Forget Defense! Let's proc out Plant and live by the skin of our seeds.

[Onlyasandwich]

Here for your review is my build of the week! I seem to be making a lot of controllers lately. 😄

 

This is my first time with both Plant and /Thermal, so I'd appreciate the insight of those who may have used these sets extensively before.

 

The idea behind this build is to squeeze in as much damage as possible into this little package without sacrificing too much in the way of recharge and basic survivability.

 

Since Plant/ has such a powerful opener available every spawn in Seeds, I figured it is a prime opportunity to knock down the doors of defense and abandon all hope of softcap. In doing so, I've even left some very juicy ranged defense bonuses one slot away, favoring extra damage instead. I've supported this with a solid layer of resists (sans fighting!), as well as Rune to mitigate any volleys that make their way back before I have lockdown. Playing without softcap is also just a lot more fun tactically if you have the tools to tackle it.

 

I'd love your opinions on how much of this is great, and how much is just silly.

 

Some more specific questions:

• Carrion Creepers is apparently a super proccy fun time power, and slow procs are prime here. Has anything changed to diminish it in this way, or is a proc approach still quite effective? I included the Controller ATO purple damage proc here as well to give it a damage IO that procced on every single power within the creeper pet - at least that's how I think it will work. Am I wrong?
• Power choice seems pretty straightforward, but am I missing any of your favorites? If so, what makes it worth a pick in your opinion?
• Is it entirely criminal to underslot my shields? I'm pretty sure I can keep teams plenty safe as is, and they make efficient and useful mules.

 

Thematic considerations and personal preferences:

• I like slow resist - this is evident in my slotting.
• I am married to fire app - gotta burn!
• I like buildup proc in forge. Basically gives me a personal buildup when I buff my buddies/fly trap. 
• The Psi res IOs are silly I know. These could definitely be flexed for a better purpose. However, if they serve another purpose, I want it to be damage!

 

The build:

Spoiler

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.1.2.5
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Plant Control
Secondary Power Set: Thermal Radiation
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Sorcery
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Fire Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Strangler -- GldJvl-Dam%(A), Apc-Dam%(43), GldNet-Dam%(45), NrnSht-Dam%(46), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(46), UnbCns-Dam%(46)
Level 1: Warmth -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(36), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(37), Prv-Heal/Rchg(37), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(37), Prv-Absorb%(40)
Level 2: Roots -- SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(A), SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(3), SprOvrPrs-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(3), SprOvrPrs-Rchg/Energy Font(5)
Level 4: Thermal Shield -- Ags-Psi/Status(A), ImpArm-ResPsi(50)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(7), Rct-ResDam%(7), Ksm-ToHit+(15)
Level 8: Seeds of Confusion -- CrcPrs-Conf/EndRdx(A), CrcPrs-Conf/Rchg(9), CrcPrs-Acc/Conf/Rchg(9), CrcPrs-Acc/Rchg(11), CrcPrs-Conf%(11), Ccp-Dam%(13)
Level 10: Plasma Shield -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), ImpArm-ResPsi(36)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 14: Mystic Flight -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 16: Arcane Bolt -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(17), GldJvl-Dam%(31), ExpStr-Dam%(34)
Level 18: Vines -- UnbCns-Hold(A), UnbCns-Hold/Rchg(19), UnbCns-Acc/Hold/Rchg(19), UnbCns-Acc/Rchg(21), UnbCns-EndRdx/Hold(21)
Level 20: Rune of Protection -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), StdPrt-ResKB(50)
Level 22: Enflame -- SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(A), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(23), JvlVll-Dam%(25), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(25), PstBls-Dam%(31)
Level 24: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 26: Carrion Creepers -- SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprWiloft-EndRdx/Rchg(27), SprWiloft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(27), SprWiloft-Rchg/Dmg%(29), ImpSwf-Dam%(29), IceMisTrmt-+ColdDmg(31)
Level 28: Forge -- GssSynFr--Build%(A)
Level 30: Tactics -- HO:Cyto(A)
Level 32: Fly Trap -- ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(A), ExpRnf-Dmg/EndRdx(33), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(33), SlbAll-Build%(34), TchofLadG-%Dam(34)
Level 35: Heat Exhaustion -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 38: Melt Armor -- ShlBrk-Acc/Rchg(A), ShlBrk-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(39), ShlBrk-%Dam(39), AnlWkn-Acc/Rchg(39), TchofLadG-%Dam(40), AchHee-ResDeb%(40)
Level 41: Fire Ball -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(42), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(42), JvlVll-Dam%(42), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(43), PstBls-Dam%(43)
Level 44: Fire Shield -- GldArm-End/Res(A), GldArm-ResDam(45), GldArm-Res/Rech/End(45)
Level 47: Consume -- SynSck-Dam/Acc/End(A), SynSck-Dam/Rech/Acc(48), SynSck-EndMod/Rech(48), SynSck-Dam/Rech(48), SynSck-EndMod(50)
Level 49: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Containment 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(5)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(15)
Level 16: Arcane Power 
Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon 
------------

