Sweeping defense changes

[Haijinx]

5 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Tony Bath's miniature war game rule set, published in '56, preceded Chainmail.  Gygax took that, polished it up to create Chainmail, and later added wizards and lizards and sold it as D&D.

 

Polyhedral dice date back to the 2nd century BC.  Egyptians were rolling d20s ~2400 years ago.

 

The point of the link was to show that most of the concepts for the game came from the Hero System, not from D&D.  Obviously, the roll system couldn't have been adapted from the Hero System, since it's impossible to achieve a 5/100 when using six-sided dice (unless you roll 10/100/1000/10,000 etc. six-sided dice and divide the result by 6).  The archived information about the game's alpha stages clearly link to Champions, and the Hero System is the foundation of Champions.  We use a different rolling system simply because it was easy to implement a fractional 0.01-100.00 roll.  That roll system doesn't make this a D&D-inspired or -derived game.  It isn't.

 

I am not sure I follow.  In the link you posted Hero system is called a decendant system from Champions, not the foundation.  Champions being quite a bit older.  

 

In this case I am refering to the Chance to Hit concept, as applied in COX is directly like it is in D&D.   They could have, if they chose easily modeled D6 with a computer if they had wanted though.   

 

But yes, the entire game is not D&D derived, just the to hit stuff.   But that is a huge part of a game as combat focused as COX.  And yes that system was also a derivative system.  

 

COX as implimented is vastly different than Champions though, simplified or otherwise.  Of course.  so is Champions Online.  

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

 

The point being that a lot of people, including myself most of the time, and all of my friends, play this game casually and don't use the IO system at all. People have told me that it's more effort than they want to put into it and they'd rather just play on +1 x4 and have fun.

 

And yet, you will fight tooth and nail to block any possible reduction in the performance of IOs.  I find that interesting.  

[Haijinx]

8 hours ago, Brutal Justice said:

It’s nice to see I can still get a bunch of thumbs downs from people who still think a defensive scrapper at 45% defense is in any way balanced with a resistance scrapper at 75% resistance.  

 

You are of course correct in this. 

 

BUT ... since its easier to build for defense, you could argue than a Resistance build can easily be both 75% resistance AND 30+% Defense.  

 

Its the lack of DDR that is the real build challenge.   And its the one that leads to these mass entrenched flame wars in support of the status quo I think.   Since if you changed the 5% chance to get hit floor to a 15% chance to get hit floor All these IO defence builds will crumple like wet tinfoil against any DEF debuffs.  As well as crushing most Defense sets.   Leaving only SR and Shield Defense standing probably.     

[arcane]

I don’t really want to continue this little tussle, but I’m very much sick of the seemingly willful representation on particular topics. Half of my posts on this forum are talking about unconventional build choices I like/make, and the other half are defending me from implications that maybe I’d find things challenging if I started liking/making some unconventional choices once in awhile. You can call it ignorance or dishonesty, but it’s definitely one of the two.

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Leaving only SR and Shield Defense standing probably.   

 

Standing, maybe, but bloodied and broken while their resistance based counterparts thrive. Regardless, it's still a horrible idea. Just like this one.

 

Edit: Even worse since Brutes get Tank resistance caps and therefore should also get the 45% defense cap just like tanks. So it's just scrappers and stalkers getting screwed.

 

Again, the base tohit system ain't the issue. Getting 6% defense to everything from 2 IOs? Yea, that's frelling stupid.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Standing, maybe, but bloodied and broken while their resistance based counterparts thrive. Regardless, it's still a horrible idea. Just like this one.

 

Definitely agree, it would be a mess. 

 

You'd have to give the defense sets more resistance.  A number of MMOs have done this for defense based mitigation though.  Increasing chance to get hit and adding resistance.  Which is interesting. 

 

I think a lot of games find that avoidance mitigation leading to avoiding debuffs becomes more powerful than they had anticipated.  

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I think a lot of games find that avoidance mitigation leading to avoiding debuffs becomes more powerful than they had anticipated.  

 

Happened here with ED and the GDN and Super Reflexes and was exactly why the scaling resists were added. I did NOT enjoy the time between those events when I had to turn my main into a weak ass blaster.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Happened here with ED and the GDN and Super Reflexes and was exactly why the scaling resists were added. I did NOT enjoy the time between those events when I had to turn my main into a weak ass blaster.

 

Thus I think IOs are basically untouchable.  And any suggestion to overhaul Defense like the OP is DOA. 

 

So .. we cant touch Incarnates.  We cant touch IOs.  We cant change the game system.  We can't add any power creep to the NPCs in general.  

