing to do. But I'm not paying a penny, so all I have is this forum to encourage you to rethink your position on this. For new badges, go nuts if you must. But for badges that are already in game...that's not right. At least, I don't think it's right. Opinions will vary, as they often do. 

I'm sure there are people that play this game and enjoy such challenges. I like some challenges, but I like challenges that let me use my character's powers to it's full effect. Like in Really Hard Way, in the Magisterium. Even the disallowing of buffs I'd already paid 8 hours for that are now wasted, because they're not a toggle as was earlier suggested they would become is okay, because I can still use the powers that I earned, as opposed the ones I paid for from p2w.

Now, a master run is more like an ouroboros challenge mission. None of this, none of that. Forget those countless runs of BAF and Heather Townsend. Those powers you earned mean nothing to anyone now. If you want to use them, you'll have to do non-master run activities. No badges for you. 

I don't think I'm alone in stating that while some of us like challenges, we want to use our powers, too. All of them. 

[A Cat]

I am not a hard core badger, so to me badges are a side thing that is optional and just for fun. I don't need any badge outside ones that unlock accolade powers or a cool title. I'll still go for badges, but only if they're not a total pain in the ass. Restrictions on what you can bring to bear for a certain badge therefore don't bother me since I am don't feel that strongly about badges to begin with. They are not my final goal. I have no idea what my final goal is but I'm not making my character fully sick and fully built to get that Master Of badge. So it doesn't bother me that there's a challenge that I have to surrender some of my powers for. That's just like my opinion though man. I'm sure you can disagree, as is your right. I'm just guessing that the devs are thinking of people like me when they make these decisions maybe. But who knows for sure other than the devs. 

[TheZag]

It doesnt bug me that those badges became harder to earn with no distinction between the two.  In the long run i think the consistency of all master runs having the same requirements was more important in this case.  I dont want the devs doing it constantly though.

 

I can picture some of the conversations though if it was left alone. 

'Master of eden LFM' 

'Is that the one with no incarnates?'

'Ya'

'Ok nvm'

 

Or the run starts and they notice their destiny is disabled and leave at that point.  Not that these would occur often but thats why i appreciate them being standardized.

 

More content to give those incarnate abilities a workout is coming eventually too.  Possibly even challenge settings on old content.  Doing posi 2 with a dr vahz at lvl 54+2 would be fun,  for me anyway.

[Troo]

@Ukase you are not completely off base.

[tidge]

I saw the thread title an immediately thought of the dialog in Theoden's SSA1 arc in Skyway.

 

For the record: I don't mind challenges that deny players powers, or those that buff enemies.

Edited December 16, 2021 by tidge

[iBot]

I'm still firmly in the camp that incarnates are in serious need of a refactor pass.  Added so late in the life cycle they never really got any attention in terms of real balance or diversity passes.  For any given set there are clear top picks and others that I'd be willing to bet good inf very few if any actually pick up.  So that is one problem.

 

The second is the change of requirements for any badge in game.  I wonder if it is harder for them to add new badges rather than retool the requirements of an existing badge.  For the people that already have the badge, the new requirements are pointless because it isn't like they can earn the badge a second time.  For the people that don't have the badge, it no longer compares apples to apples in that the new method is more difficult.  I'd much rather the devs leave the badges alone and add new ones for newer mechanics or retoolings.  That way it is obvious for those that care under what circumstances that badge was earned.

 

I do not agree with the design decision that removing powers from the player is good for "challenge".  I earned those powers.  I did everything asked to make my character as powerful as possible and now the devs are saying "Oh sorry you have to play with one hand and one eye closed in order to be considered a 'master'".  No thanks.  I'd much rather see them add incarnate level powers to the mobs to even the playing field rather than remove my powers just cause.

 

Anyway... my 0.02 inf 👍

[Ukase]

6 minutes ago, TheZag said:

It doesnt bug me that those badges became harder to earn with no distinction between the two.  In the long run i think the consistency of all master runs having the same requirements was more important in this case.  I dont want the devs doing it constantly though.

 

I can picture some of the conversations though if it was left alone. 

'Master of eden LFM' 

'Is that the one with no incarnates?'

