Sweeping defense changes

[Sirius.Games]

The game is easy, let's be honest. You don't need IOs or incarnates for a number of sets. There is a time intensive fix.

 

The approach would be multi pronged:

 

1. Remove types for defenses

Removing types for defense would cause a choice for ATs and playstyles. It would mean that AE farms can't just cap a type, it would mean some ATs would be stronger later. It would also mean that you would have to make a choice on where and how you approach things. It would also make epics such as mace less appealing (lower numbers for a positional defense)

 

2. Remove dual type defenses

AoE becomes its own type exclusively, no more AoE+Melee/range. This means standing in a pile in the middle of enemies becomes more dangerous. It also makes AoE more dangerous as it is the most ignored defense type. Enemies with AoE become much more dangerous.

 

3. Increase the accuracy floor or the guaranteed hit roll increase

This would mean more hits coming in regardless of the above changes.

 

This change would increase the utility of ATs such as Dom's/controllers, bring high damage ATs back down, buff support rolls in general but FF and +def sets more. There will always be best options but this would force choices and bring thought in the game.

 

Immediate reactions and unintentional effects? I have more but my toddler has me on limited sleep.

[Bill Z Bubba]

It completely screws over defense based sets while barely harming resistance sets. It would also involve reworking every typed defense based set completely.

 

AoE Defense is already exclusively AoE Defense. Not sure what you mean there.

 

The game is too easy mostly because of IOs and Incarnates and partly due to powercreep in AT changes. Getting SOs at level 2 ain't helping even if I love that particular change.

 

Defense and how it functions isn't the problem.

[Sirius.Games]

My understanding is AoE is usually dual types ranged/AoE melee/AoE so capping to ranged and melee caps you to all three.

 

Defensive sets would only be harmed with the to hit change not the first two and sets that build for type would have to be changed to accommodate. This would make defensive sets more similar but with IOs are they all that different when your capped to all types vs all positions?

 

The new harder difficulty is a bandaid when people have to actively make the game more challenging the default option always wins. IOs and incarnates aren't going away and the game would benefit from a rebalance around them instead of trying to make everything homogeneous it forces diversity.

 

Incarnate abilities available in non incarnate content was a mistake, how it is dealt with is the question.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Sirius.Games said:

My understanding is AoE is usually dual types ranged/AoE melee/AoE so capping to ranged and melee caps you to all three.

 

Nope. SR has 6 powers that buff defense. 3 toggles and 3 passives. 1 each for melee, 1 each for range and 1 each for aoe.

 

Many attacks in this game are dual typed with both a Positional Value and a Typed Value. https://cod.uberguy.net./
That link has all the info you need but if you drill down to a specific power you'll find Attack Type.
https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=blaster_ranged.archery.aimed_shot&at=blaster

That's Archery Aimed Shot. Under Attack Type it shows Ranged, Lethal.

 

If that is used against someone with Ranged or Lethal Defense, the higher of the two values is used.

Psychic Wail, on the other hand, is Area, Psionic. Same story, if I have both AoE and Psi Defense, the higher value will be used.
https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=blaster_ranged.psychic_blast.psychic_wail&at=blaster

 

For the most part, this is how it works although some attacks are untyped vs position and some are just flat out autohit.

 

What you may be thinking of are some Set IO Bonuses like the bonuses in Reactive Armor that buff both a Positional Value and a Typed Value.

 

But to the statement, NO, capping to Melee or Ranged will NOT cap you to AoE. It has to be capped on its own.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

34 minutes ago, Sirius.Games said:

Defensive sets would only be harmed with the to hit change not the first two and sets that build for type would have to be changed to accommodate. This would make defensive sets more similar but with IOs are they all that different when your capped to all types vs all positions?

 

No, it would be a total rework on several of the sets. Bio, Nrg, Ice, Stone, and even Willpower all have powers that grant only typed defense.

 

34 minutes ago, Sirius.Games said:

The new harder difficulty is a bandaid when people have to actively make the game more challenging the default option always wins. IOs and incarnates aren't going away and the game would benefit from a rebalance around them instead of trying to make everything homogeneous it forces diversity.

 

Incarnate abilities available in non incarnate content was a mistake, how it is dealt with is the question.

 

I don't necessarily disagree but attempting to rework how defense functions in this game is absolutely the wrong way to deal with those issues.

 

Nerfing set bonuses, powers like scorpion shield, rune of protection, unleash potential, etc, blocking incarnate powers in all non-incarnate content, purging level shifts, these are all options and none of them, including a complete defense rework across the game, are going to happen.

Yes, the game is too easy. And it's just going to get easier.

 

But at least now there is content that I can't solo.... until I start abusing all the things I've chosen not to abuse so far, of course.

