What do you guys think of Trick Arrow?

[SirJeal]

I've heard a lot of people complain about it in game. I've also heard that it was scheduled for a revamp that never came to be, due to the game shutting down. (Don't know if that's true or not though.)

 

Regardless, I myself have some problems with it. Can't say much about Blasters that use it. (I do think that I had a Blaster on live that had Archery/TA, but only got somewhere in the 20's I think?) However, Trick Arrow as a Mastermind secondary just doesn't... feel good? Almost all the other secondary sets give some sort of defense, resistance, heals, or lots of -to hit to enemies. Trick Arrow does have some CC, and a -to hit attack, but none of it feels that great to use... and if you happen to pair it with melee pets, they will tend to crumple and die before you can do much else. Even with ranged pets it can feel pretty lackluster.

 

So anyway, long story short. Personally I hope that they take a look at Trick Arrow and possibly give it some buffs or something, since they can't really "revamp" the set like they were going to do so on live.

[Pixie_Knight]

Blasters were slated to get a version of Trick Arrow, but that never got finished before the server shutdown. As for the power set it's self, it's rather powerful. While it lacks any defensive buffs or healing ability, the debuffs more then make up for that. Due to a quirk of how the debuffs were coded, most of them ignore the 16 target cap. Poison Gas Arrow is a flat -35% damage debuff in the hands of a defender, I believe. Glue Arrow is a massive slow and -recharge debuff. And with good slotting both of them can be fired off just as the previous effect ends. Acid Arrow is a nice -def/-res debuff, although it's radius is smaller then you might like. There's a single target immobilize and single target hold. Flash Arrow is a nice to-hit debuff as well as debuffing enemy perception. Combine it with a partial stealth and you may as well be completely invisible. The sonic arrow is a really nice aoe -resistance debuff which again can affect more then 16 targets. And then there's Oil Slick.

 

Oil Slick is... Well, it's incredibly powerful all on it's own. It's a slow that also constantly tries (and often succeeds) to apply knockdown. This alone would make it useful. But there's another aspect that pushes Oil Slick into top tier levels. It spawns an invisible target in the middle of the oil slick named (unimaginatively) Oil Slick. If this target gets hit by a fire attack the oil slick will burst into flames, doing some crazy high damage to every enemy caught within it. And remember, it for whatever reason ignores the 16 target cap. Energy attacks I think have a 75% chance to ignite the oil slick.

 

People complain about it, and think the set is 'useless' mostly because the devs overbalanced it when bringing it to Live servers. On the test server there were teams of all TA/A defenders running around stacking the debuffs and generally trivializing everything. Even when solo you could self stack several of the key debuffs to the point that enemies were effectively statues who couldn't deal damage. And rather then flag the problem abilities (glue arrow and poison gas arrow) to not stack with other instances of that power, the devs at Cryptic decided to raise the recharge rates to 3 minutes while leaving the duration for the debuffs at 30 seconds. This meant that while Trick Arrow was still very effective, it could only be effective every few fights. With heavy slotting for recharge reduction you could get that down to a 30 second delay between the debuff wearing off and being able to recast it.

 

The set was later re-balanced so that with 3 recharge redux enhancements (SO level of course) you could have Glue Arrow and Poison Gas Arrow finish recharging just as the debuff wore off. Maybe with a slight overlap.

 

The problem is... After it initially got nerfed into the ground pre-launch few people were willing to give the set a second look. So many still think it's 'useless'. But I was having great luck with Trick Arrow even before the set had it's obscene recharge times lowered.

[SirJeal]

Blasters were slated to get a version of Trick Arrow, but that never got finished before the server shutdown. As for the power set it's self, it's rather powerful. While it lacks any defensive buffs or healing ability, the debuffs more then make up for that. Due to a quirk of how the debuffs were coded, most of them ignore the 16 target cap. Poison Gas Arrow is a flat -35% damage debuff in the hands of a defender, I believe. Glue Arrow is a massive slow and -recharge debuff. And with good slotting both of them can be fired off just as the previous effect ends. Acid Arrow is a nice -def/-res debuff, although it's radius is smaller then you might like. There's a single target immobilize and single target hold. Flash Arrow is a nice to-hit debuff as well as debuffing enemy perception. Combine it with a partial stealth and you may as well be completely invisible. The sonic arrow is a really nice aoe -resistance debuff which again can affect more then 16 targets. And then there's Oil Slick.