'Ya'

'Ok nvm'

 

Or the run starts and they notice their destiny is disabled and leave at that point.  Not that these would occur often but thats why i appreciate them being standardized.

 

More content to give those incarnate abilities a workout is coming eventually too.  Possibly even challenge settings on old content.  Doing posi 2 with a dr vahz at lvl 54+2 would be fun,  for me anyway.

Good points, I appreciate it. 
 

[Glacier Peak]

Like I've always said, if a player wants a badge, they will fulfill the requirements to earn it. 

[Ura Hero]

This sort of thing happened a lot on Live.  Rikti Monkeys comes to mind.  It used to be some absolutely insane number.  The devs reduced it.  The hardcores complained, the people with less time available were happy.

 

The reverse happened as well.  Requirements for some badges were tightened up to match other similar badges.   The ones that had gotten the easy badge were happy, those that hadn't were mad.

 

It's the circle of life.  *cue Lion King

[iBot]

I remember the Rikti monkey change.  Happened shortly after I'd spent several days running around herding the darn things together then nuking them for the 10,000 version.  I think that one badge more than any other proved to me that I really didn't care any longer about getting badges except for on one character and even then it was only ones that would come naturally as you played.  Never farmed another.

[Snarky]

Interesting how things evolve isn’t it?

[Marshal_General]

I generally don't go for badges that depend on other people's ability.

 

Unless they are better than me!

[Bionic_Flea]

I wish they had kept the requirements for "Master of" badges the same but added a "Grandmaster of" series of badges with no incarnates added on as a difficulty factor.

[SuperPlyx]

I will never understand the logic of not raising the mobs or missions difficulty, let's just nerf the players.

One example I would make is Endurance management, I know I'm not alone in using Incarnates for end issues.....but like others have said "then don't do it"...well, ok, I won't.

[Albion]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

A lot has changed for me in since the latest patch hit. I've been angry, delighted, wrong, right, against something, only to be persuaded to look at things differently. 

I am truly puzzled sometimes at what goes through the minds of those that are running this game. 

Fact or fiction: Only 10% of the player base reads and posts on the forums. 

Fact or fiction: The game is too easy. For everybody. At all levels. Only at incarnate levels. 

Fact or fiction: The new Master of TF/SF settings are good for the game. 


I could go on. And on. I'm really trying to have an open mind, but I'm old, and it's difficult. I've been trained to not be easily swayed and skeptical. I was toilet-trained at gunpoint, what can I say? 

Hidden in gigantic letters and a picture in the patch notes that I somehow overlooked, turns out a Master of Kahn or Barracuda disallows incarnate powers. Never mind that I have 5 characters that got the Master of Kahn and Master of Barracuda (more properly known as Master of the 5th Column Task Force and Master of the 5th Column Strike Force, respectively). And they got to use incarnate powers. 

So are those characters to be stripped of this badge and forced to re-earn it? That doesn't seem to be the case. Yet, as far as I know, there's no distinction between the badges, whether earned pre or post patch. Is that right? Is it proper? Am I making too much fuss out of nothing? I've been fairly isolated due to the pandemic, and remain so, and as a result, I can hardly tell when I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. 

I already know some are for, and some are against any issue presented. It made sense that with the 3 new Master trials - Eden, ASN, and MC that they might be set up differently, as they're trials and not task forces. Not at all sure why they have two terms for the same type of experience. What's the difference, anyway? So, when I saw that incarnates were disabled for these new master trials, I didn't think much of it. But to modify the requirements for badges that are already earned in game goes against the grain of how this game has been run. 

I encourage the HC devs to think about this a bit more. This inability to use incarnates during a master TF/SF is a new requirement for badges other folks have already earned much more easily. I don't think this is the right way. In fact, I KNOW it's not the right or fair thing to do. But I'm not paying a penny, so all I have is this forum to encourage you to rethink your position on this. For new badges, go nuts if you must. But for badges that are already in game...that's not right. At least, I don't think it's right. Opinions will vary, as they often do. 

I'm sure there are people that play this game and enjoy such challenges. I like some challenges, but I like challenges that let me use my character's powers to it's full effect. Like in Really Hard Way, in the Magisterium. Even the disallowing of buffs I'd already paid 8 hours for that are now wasted, because they're not a toggle as was earlier suggested they would become is okay, because I can still use the powers that I earned, as opposed the ones I paid for from p2w.