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Onlyasandwich

[Two Dollar Bill]

Defense isn't the only thing this build forsakes. How about support? You seem to have boiled down Thermal Radiation to Warmth and the two debuffs. Important support powers like Cauterize, both Shields and Forge are either missing completely or just slotted as mules. Is this character just intended to solo?

 

Strangler - I think five procs with some Accuracy will ultimately do more damage than six procs that miss a lot.

 

Seeds of Confusion - It's great, though I think you would get more bang for your buck if you gave it a Range IO instead of a damage proc. Big cone attacks really get a lot of mileage out of range increases.

 

Enflame - I've tried to use Enflame and I'm not really sold on it. In an environment where you're spamming Seeds of Confusion and most mobs are fighting each other, is it going to be worth all the enhancement slots you have invested?

 

[Onlyasandwich]

Thank you for the feedback!

 

Accuracy against +3s (relevant with alpha) is capped for strangler. Even against +4s it's at 89%.

 

Indeed this is a fairly selfish build, though the buffs are by no means useless even with minimal slotting. /Fire resist shields don't have super impressive totals to enhance, and just doing controller things brings quite a bit of safety.

 

I could enhance forge for more tohit, but 20 is already quite a bit, and I don't feel worth further enhancement. Global recharge and hasten take care of the rest.

 

Cauterize is a strong heal, but I'm fine leaning on the aura when needed. Healing shouldn't be needed much if controlling is happening. Even on my emps it's a tossup as to whether I take heal other. Others aren't wrong for using it, but I don't have room in my playstyle for ST heals unless they serve other purposes as well.

 

Honestly I agree that I'm not leveraging fire all that much with this build. A lot of the reason for choosing it is thematic. I'm not super impressed with the set's potential overall, though will withhold judgement until I've really slotted it out and put it through it's paces. At a higher level it seems like a set more well suited to Defenders. I really think the debuffs especially would justify a shorter base cooldown.

 

Enflame works really well! I've used it on a few Doms and controllers, and it pumps out reliable damage with an aoe immob in place. It is better on Doms as they get much higher AT modifier for damage, but it's thematic and still does work here.

 

I'm still considering if I might just remake this as a dom in any case. However, I really wanted to mess with the purple ato damage proc in carrion creepers, and Doms don't get one.

 

 

 

 

 

[Two Dollar Bill]

The most valuable thing about Forge is actually the damage buff. If you enhance its recharge you can buff more teammates.

 

Maybe I exemplar a lot more than you do. My Pain Domination characters, including Controllers, take Share Pain because six-slotted Nullify Pain isn't always enough healing.

 

On the subject of Thermal Radiation, I have a Thermal/Energy Defender and a Demon/Thermal Mastermind that I play pretty regularly. I think it has a good balance of offensive and defensive powers. You can keep your teammates alive by making them resist damage and healing them. You can increase your team's damage output substantially with Forge and of course Melt Armor. I generally only break out Heat Exhaustion when dealing with big boss-types, but it does work great.

 

I still have a character somewhere with Enflame. Maybe I will give it another chance!

 

[Onlyasandwich]

1 hour ago, Two Dollar Bill said:

The most valuable thing about Forge is actually the damage buff. If you enhance its recharge you can buff more teammates.

 

Maybe I exemplar a lot more than you do. My Pain Domination characters, including Controllers, take Share Pain because six-slotted Nullify Pain isn't always enough healing.

 

On the subject of Thermal Radiation, I have a Thermal/Energy Defender and a Demon/Thermal Mastermind that I play pretty regularly. I think it has a good balance of offensive and defensive powers. You can keep your teammates alive by making them resist damage and healing them. You can increase your team's damage output substantially with Forge and of course Melt Armor. I generally only break out Heat Exhaustion when dealing with big boss-types, but it does work great.

 

I still have a character somewhere with Enflame. Maybe I will give it another chance!