 

Oil Slick is... Well, it's incredibly powerful all on it's own. It's a slow that also constantly tries (and often succeeds) to apply knockdown. This alone would make it useful. But there's another aspect that pushes Oil Slick into top tier levels. It spawns an invisible target in the middle of the oil slick named (unimaginatively) Oil Slick. If this target gets hit by a fire attack the oil slick will burst into flames, doing some crazy high damage to every enemy caught within it. And remember, it for whatever reason ignores the 16 target cap. Energy attacks I think have a 75% chance to ignite the oil slick.

 

People complain about it, and think the set is 'useless' mostly because the devs overbalanced it when bringing it to Live servers. On the test server there were teams of all TA/A defenders running around stacking the debuffs and generally trivializing everything. Even when solo you could self stack several of the key debuffs to the point that enemies were effectively statues who couldn't deal damage. And rather then flag the problem abilities (glue arrow and poison gas arrow) to not stack with other instances of that power, the devs at Cryptic decided to raise the recharge rates to 3 minutes while leaving the duration for the debuffs at 30 seconds. This meant that while Trick Arrow was still very effective, it could only be effective every few fights. With heavy slotting for recharge reduction you could get that down to a 30 second delay between the debuff wearing off and being able to recast it.

 

The set was later re-balanced so that with 3 recharge redux enhancements (SO level of course) you could have Glue Arrow and Poison Gas Arrow finish recharging just as the debuff wore off. Maybe with a slight overlap.

 

The problem is... After it initially got nerfed into the ground pre-launch few people were willing to give the set a second look. So many still think it's 'useless'. But I was having great luck with Trick Arrow even before the set had it's obscene recharge times lowered.

 

Alright, so you did talk a lot about Defender using it. Any experience with it while playing say... a Ninja/TA MM? Even with defensive/healing sets, I know Ninja... die quite quickly. How well do you think it'd do as a solo MM secondary, especially when compared with other secondary sets? At least it sounds like Oil Slick could combo with certain pets easily.

[Guest ProvRI]

Trick Arrow is an absolutely wonderful set for Defenders especially. It’s got an incredibly comprehensive Debuff toolkit that covers the gamut, plus Oil Slick, Ice Arrow, and  EMP Arrow. And once you hit set IOs and Incarnate slots, you can further increase overall utility significantly.

 

But it does seem to work best in groups, behind a wall of meat shields. Which granted is where Defenders in general tend to do best, but TA probably isn’t the most solo friendly primary out there. With the exception of Flash Arrow, everything grabs aggro which is not a great corner to be backed into while you’re still stacking debuffs.

 

And for many, that’s the bar they seem to use. “How well can I solo with this?”. Which is totally fine, but I’m not sure it’s the best metric for every power set (or AT).

 

If you’d like a dedicated support set for a dedicated support role though, highly recommended.

[Pixie_Knight]

Blasters were slated to get a version of Trick Arrow, but that never got finished before the server shutdown. As for the power set it's self, it's rather powerful. While it lacks any defensive buffs or healing ability, the debuffs more then make up for that. Due to a quirk of how the debuffs were coded, most of them ignore the 16 target cap. Poison Gas Arrow is a flat -35% damage debuff in the hands of a defender, I believe. Glue Arrow is a massive slow and -recharge debuff. And with good slotting both of them can be fired off just as the previous effect ends. Acid Arrow is a nice -def/-res debuff, although it's radius is smaller then you might like. There's a single target immobilize and single target hold. Flash Arrow is a nice to-hit debuff as well as debuffing enemy perception. Combine it with a partial stealth and you may as well be completely invisible. The sonic arrow is a really nice aoe -resistance debuff which again can affect more then 16 targets. And then there's Oil Slick.

 

Oil Slick is... Well, it's incredibly powerful all on it's own. It's a slow that also constantly tries (and often succeeds) to apply knockdown. This alone would make it useful. But there's another aspect that pushes Oil Slick into top tier levels. It spawns an invisible target in the middle of the oil slick named (unimaginatively) Oil Slick. If this target gets hit by a fire attack the oil slick will burst into flames, doing some crazy high damage to every enemy caught within it. And remember, it for whatever reason ignores the 16 target cap. Energy attacks I think have a 75% chance to ignite the oil slick.