Now, a master run is more like an ouroboros challenge mission. None of this, none of that. Forget those countless runs of BAF and Heather Townsend. Those powers you earned mean nothing to anyone now. If you want to use them, you'll have to do non-master run activities. No badges for you. 

I don't think I'm alone in stating that while some of us like challenges, we want to use our powers, too. All of them. 

There is a lot of things to consider, codes, testing of mechanics, issues dragged from live, issues that come up with new things added, specific vocal conglomerates inside the player base, attempts at global balance, preparation for content to come, future plans, a royal mess, there will be always some people unhappy, confused or raging about some changes, while there will be others delighted and cheering, too many different views and wants, in the end you are just gonna end up not enjoying the game anymore if you pay it too much attention, express your disagreement as it all goes on record and counts for future reference, then carry on playing and enjoying the parts of the game you like, we tend to forget we couldn't even play some time ago, so it is actually a good thing not digging something, reminds us the game is here and it's here to stay.

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

Fact or fiction: Only 10% of the player base reads and posts on the forums. 

 

It seems to me that the case is for a majority of games, it is less than 10% of the player base that goes to a game's forum for any other reason to get an answer for a specific question.

Due to the nature of this game and the percentage of players from before the sunset, I'm guessing the percentage might be a little higher here, but look around and you see the same people participating in the forums consistently,  and it really isn't that many of us.

 

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

Fact or fiction: The game is too easy. For everybody. At all levels. Only at incarnate levels. 

 

Not sure that that means.

Is that multiple choice question?

Depends on experience, if you are running on a team or solo, what archetype you are playing, how you are slotted, what kind enhancements you are using, if you know the secret to fighting a certain enemy group, if you are willing to be flexible with your playstyle, are you new to the archetype or set  you are playing, etc.

 

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

Fact or fiction: The new Master of TF/SF settings are good for the game. 

 

If they keep the "the game is too easy" people quiet, it's good for the game.

I haven't used them myself and have no reason to adjust the difficulty outside of notoriety. I often have to adjust a task force difficulty from mission to mission based on how the missions are going the current team.

 

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

as far as I know, there's no distinction between the badges, whether earned pre or post patch. Is that right? Is it proper?

 

if the Devs took away a badge that some had already earned, people would be upset. Don't you agree?

Is it more difficult now? People were complaining that end-game missions weren't difficult enough. 

 

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

This inability to use incarnates during a master TF/SF is a new requirement for badges other folks have already earned much more easily. I don't think this is the right way. In fact, I KNOW it's not the right or fair thing to do.

 

it would be more unfair to take the badge away from characters that had already earned it. 

People were complaining that end-game missions weren't difficult enough.  They got what they wanted.

 

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

I don't think I'm alone in stating that while some of us like challenges, we want to use our powers, too. All of them. 

 

The grass is always greener on the other side, and you can't please everyone.

It is much easier for the DEVs to increase the difficulty of higher level missions by handicapping players that recoding enemies to make them more difficult to fight.

People were complaining that end-game missions weren't difficult enough.  They got what they wanted.

You are correct because you don't like it; you probably aren't the only one that doesn't like it.

 

For me, I don't care about the end-game. 

But I didn't know your post was going there with I first started replying to it.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

But to modify the requirements for badges that are already earned in game goes against the grain of how this game has been run. 

 

Zookeeper.

[Glacier Peak]

3 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Zookeeper.

That is a popular example, but far from the only one. OP might not realize it, but both the legacy devs and the HC devs have modified (increased and decreased) badge requirements since badges were introduced to the game. It is their prerogative to do so, to the chagrin of players sometimes.

[TheZag]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I wish they had kept the requirements for "Master of" badges the same but added a "Grandmaster of" series of badges with no incarnates added on as a difficulty factor.

 

Ive mentioned this ingame before but never on the forum.  Would be a real mess to add it now.

[Ironblade]

Fact or fiction: Only 10% of the player base reads and posts on the forums. 

Fact, although the exact number is debatable.  For many games it's less than 10%.  For this one, I think it has always been higher, ESPECIALLY now that you are required to visit the forums to create your game account.

Fact or fiction: The game is too easy. For everybody. At all levels. Only at incarnate levels. 