 

Even without the immob down, Enflame causes a lot less fleeing behavior these days! I'd definitely recommend giving it a shot. Double special super bonus if you have a tanky pet to drop it on, along with tp other. Enflame+singy is a thing of beauty.

 

I can see where more recharge in Forge would be nice for sure, but the ~26 seconds I have is about as much as I would want to manage it. It is certainly a good buff! Given global recharge totals, even enhancing this recharge locally wouldn't be an enormous difference in # of instances I can keep up.

 

/Fire definitely has a bit of a unique mix of powers, though I'm finding more that perhaps it is a certain mix of power types that don't really excite me. I'm going to make a dom build for this alongside and see which I like best. 😄 

 

Mostly I just look at Melt Armor and wonder why it has to be so much worse than Sleet/Freezing rain. Longer cooldown, harder to hit with, no extra control effect. Of course, one could say this about pretty much any resist debuff power that isn't Freezing Rain. It really is a good power on its own merits.

 

I exemp a good amount, and do build my characters with this in mind. That being said, I just haven't ever found the need for anything beyond patch healing on any of my many controllers.

[Carnifax]

I used my Parser to test procs of different types in Creepers. General ranking is : Damage procs > Controller purple proc > Immob Proc >> Slow procs >> KB Procs

 

On an 8 man council (Creeper Patch + Creeper Vines)

Bombardment (Dam) : 161 + 57 = 218
Explosive Strike (KB) : 22 + 15 = 37
Impeded Swiftness (Slow) : 32 + 55 = 87
Javelin Volley (Dam) : 161 + 69 = 230
Posi's Blast (Dam) : 175 + 62 = 237
Trap of the Hunter (immob) : 132 + 0 = 132

 

The controller proc acts like an Immob proc here (because the only control Creepers do is immob) but it has a higher proc rate. It's also part of an excellent set so I personally don't break it. 

 

So proc wise, the best slotting I've found is Posi's Blast + Javelin Volley + Bombardment + Trap of the Hunter and then two random Acc/Dam/Recharge IOs (one of them can be Bombardment for 5% range on cones). My Plant Stormie thus has Bombardment Acc/Dam/Recharge, Bombardment proc, Artillery Acc/Dam/Recharge, Posi's Blast proc, Javelins Volley Proc, Trap of the Hunter proc. 

 

Note that the Grav Anchor purple immob proc would be pretty nice on Creepers too if you wanted one that would hold things (on things in the patches, they won't trigger from Vine attacks). 

 

I also like Achilles Heel in Fly Trap but that's up to you really. 

 

[Onlyasandwich]

34 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

I used my Parser to test procs of different types in Creepers.

Thank you so much for the testing, @Carnifax!

 

I hadn't really understood the idea that the controller proc will only proc on control effects, though of course it makes sense since it's only slottable in control powers. This makes creepers a fairly suboptimal place for the set.

 

It's also useful to see that although there are technically more slow powers between the creeper entities, the Ranged aoe power is more impactful overall from a proc perspective. Basically, proc efforts are best focused towards the effects of the Bramble/Entangle powers and entity, rather than the powers from the Vines entity.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Onlyasandwich

[Hedgefund]

41 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

I used my Parser to test procs of different types in Creepers. General ranking is : Damage procs > Controller purple proc > Immob Proc >> Slow procs >> KB Procs

 

On an 8 man council (Creeper Patch + Creeper Vines)

Bombardment (Dam) : 161 + 57 = 218
Explosive Strike (KB) : 22 + 15 = 37
Impeded Swiftness (Slow) : 32 + 55 = 87
Javelin Volley (Dam) : 161 + 69 = 230
Posi's Blast (Dam) : 175 + 62 = 237
Trap of the Hunter (immob) : 132 + 0 = 132

 

The controller proc acts like an Immob proc here (because the only control Creepers do is immob) but it has a higher proc rate. It's also part of an excellent set so I personally don't break it. 

 

So proc wise, the best slotting I've found is Posi's Blast + Javelin Volley + Bombardment + Trap of the Hunter and then two random Acc/Dam/Recharge IOs (one of them can be Bombardment for 5% range on cones). My Plant Stormie thus has Bombardment Acc/Dam/Recharge, Bombardment proc, Artillery Acc/Dam/Recharge, Posi's Blast proc, Javelins Volley Proc, Trap of the Hunter proc. 

 

Note that the Grav Anchor purple immob proc would be pretty nice on Creepers too if you wanted one that would hold things (on things in the patches, they won't trigger from Vine attacks). 

 

I also like Achilles Heel in Fly Trap but that's up to you really. 