 

They have/will add some special ultra chocolate modes/content.  But with Tankers the way they are now, you should be able to leverage that to still steamroll stuff.  4 Tankers and 4 Support types probably could roflstomp almost anything they come up with.   Thinking of the Tankgods thead.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Haijinx said:

 

Thus I think IOs are basically untouchable.  And any suggestion to overhaul Defense like the OP is DOA. 

 

So .. we cant touch Incarnates.  We cant touch IOs.  We cant change the game system.  We can't add any power creep to the NPCs in general.  

 

They have/will add some special ultra chocolate modes/content.  But with Tankers the way they are now, you should be able to leverage that to still steamroll stuff.  4 Tankers and 4 Support types probably could roflstomp almost anything they come up with.   Thinking of the Tankgods thead.

Which is by design and how it is supposed to be. It’s a superhero game. The upper limits are absolutely supposed to feel godly.

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Which is by design and how it is supposed to be. It’s a superhero game. The upper limits are absolutely supposed to feel godly.

 

I don't think its by Design per se.  But, It is the end result.  

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

We cant touch IOs.

 

Won't. Could and should, yes, but you're correct, many would immediately move to other CoH hosts so it makes little sense to do so.

[Wavicle]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

I don't think its by Design per se.  But, It is the end result.  

 

 

It is the design of the Invention and Incarnate systems, especially the Incarnate system. The story makes that pretty clear.

 

That first mission of the Mender Ramiel arc, View Your Future Memory, is a demonstration of the ultimate level of power the devs intended the Incarnate system to bring us (or at least approach).

Edited January 22, 2022 by Wavicle

[arcane]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Won't. Could and should, yes, but you're correct, many would immediately move to other CoH hosts so it makes little sense to do so.

You could be quoting “We cant balance the game.” and I can’t see why anything here would change really. It’s pretty much impossible.

 

Be abundantly careful about giving people toys. They will scream armageddon if you try to take one back.

 

Power creep is like heroin.

Edited January 22, 2022 by arcane

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

That first mission of the Mender Ramiel arc, View Your Future Memory, is a demonstration of the ultimate level of power the devs intended the Incarnate system to bring us (or at least approach).

 

I think the Devs had come to the conclusion that we were full on Munchkin Power Creep way before any of us realized it.  They are game designers after all.  They do this stuff full time. 

 

But I do have to laugh at the idea that the Mender Ramiel arc was the final power level Players were supposed to have.  I don't think that was the intent.   

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

You could be quoting “We cant balance the game.” and I can’t see why anything here would change really. It’s pretty much impossible.

 

Nah, it's just math. It absolutely could be returned to a semblance of balance with enough work. But as I mentioned in other threads, it would tick off so many people that we'd all be better off hosting our own instances and doing it ourselves for the literal handful of people that might agree with our balancing.

 

And as the saying goes, ain't nobody got time for that.

[RobotLove]

7 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

But I do have to laugh at the idea that the Mender Ramiel arc was the final power level Players were supposed to have.  I don't think that was the intent.

 

It wasn't.

 

They don't con gray yet.

[macskull]

8 minutes ago, arcane said:

You could be quoting “We cant balance the game.” and I can’t see why anything here would change really. It’s pretty much impossible.

 

Be abundantly careful about giving people toys. They will scream armageddon if you try to take one back.

 

Power creep is like heroin.

Been saying for a long time now: the right answer here is to offer optional higher-difficulty content (and rewards commensurate with the degree of difficulty). The ASF difficulty levels are a huge step in the right direction. The baseline game being pretty damn easy is one of its main selling points, IMO.

[Brutal Justice]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

Your defense overhaul was a bad idea when you first suggested it, and it's a bad idea now.

 

It's also worth pointing out any character at its defense cap with no resistance has the potential to get insta-deleted by a few lucky hits, which will never happen to a character at its resistance cap.

Except I provided all the math to support the existing imbalance and the resulting balance.  

 

A chance for insta death is always better than the guaranteed death resist based scrappers face.  Like skydiving.  The defense scrapper has a parachute.  The resist scrapper doesn’t.  

[Brutal Justice]

Double post

Edited January 22, 2022 by Brutal Justice
Double post

[Ignatz the Insane]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Where did I say I have all meta builds with soft capped defense in any of those posts? Interesting to me that Peregrine Falcon has more ranged defense on his one blaster than I have in ranged or S/L defense on any of my ~15 blasters, but I guess you guys know me better than I do, right?