Fiction.  There is so much variation in player skill and ability that no game is too easy for everyone.

Fact or fiction: The new Master of TF/SF settings are good for the game. 
umm....  wrong question?  I don't see that they're either good or bad - they just are.

With the advantage of 20/20 hindsight, the Master badges should never have allowed incarnate powers.  But, since we can't go back and change the past, this seems like the next-best option.

 

 

P.S.  For the people mentioning the Zookeeper badge, HAH!  Yeah, I got it before it was reduced.  I also got the final healing badge before it was reduced TWICE by a factor of TEN EACH TIME.

[Ukase]

42 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

That is a popular example, but far from the only one. OP might not realize it, but both the legacy devs and the HC devs have modified (increased and decreased) badge requirements since badges were introduced to the game. It is their prerogative to do so, to the chagrin of players sometimes.

This is a fair point, and I appreciate the history reminder. I'd forgotten about this as well as a couple of others. 

[Ukase]

57 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

People were complaining that end-game missions weren't difficult enough.  They got what they wanted.

I think this is part of my issue. Not an issue with the game, but my own personal issue I have to come to grips with. 

"they" complained. "they" got what they wanted. 

I think "they" are a vocal minority. Why did "they" get what they wanted? 

I guess I'm just pissed because now, a LOT of the stuff I used to be able to solo with my lore pet, now I don't have the option anymore. My lore pet is disallowed because "they" didn't like it. Screw "them". I liked it, and I want it back. There, I said it. I only wish it made me feel better.

I'm intelligent enough to recognize this is my own issue. I fully realize the world doesn't revolve around me, least of all a free game that's come back after being shut down, at no cost to me. I am grateful. I am just concerned that these folks that tested this stuff are not a broad cross-section of the player base, but consists of a more narrow cross-section. 
It's not easy testing this stuff. Takes time, and I can appreciate the efforts involved by these folks, whomever they are. I just wish they'd thought about the folks that like to solo stuff. I much preferred soloing MoITF, making wise use of Lore pets and super inspirations. It was fun. But now, I can't do that option. I can do it regular style, without the MoTF challenge and still challenge myself, but now apparently though I was a master, now I'm not. Now I'm just another wannabe. Not very super at all, it turns out. 

I guess that's why it's called City of Heroes instead of City of Super Heroes. 

[Techwright]

2 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I wish they had kept the requirements for "Master of" badges the same but added a "Grandmaster of" series of badges with no incarnates added on as a difficulty factor.

 

I'd been thinking along somewhat similar lines, though I was considering a "gold palms" add-on for succeeding in the harder challenge of not using incarnate powers.

 

That said, maybe the way to go is to have a "grandmaster" badge where the instances ramps up to include features that demand the use of incarnate powers.

[Bionic_Flea]

I'm sorry, but I can't help it.  This is where my brain went when I read through:

 

Tell me why
Ain't nothin' but a heartache
Tell me why
Ain't nothin' but a mistake
Tell me why
I never wanna hear you say
I want it that way

 

 

I think Ukase is the bad boy non-conformist wearing a hat.

[iBot]

57 minutes ago, Ukase said:

"they" complained. "they" got what they wanted. 

I think "they" are a vocal minority. Why did "they" get what they wanted? 

As a general rule, whenever I see someone mention the mysterious "They" I immediately substitute "I" and the argument suddenly makes sense.  I doubt very much that the devs did a knee jerk reaction here and tried to appease some.  I'd like to think that reading through the public posts here that they truly understand that "pleasing everyone" is a myth and guide decisions based on what would be best for the game systems in the long run.  I'm not happy with the current state of things but there are certainly factors that no one on these forums short of the devs themselves are aware of.

 

I'd like to hope that the changes made in this latest update are merely a stepping stone to more advanced content that involves all of the fun powers we have access to.  Look at it this way: if I want to play my favorite toon without incarnates I'll run a TF that maxes my level below 45.  But darn it there are times when I want to rampage through wave after wave of mobs at my full level 53 and not be looked down upon because I enjoy it.  The people that want unbalanced powers or sets removed sometimes now have what they wanted and I'm happy for those that like that.  Now I just hope that those of us on the other end of the spectrum get something too.