 

People complain about it, and think the set is 'useless' mostly because the devs overbalanced it when bringing it to Live servers. On the test server there were teams of all TA/A defenders running around stacking the debuffs and generally trivializing everything. Even when solo you could self stack several of the key debuffs to the point that enemies were effectively statues who couldn't deal damage. And rather then flag the problem abilities (glue arrow and poison gas arrow) to not stack with other instances of that power, the devs at Cryptic decided to raise the recharge rates to 3 minutes while leaving the duration for the debuffs at 30 seconds. This meant that while Trick Arrow was still very effective, it could only be effective every few fights. With heavy slotting for recharge reduction you could get that down to a 30 second delay between the debuff wearing off and being able to recast it.

 

The set was later re-balanced so that with 3 recharge redux enhancements (SO level of course) you could have Glue Arrow and Poison Gas Arrow finish recharging just as the debuff wore off. Maybe with a slight overlap.

 

The problem is... After it initially got nerfed into the ground pre-launch few people were willing to give the set a second look. So many still think it's 'useless'. But I was having great luck with Trick Arrow even before the set had it's obscene recharge times lowered.

 

Alright, so you did talk a lot about Defender using it. Any experience with it while playing say... a Ninja/TA MM? Even with defensive/healing sets, I know Ninja... die quite quickly. How well do you think it'd do as a solo MM secondary, especially when compared with other secondary sets? At least it sounds like Oil Slick could combo with certain pets easily.

 

I've ran both a Ninja/Trick Arrow mastermind and a Thug/Trick Arrow mastermind to 50 in the past. Elite Bosses could be rough, but overall it was a pretty effective secondary for masterminds. I've also used Trick Arrow with a Nature controller to very good effect.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

I think that Trick Arrow is a decent somewhat control heavy set that suffers from one major drawback: it sucks at alpha strike mitigation. Most support sets have some form of alpha strike mitigation in the form of defense buffs, resistance buffs or healing but Trick Arrow only really has Flash Arrow for Alpha Strike mitigation. It has Glue Arrow and Poison Gas Arrow to provide general damage mitigation but neither of them are much use at mitigating that first alpha strike.

It also suffers a lot because later sets were designed around a higher level of power. When it came out the ability to stack two different resistance debuffs was a huge selling point but nowadays there are sets that can do in one power what takes TA two.

So overall I think Trick Arrow does need to be looked at. I wouldn't say that it's unplayable but it's definitely showing it's age compared to other support sets.

 

 

 

[Rumors]

I personally think Trick Arrow works best on a Controller.  Entangling Arrow can stack with the single target immobilize or allow them to skip it and also sets up Containment for extra damage.  Ice Arrow can stack with the single target hold to instantly lock down any boss, for example, while glue arrow can negate the need to use mass-immobilizes.  The debuffs are still very potent and Oil Slick will burn down everything still just as well and the 'Troller has the option of mass-immobilizing the crowd in it to keep them from fleeing.  And, of course, EMP Arrow gives them a second mass hold to really lock down the everything if they need or want to.

 

On live, one of my most memorable moments on my Grav/TA Controller was when we had a full team wipe from a combination of a second pull and an ambush.  Except me.  We had three whole groups attacking, including six bosses.  Thanks to Trick Arrow and me speccing for excessive control, I kept everything locked down long enough for the team to go to the hospital, run across the zone, run across the mission map, and return to the fight.  Pulling that off would not have been possible without TA and all of its hard and soft controls.

[Pixie_Knight]

I think that Trick Arrow is a decent somewhat control heavy set that suffers from one major drawback: it sucks at alpha strike mitigation. Most support sets have some form of alpha strike mitigation in the form of defense buffs, resistance buffs or healing but Trick Arrow only really has Flash Arrow for Alpha Strike mitigation. It has Glue Arrow and Poison Gas Arrow to provide general damage mitigation but neither of them are much use at mitigating that first alpha strike.

It also suffers a lot because later sets were designed around a higher level of power. When it came out the ability to stack two different resistance debuffs was a huge selling point but nowadays there are sets that can do in one power what takes TA two.

So overall I think Trick Arrow does need to be looked at. I wouldn't say that it's unplayable but it's definitely showing it's age compared to other support sets.