You didn't.  And I didn't claim you did.  However,

On 1/19/2022 at 7:08 AM, arcane said:

The current problem with difficulty in this game is that, yes, you can choose your difficulty, but, as long as you avoid the absolute hardest content and enemy types, *+4x8* is actually considered part of the easy end of the spectrum, *even when solo*. If you understand what that 4 means and what that 8 means, that should be a ludicrous statement. And yet it’s not if you know how god damn easy CoX is. That’s slightly messed up.

In what world is this remotely true without IOs and/or Incarnates?  In other words, meta builds (IMHO).  Yes, there are a handful of builds where the above might be true with just SOs or generic IOs.  Yet your one example of a weak solo build included 23 procs and Incarnates.  I don't know about you, but I consider that pretty meta.  

 

Look, I know you're kinda getting attacked on all sides, and that sucks.  I don't mean you ill-will.  I'm not angry or bitter.  But you seem uncommonly stubborn when folks give evidence that they don't, and likely won't, make builds I consider meta.  And I don't think they're necessarily the minority of the player base.  I think the above quote is a gross misrepresentation of the playerbase at large, and gives the impression, to me, that you likely make that statement with the assumption that everyone is using IOs and/or Incarnates.  I could be wrong though.  

[Brutal Justice]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

You are of course correct in this. 

 

BUT ... since its easier to build for defense, you could argue than a Resistance build can easily be both 75% resistance AND 30+% Defense. 

You are correct but I did also provide the math for mixed mitigation as well as including the DDR numbers.  Defense sets are also no longer just defense anymore ever since super reflexes had its scaling resists added.  

 

It showed the sets to be to be pretty closely balanced with defense still leading at lower levels and resists taking over at higher levels.  Using 50ddr.  

[Hyperstrike]

I am so against this I have to suggest a new type of Defense.

/jrangered Defense...

[Brutal Justice]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Standing, maybe, but bloodied and broken while their resistance based counterparts thrive. Regardless, it's still a horrible idea. Just like this one.

 

Edit: Even worse since Brutes get Tank resistance caps and therefore should also get the 45% defense cap just like tanks. So it's just scrappers and stalkers getting screwed.

 

Again, the base tohit system ain't the issue. Getting 6% defense to everything from 2 IOs? Yea, that's frelling stupid.

I provided the math to show you that was not the case.  I also provided the math to show you the current imbalance between the two mitigations.  

 

It wouldn't just be stalkers and scrappers.  Sentinels have the same  issues.  It would affect all archetypes outside of tanks and brutes in an attempt to balance the game.  

 

My lvl 50 rad/fire sentinel is capped 75% resists and gets squished like it’s nothing.  It took quite a bit of investment to get him capped to s/l.  Much more investment than a defensive one would have required to get to 45% defense, and the soft capped one will run circles around my fire armor.  

[arcane]

16 minutes ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

You didn't.  And I didn't claim you did.  However,

In what world is this remotely true without IOs and/or Incarnates?  In other words, meta builds (IMHO).  Yes, there are a handful of builds where the above might be true with just SOs or generic IOs.  Yet your one example of a weak solo build included 23 procs and Incarnates.  I don't know about you, but I consider that pretty meta.  

 

Look, I know you're kinda getting attacked on all sides, and that sucks.  I don't mean you ill-will.  I'm not angry or bitter.  But you seem uncommonly stubborn when folks give evidence that they don't, and likely won't, make builds I consider meta.  And I don't think they're necessarily the minority of the player base.  I think the above quote is a gross misrepresentation of the playerbase at large, and gives the impression, to me, that you likely make that statement with the assumption that everyone is using IOs and/or Incarnates.  I could be wrong though.  

Just noting that meta builds were being painted as (1) sticking to SS/SJ/Leadership/Fighting/Flight/Concealment fairly religiously (2) building for defense set bonuses and (3) probably disregarding weak suboptimal powersets.

 

None of those apply to me. I highly value variety in my pool picks, rarely pick up defense bonuses at all, and play everything indiscriminately from Fire Blast to Kinetic Melee, Force Field, etc.

 

IO’s and Incarnates do apply to me, yes.

 

Otherwise, thank you.

Edited January 22, 2022 by arcane

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

I provided the math to show you that was not the case.  I also provided the math to show you the current imbalance between the two mitigations.  

 

It wouldn't just be stalkers and scrappers.  Sentinels have the same  issues.  It would affect all archetypes outside of tanks and brutes in an attempt to balance the game.  

 

My lvl 50 rad/fire sentinel is capped 75% resists and gets squished like it’s nothing.  It took quite a bit of investment to get him capped to s/l.  Much more investment than a defensive one would have required to get to 45% defense, and the soft capped one will run circles around my fire armor.  

 

You showed some math. I, and many others, determined your math was was incomplete, biased and wrong.