 

And we ALL have the ability to remove a bunch of these problems ourselves. Nothing is stopping anyone from running SO only builds.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Bill Z Bubba]

Fun fact: Pylons use an AoE attack but it's typed Range. I've never understood why.

 

Made double weird because it's listed as Area Lethal under Attack Type but at the top of the page it shows Ranged Lethal +KB.

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=rikti.war_zone_pylon.swarm_missile&at=boss_archvillain

 

There's probably a LOT more weirdness like this than we'd care to know.

[KaizenSoze]

Ditto to what Bill said.

 

If you are looking for a challenge then do an Aeon SF on relentless. Or AE 801 missions.

 

I don't want everything to be difficult only what I choose mostly. The beauty of the game is that you can mostly pick your own difficultly.

 

A lot of folks choose the easy path, not judging, but you can make the game very difficult is you want.

[arcane]

19 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

I don't want everything to be difficult only what I choose mostly. The beauty of the game is that you can mostly pick your own difficultly.

I think it’s probably too late for a revamp the OP wants. That being said, I would like to pick at something.

 

The current problem with difficulty in this game is that, yes, you can choose your difficulty, but, as long as you avoid the absolute hardest content and enemy types, *+4x8* is actually considered part of the easy end of the spectrum, *even when solo*. If you understand what that 4 means and what that 8 means, that should be a ludicrous statement. And yet it’s not if you know how god damn easy CoX is. That’s slightly messed up.

Edited January 19, 2022 by arcane

[Brutal Justice]

Defense hard caps in line with the resistance hard caps is the answer you seek.  

Edited January 19, 2022 by Brutal Justice

[Six-Six]

Or run a toon that has no inherent def/res.

Then do perma death.

[Doomguide2005]

19 minutes ago, Six-Six said:

Or run a toon that has no inherent def/res.

Then do perma death.

     I've done the first often (or at least no attempt was made to gain serious defense), but no Hover or Combat Jumping or ... unless you're speaking of only from Primary and Secondary sets. 

 

Edit:  Cause you can pry CJ+Hurdle from my Cold dead hands 🤪

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Doomguide2005

[Bill Z Bubba]

54 minutes ago, arcane said:

The current problem with difficulty in this game is that, yes, you can choose your difficulty, but, as long as you avoid the absolute hardest content and enemy types, *+4x8* is actually considered part of the easy end of the spectrum, *even when solo*. If you understand what that 4 means and what that 8 means, that should be a ludicrous statement. And yet it’s not if you know how god damn easy CoX is. That’s slightly messed up.

 

Reminds me that I was on a break from CoH when I got a message stating "brutes got claws. Also, new difficulty settings."

I came back so that I could run +4/x8 with a claws brute.

 

Sooo, yea, long before incarnate stuff, the game was already too easy thanks to inventions.

[arcane]

19 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Reminds me that I was on a break from CoH when I got a message stating "brutes got claws. Also, new difficulty settings."

I came back so that I could run +4/x8 with a claws brute.

 

Sooo, yea, long before incarnate stuff, the game was already too easy thanks to inventions.

And +4x8 council only exist to give drunk people and small children a reason to press buttons without getting into any danger

[Six-Six]

Is coo, @Doomguide2005, you can keep CJ. Everyone loves CJ. Plus it's only what, 2% or less def???

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, arcane said:

And +4x8 council only exist to give drunk people and small children a reason to press buttons without getting into any danger

 

Whatchu got against drunk people?

 

Council suck against low level regen, by the by. Slows and regen do not mix.

 

I still enjoy hearing carnies scream.

 

Edit: Total side note... soloing DASF on Vicious. It's more a tedious pain in the ass than anything else since I'm having to pull and play like a squishie, but interesting anyway for a try.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Aurora_Girl]

Also, re: "sweeping defense changes."

 

It was already done. It was...not well-received. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

15 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:

Also, re: "sweeping defense changes."

 

It was already done. It was...not well-received. 

 

And it would take another ED/GDN level nerf to get things back under control. Thus...

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

Oh geez. Where do I start?

 

4 hours ago, Sirius.Games said:

The game is easy, let's be honest. You don't need IOs or incarnates for a number of sets. There is a time intensive fix.

This seems like a good place to start. Yes, the game can be very easy. A lot of us don't play optimized characters or teams. For example, just the other night me and two friends were running around doing tip missions with 3 Blasters. All under level 50, all with just SOs.

 

Not every character is a Billion Inf Vet level 1000 super optimized god. If that's you're character then congratulations! You made Superman in a superhero MMO. Superman is really tough. Pretty much no one and nothing is a challenge for him. Go roll a new character and play Robin.