 

Once you get it, Oil Slick followed by Glue Arrow to keep enemies in it does a very good job of mitigating alpha strikes. Then if you can set the oil slick on fire, enemies don't last long enough to be an issue. It can sometimes be rough early on, but as long as the team isn't trying to do anything too crazy (like absolute max difficulty settings on an 8 man team) surviving isn't too difficult. And if you're worried about an alpha strike, a Luck or two will help with that.

[subbacultchas]

I like TA quite a bit, or used to at least. I haven't tried it since this came back up, but I remember having an Elec/TA Controller I liked a lot.

[Dafydd Hywel]

It's not the most kick ass by any stretch of imagination but, I have always had an Archery/TA defender in my line up of alts. I enjoy the concept.

[Carnifax]

Trick Arrow needs a buff, and I say that as someone who played a Grav/TA on Live (before the Grav improvements too). A few of the debuffs are basically "Let's split Freezing Rain into chunks and use those as separate powers". They need a few effects / buffs added to them to make them worth it. A few of the recharge times also need looking at (Sonic also needs this).

 

Tactical Arrow (the Blaster version) is great though, I'd imagine that the two versions of EMP Arrow need to be looked at and the recharges changed to something in between the Trick and Tactical versions.

 

 

[cranebump]

One of my favorite characters back in the day was a TA/Archery Def. Loves the quick attacks, setting the slick on fire. Just a fun, fun set. My current archers, however, tend to be sentinels or blasters. I’m finding I really like archery/martial for a solo blappee. Not quite as awesome for teams due to all the KB (explosive arrow, dragons tail). You purchase some grenades with all that, though, and your enemies will spend so much time flying into walls you can just pick them off while they get back up.

 

All that said, though, I do need to trick out a Trick Arrow Def soon. Thanks for bringing back some great memories!

[Coyotedancer]

I ran a Trick/Archery Defender back in the Live days as half of a static duo with my husband's Demons/Thermal Mastermind, and they were entertaining. Not the fastest pair we had, but pretty much unstoppable. 

 

I can't say anything about how the set handles solo, though, since Zhen was never run without her partner.... or about how it compares on anything but a Defender. 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[DoctorDitko]

IIRC, you can even use the Taser inherent power to ignite your Oil Slick.

Pretty slick, really.

[kiramon]

Don't think it's great on a traditional MMA -- I would probably only ever use it with like bots personally... anyways

 

I play an Archer/TA with like 27 procs... it's fun. It does well. You never stop shooting. Procced EMP can wipe a room. Then just nuke down your Endurance, use ageless and keep going. etc etc.

 

I like it a lot, but I play it on a corruptor where I don't really care about the rest of the team in the traditional sense. 

[ForeverLaxx]

Trick Arrow gets a bad reputation because what it brings to the team isn't particularly flashy so it's harder to know what's going on. On the live servers, my TA/A Defender kept entire teams alive by himself by cranking up clear speeds and keeping things attacking so rarely that the other ATs could just rely on their own natural regeneration to shrug off whatever damage they were taking. Put a TA on a team with any other support class, though, and all that assistance is going to be attributed to them and not you.

 

My only problem with TA is the constant redraw if you don't also take Archery, and Archery is a bit of sad set overall, though I do like playing it.

[ForeverLaxx]

48 minutes ago, DoctorDitko said:

IIRC, you can even use the Taser inherent power to ignite your Oil Slick.

Pretty slick, really.

Any power which does fire or energy damage will ignite the Slick, so that also includes the Apprentice Charm on top of the Taser.

[CaptTastic]

It’s an outstanding set and one that doesn’t get anywhere near the credit it deserves. I had a TA/A Defender on Live and he’s about the only character I’ve remade on HC. 
 

If anything, he’s even better now because buff-heavy defender sets tend to feel a bit superfluous in end game given that most players seem to have buffed themselves with IOs before you even get to them. Since TA is all debuffs, though, a TA character makes everyone better. 
 

With a defence and recharge build, I find my TA/A solos great too. Ignited Oil Slick arrow, glue arrow, procced-out acid arrow, then a RoA and explosive arrow and a mob is pretty much done. 

[TheOtherTed]

11 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

I can't say anything about how the set handles solo, though, since Zhen was never run without her partner.... or about how it compares on anything but a Defender. 