 

Just curious, have you tested to see if total damage is better with the Annihilation -res proc in lieu of the TotH proc?

[Carnifax]

36 minutes ago, Hedgefund said:

Just curious, have you tested to see if total damage is better with the Annihilation -res proc in lieu of the TotH proc?

Nope, and it's one gap in my Parser. I don't parse debuffs directly (mostly because the log entries aren't easy to create a suitable regex for) and I've never tried that proc in Creepers. Certainly worth a look. 

 

By all means feel free, parser is in my sig (https://www.carnifax.org/ for those on mobile) and I'd be interested to see the difference on a Council x 8 with and without it. 

[Carnifax]

51 minutes ago, Onlyasandwich said:

Thank you so much for the testing, @Carnifax!

 

I hadn't really understood the idea that the controller proc will only proc on control effects, though of course it makes sense since it's only slottable in control powers. This makes creepers a fairly suboptimal place for the set.

 

It's also useful to see that although there are technically more slow powers between the creeper entities, the Ranged aoe power is more impactful overall from a proc perspective. Basically, proc efforts are best focused towards the effects of the Bramble/Entangle powers and entity, rather than the powers from the Vines entity.

I think it's more that the Patch powers also do damage, so both Vines and the brambles patch will trigger damage procs. Others seem limited to one or the other. 

[Onlyasandwich]

17 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

I think it's more that the Patch powers also do damage, so both Vines and the brambles patch will trigger damage procs. Others seem limited to one or the other. 

It seems counterintuitive that the vine powers would proc ranged aoe damage procs, as vine smash and vine thorn are both single target. What matters most of course is what procs produce the best end result, for which your testing provides a great baseline.

 

Still, it would be interesting to see this parsed out further by proc and specific pet power to understand the behavior.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Onlyasandwich

[Carnifax]

5 minutes ago, Onlyasandwich said:

It seems counterintuitive that the vine powers would proc ranged aoe damage procs, as vine smash and vine thorn are both single target. What matters most of course is what procs produce the best end result, for which your testing provides a great baseline.

 

Still, it would be interesting to see this parsed out further by proc and specific pet power to understand the behavior.

Doesn't matter if they're technically single target, the powers are coded as accepting Targeted AOE Damage sets. I assume that was because they needed to take some Damage set so they decided Targetted AOE was the most suitable of the 4. 

 

Here's a run I just did with my usual slotting

https://www.carnifax.org/?uuid=c5350d99-fd40-4ea2-a1d5-0e038983dd77

(just noticed the dps figures are 0 for some reason, I probably borked that bit that calcs those at the end of the parse run)

 

There's a full breakdown of procs in the two Creeper powers there (I need to table-ize those, the tree is annoying). 

 

 

 

 

[Onlyasandwich]

10 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

Doesn't matter if they're technically single target, the powers are coded as accepting Targeted AOE Damage sets

Got it! I was going off the usual logic of procs in pet powers. It's good to understand that there are exceptions! I wonder how many other pets might have similar exceptions.

[Carnifax]

37 minutes ago, Onlyasandwich said:

Got it! I was going off the usual logic of procs in pet powers. It's good to understand that there are exceptions! I wonder how many other pets might have similar exceptions.

I don't know where the divide is, in terms of if it being damage is good enough and the control is which sets the power can slot.

 

Honestly it taking targeted ranged is probably a mistake given how filthy it is with damage procs. I'd have given it pet and intensive recharge pet. But I have the gift of hindsight with it in fairness.

 

Wouldn't be weird for Creepers to take pet sets. Tornado, for example, takes pet sets rather than PBAoE damage.

[Onlyasandwich]

Yeah, "usual logic" might be a misnomer here.😂

 

I'll take it how it is for sure though. It's fun to optimize for weirdness when it creates such fantastic returns.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Onlyasandwich

[oedipus_tex]

I know you are committed by theme to Fire, and we just chatted in the other thread about a comparison to Plant/Fire Dominators. If your theme is open to interpreting Kinetics as "fire energy" or something similar, I can tell you for sure Plant/Kinetics is designed to do exactly what you're hoping to do here, which is build a proc-based Plant monstrosity. I do like Plant/Thermal for a few reasons, mainly as a strong support character. Plant/Kin though may be the proc monster you're looking for, if a meat grinder made of thorns and vines is your speed. 

[Onlyasandwich]

Thank you for the additional thoughts, @oedipus_tex! 

 

I have about a million iterations of kinetics, so not the path for this specific character. I can imagine that the pairing is quite potent indeed, however.