 

4 hours ago, Sirius.Games said:

1. Remove types for defenses

This won't have the effect that you think it will have. If anything it'll make softcapping a blaster much easier. Why? Because then all of the IO set bonuses will also have to be changed from typed to positional. This means it'll be just that much easier to find enough sets to softcap a squishie's defense. So the squishie will have slots left over to devote to other things, like more ToHit and more Damage.

 

So it'll just make the problem worse.

 

4 hours ago, Sirius.Games said:

2. Remove dual type defenses

There are 3 positional defenses: Melee, Ranged and AoE. Positional attacks and defenses are usually paired with a typed defense. So Council bullets are Ranged & Lethal. Parry gives you defense to Melee & Lethal. Fireball is Ranged & AoE.

 

Frankly it makes it difficult to take your suggestion seriously when you demonstrate that you clearly don't have a full understanding of the subject.

 

4 hours ago, Sirius.Games said:

3. Increase the accuracy floor or the guaranteed hit roll increase

Ok, but remember that this will apply to players too. So I'll be able to reliably hit that Paragon Protector that's Mogged or that Fake Nemesis that's fired off Personal Force Field. So yeah, do it. It'll help me to steam roll enemies even faster.

 

4 hours ago, Sirius.Games said:

This change would increase the utility of ATs such as Dom's/controllers, bring high damage ATs back down, buff support rolls in general but FF and +def sets more.

No it won't. Upping the Accuracy floor will make Force Field Defenders less desired and increase calls for healers, because defense buffs just won't be as helpful.

 

Your suggestions will have the opposite effect that you want. If you really want to make the game less easy then play missions with the devs' new difficulty levels or play the 801 series in the AE. Now stop trying to nerf my characters, and get off my lawn!  🤬

[Rudra]

I must be doing something seriously wrong. Only my brutes can go +4/x8. And only against groups that focus on doing damage my brute excels at taking. I'm rather fond of the game's current difficulty level, and my mind was blown when the new difficulty levels were added because people wanted a more difficult game. So on multiple grounds I oppose this post's proposal. Firstly, I already struggle with several enemy factions and don't want to find fighting them impossible. "AAAHHHH! SAPPERS!!!! My defensive toggles!!!!!" (Also, there are already too many auto-hit powers enemies get access to in my opinion.) Secondly, making some power sets less appealing is the absolute wrong way to do things. Seriously? What do you have against mace? I don't get how you think your proposed changes would make dominators/controllers more desirable, reduce high damage ATs damage output, or increase the amount of thought people put into their power choices either. Controllers/dominators already tend to be preferred for their ability to bolster the team and lock down AVs/Monsters. High damage ATs are fine, it is the lack of competitiveness some of their power sets have against each other that needs help. (Check out Kinetic Melee with its insanely long animation times and surprisingly low damage some time.) And aside from players who focus on the FotM powers/ATs or follow other's min/max guides to <insert type> greatness, there is a great deal of thought required in finding power sets  and their associated enhancements that complement your play style and keep you from face-planting. (You know, without going with what other players have already established as Penultimate <insert AT> Build of Greatness!!!!!!!! references.)

Edited January 19, 2022 by Rudra
Edited for grammer/spelling.

[Rudra]

So I guess I'm saying, please don't force me to play according to your standards. Thanks.

[Luminara]

At the risk of sounding repetitive, or giving the impression of boasting, I'll point out once again that I was soloing GMs and tanking AVs on a defender with no Defense, no Resistance, no status protection, only SOs and only pool melee attacks, long, long before IOs or Incarnates existed.  That I was farming at +2/x6 with a Trick Arrow defender when Trick Arrow was considered the worst set in the game, so bad that most people thought it couldn't solo at -1/x1.  This is how the game was intended to be.  And completely gutting everything perceived to be responsible for that ease won't change a damn thing.  The game was "too easy" before IOs, before Incarnates, after ED and GDN.

 

Being able to soft-cap Defense, or using IO sets, or having Incarnate abilities, it's all irrelevant because all these things have accomplished is making the ease of the game more accessible to a wider section of the population.  Easy was always the intent, and taking away all of the things that allow some of you to just now realize that the game is easy, all that accomplishes is shifting the meta slightly.  It's still going to be easy.

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, Luminara said:

At the risk of sounding repetitive, or giving the impression of boasting, I'll point out once again that I was soloing GMs and tanking AVs on a defender with no Defense, no Resistance, no status protection, only SOs and only pool melee attacks, long, long before IOs or Incarnates existed.  That I was farming at +2/x6 with a Trick Arrow defender when Trick Arrow was considered the worst set in the game, so bad that most people thought it couldn't solo at -1/x1.  This is how the game was intended to be.  And completely gutting everything perceived to be responsible for that ease won't change a damn thing.  The game was "too easy" before IOs, before Incarnates, after ED and GDN.