Based on my experiences current and past, solo play starts to get difficult as early as the mid twenties, and is nearly impossible in the forties.  I love the set, but if someone wants to solo, they might want to consider an Archery/TA corruptor.

[Nemeroff]

3 hours ago, DoctorDitko said:

IIRC, you can even use the Taser inherent power to ignite your Oil Slick.

Pretty slick, really.

This is correct.

Whereas some Sets are jack of all trades with buffs, debuffs, hard/soft control etc..., TA is a debuff Set.

Over the years there were jokes about a Healing Arrow (to the chest) but I always envisioned it as like a Triangle Becon; hits the ground, healing radius.

I had TA/A Def on Live, not to 50 but TA isn't OP nor lame. Currently TA/Water.

[Coyote]

TA is weak solo, because it has no self-survival powers. No heals, no +Def, no +Res, no +Regen.

It does debuff reasonably well, but that doesn't help enough, especially if you raise the difficulty even a bit and then face mobs with +ToHit (so they rip through a Ranged Defense build based on IO set bonuses).

On teams, where other players can either provide defense or better yet, take the aggro, it works well. You just have to figure out a way to avoid getting shot at, and it's a fine set. Shame that it kind of folds when accurate mobs actually start shooting at you.

[Nyghtmaire]

I find it nigh unplayable on defenders, masterminds, and corruptors in today’s game. But for a controller with a confuse, it’s an enjoyable diversion. 

[roleki]

On 6/5/2019 at 1:54 PM, Rumors said:

I personally think Trick Arrow works best on a Controller.  Entangling Arrow can stack with the single target immobilize or allow them to skip it and also sets up Containment for extra damage.  Ice Arrow can stack with the single target hold to instantly lock down any boss, for example, while glue arrow can negate the need to use mass-immobilizes.  The debuffs are still very potent and Oil Slick will burn down everything still just as well and the 'Troller has the option of mass-immobilizing the crowd in it to keep them from fleeing.  And, of course, EMP Arrow gives them a second mass hold to really lock down the everything if they need or want to.

 

On live, one of my most memorable moments on my Grav/TA Controller was when we had a full team wipe from a combination of a second pull and an ambush.  Except me.  We had three whole groups attacking, including six bosses.  Thanks to Trick Arrow and me speccing for excessive control, I kept everything locked down long enough for the team to go to the hospital, run across the zone, run across the mission map, and return to the fight.  Pulling that off would not have been possible without TA and all of its hard and soft controls.

 As a controller secondary, /TA is one of my favorite power sets... Yes, the set lacks buffs, but the tradeoff is an unholy amount of control and debuff.  An x/TA can easily lock down three spawns at once if it had to., and has the tools to make minions/lieutenants melt in the background while you grind the bosses down to nothing.  The only variable is how long it takes your primary to dispatch bosses. 

 

I ran what was believed to be the first (and for a long time, only) level 50 Ice/TA controller on live; I had to light OSA with Taser Dart (TASER DART!) and Jack would run away from a lit OSA... it was the absolute WORST pairing imaginable, and I *still* loved it.  

 

That said, I tried a TA/Fire defender thinking that would shore up the lack of offense and light OSA a million different ways; it did, but it exposed how much TA relies on +Mag from other sources to make it effective.  

[CaptTastic]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

TA is weak solo, because it has no self-survival powers. No heals, no +Def, no +Res, no +Regen.

It does debuff reasonably well, but that doesn't help enough, especially if you raise the difficulty even a bit and then face mobs with +ToHit (so they rip through a Ranged Defense build based on IO set bonuses).

On teams, where other players can either provide defense or better yet, take the aggro, it works well. You just have to figure out a way to avoid getting shot at, and it's a fine set. Shame that it kind of folds when accurate mobs actually start shooting at you.

Surely every set has such a weakness though. Shame that invul folds when Psi start shooting at you. Shame shield defence folds when defence debuffs start stacking on you, etc etc etc. Every set has limitations. My TA def is no more squishy than any other of my characters whose AT wasn't specifically designed to take aggro, and he can solo fine. Yes, he may not solo +4/x8 (although he can certain weaker groups such as council), but he's by no means a 'weak' soloer. 

[Giovanni Valia]

I like tactical arrow better.