 

Being able to soft-cap Defense, or using IO sets, or having Incarnate abilities, it's all irrelevant because all these things have accomplished is making the ease of the game more accessible to a wider section of the population.  Easy was always the intent, and taking away all of the things that allow some of you to just now realize that the game is easy, all that accomplishes is shifting the meta slightly.  It's still going to be easy.

You  know, I've soloed GMs before all that too. Of course, they were all grey because I was significantly higher level than them. Then they made GMs levelless so they were effectively always your level plus their GM shifts and purple. Ah, the good ole days. In the end, I have to say, congrats to you for doing what others said could not be done. Depending on power choices and enhancement choices, a character can excel (or fail) in ways others did not think was possible. I still think the proposed changes in this topic are beyond bad. I want to play my characters with my power choices and my enhancement choices in my play style without having look up the "right" way to make the character. If I screw up and the character can't do anything? Okay. Delete character and start over. If I don't make often silly mistakes with the character and it can solo the game's regular content? Great! I'm viable. If I stumble on SUPER BUILD OF ULTIMATE DOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!, I'm gonna go fight the things my other characters can't and be happy I figured out the super secret method I've heard rumors of. So again, please don't force me to make characters according to others' expectations. I want to have fun.

[lemming]

2 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Oh geez. Where do I start?

 

This seems like a good place to start. Yes, the game can be very easy. A lot of us don't play optimized characters or teams. For example, just the other night me and two friends were running around doing tip missions with 3 Blasters. All under level 50, all with just SOs.

 

Now stop trying to nerf my characters, and get off my lawn!  🤬

Yep.  I have chars that are tuned to eat most content, but I have a bunch that have issues with +0/+0.

 

The game CAN be very easy once you invest inf & time in a character, but let the casual players do their thing.

[Frozen Burn]

@Sirius.Games... No, just no.  It appears you have very little experience or history with this game.  Tell us of your experience and what toon(s) you're playing.  Did you power level to 50? Or did you play all content up through the levels?  Did you start Hero-side where lower level mobs are easier compared to villain-side and in praetoria?  

 

It's not that the game is easy... the game CAN be easy, if you choose it... but it can be hard too.  Some ATs and/or powerset combos cannot solo and if they can, not all can even do so at +4x8.  So if you find the game too easy... try rolling a different character that might challenge you?  (Like @PeregrineFalcon suggested.)

 

First of all, the game is intended to be a progression from newbie hero/villain/praetorian to being an incarnate (where we're supposed to be "gods").  The lore of the game has Statesman, Lord Recluse, and Tyrant (and others) as incarnate gods that can walk through anything.... and we players are on that journey to become just like them.  So the game itself leans towards making it easier for us to do existing content as we become incarnates. 

 

And remember, there was supposed to be even more incarnate powers coming our way before the game was taken away from us.  Run the first mission of Mender Ramiel's arc in Ouro where the player is introduced to being an incarnate -- all regen, recovery, defenses, resistances, to-hit, damage and etc are all capped -- it shows us what we were supposed be like with the incarnate system.

 

However, the other side of that coin was that we were also supposed to fight the Battalion in the "The Coming Storm" -- this is story content that was never realized in the game due to the shut down.  But that content would have been challenging even for our god-like incarnate status.  (...because why make a game that is only easy.)  

 

With the Global Defense Nerf (GDN) we had (which was back during Live), the Devs realized the chaos and uproar it created.  They eventually implemented the Invention Origin enhancement system, set bonuses, and crafting and they admitted this was a way for us to recover some of what we lost with the GDN.  So IOs are as intended and are also not part of the problem.

 

I can see why you might think it's easy.  And i can understand the reasoning behind your request.  But as others stated above and all the reasons given, it will not work.  

 

The current Dev team has stated numerous times that they do not want to be "museum-keepers" and only keep the game as is.  They DO have plans to add more and significant content.  The new challenge system with the Aeon SF is the tip of the iceberg.  There will be more content coming our way that will challenge our incarnate god-like toons.  

 

The problem you are facing (and many others too), is that we do not yet have the end-game content we were promised before the game went down.  It's not the Devs fault... it's NCSoft's fault for shutting us down and stopping the Devs from realizing their dream and us being able to play that content (which I am sure would have been awesome).  It's not that the game is easy, or that IOs ruin anything... it's that we (players and devs) are not done on our journey in the CoX-Universe, and after a 7-year hiatus and slow legal diplomacy, it's taking time to get traction to get things up and going again.  But it's coming....

 

...all I can say is... be patient -- your challenges will come.  And in the meantime, roll a different toon and find other ways to challenge yourself with the existing content -- those challenges do exist in-game currently.

[arcane]

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

I must be doing something seriously wrong. Only my brutes can go +4/x8. And only against groups that focus on doing damage my brute excels at taking.

We’ve all been on that point in the learning curve before. Give it time you’ll get better.