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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Voltor said:

The old saying "use it or lose it", Leia may be instinctively using the Force at this time in the Obi series, but without training and being sheltered by Bail Organa and trained as a diplomat and joining the rebellion, her Force powers could have faded.  


Vader sensed Luke in the trench attack on the Death Star and later learned he was the one that blew up the Death Star and that his name was Skywalker. That was when Vader knew his child survived and he began to change.   In Empire Luke's training unlocked his power and the Emperor realized what a threat Luke could be.  ROTJ Vader and Luke sense each other but that could also be the father/son bond via the Force.   Until Luke revealed the truth to Leia she had no real awareness of her power, with her awareness comes her power as she sensed Luke survived at the end. However she wasn't trained yet and did not seem able to see the ghosts at the end.

 

 

I simply do not buy any of this at all.  I seem to recall several lines of dialogue along the lines of "the force will be with you always" and the like, so the force "fading" makes absolutely zero sense and seems a rather large stretch.

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20 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I simply do not buy any of this at all.  I seem to recall several lines of dialogue along the lines of "the force will be with you always" and the like, so the force "fading" makes absolutely zero sense and seems a rather large stretch.

I'm betting it's some ability to mask your presence or make yourself Dim like Randall Flagg. Palpatine was able to mask his presence without losing any power, and that ability might not be exclusive to the Sith. Heck, Obi-wan might know it and might be the one to teach it to her. Or he just gives her a set of cortosis hairpins. 😄

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3 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

I simply do not buy any of this at all.  I seem to recall several lines of dialogue along the lines of "the force will be with you always" and the like, so the force "fading" makes absolutely zero sense and seems a rather large stretch.

 

Ahsoko Tano tells Mando that Grogu/baby Yoda has a lot of fear in him and that it may be best to let his abilities fade.

 

The classic game: Jedi Knight: Jedi Outcast had Kyle Katarn go through the process of rediscovering his abilities as he let them fade after Dark Forces 2.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

I simply do not buy any of this at all.  I seem to recall several lines of dialogue along the lines of "the force will be with you always" and the like, so the force "fading" makes absolutely zero sense and seems a rather large stretch.

I don't think it's so much that the force is fading, just that a Jedi, who likely is able to "reach out with their feelings" or letting "the force flow through them" at an almost instinctual level, due to training from an early age, is able to suppress that.  It'd be almost like a person, who passively breathes without thinking much about it, may have to switch to taking only shallow breaths, if they were working in a particularly stinky environment or such...

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12 hours ago, Voltor said:

 

And there 's the old question of how would the Enterprise fare against the Death Star

It all goes down to shielding.  I don't recall every detail from Episode IV, but if, as folks used to point out,  there's no shielding, Enterprise has torpedoes that can make stardust of a small moon.  And they have the ability to make antimatter bombs (episode "Obsession").  Take out the array, and the only other dangerous defence, the TIEs, fall to transporters and phasers.  The surface-level weapons towers would be incapable of reaching a ship that can phaser-drill a planet's core from orbit.

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Posted (edited)

If they fire first (or spot the primary weapon array charging and get lucky with evasive maneuvers), Classic/Pike Enterprise could run'n'gun around the Death Star.

Defiant's more suited to this gig - could even just about do the Trench Run sideways.

Disco could use Magic Mushroom Drive to jump out of the firing arc repeatedly.

 

Picard gets obliterated before they've even got coffee set up for the board meeting. Which is frankly just rude, but that's Imperials for ya.

 

EDIT: thought strikes me. How do the Enterprise cope when they meet their first Force user? Are Spock / Troi Force-sensitive?

(Or maybe another member of the crew - Bones would be pretty hilarious...)

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1 hour ago, Techwright said:

It all goes down to shielding.  I don't recall every detail from Episode IV, but if, as folks used to point out,  there's no shielding, Enterprise has torpedoes that can make stardust of a small moon.  And they have the ability to make antimatter bombs (episode "Obsession").  Take out the array, and the only other dangerous defence, the TIEs, fall to transporters and phasers.  The surface-level weapons towers would be incapable of reaching a ship that can phaser-drill a planet's core from orbit.

 

I think in ep 4 the Death Star defenses were designed to ward off capital ships, but their deflectors weren't built to effectively block starfighters.

 

Also the original Enterprise DID take a few blasts from the Doomsday Machine's planet destroying beam before shields went down and the hull began to suffer. So maybe one blast from the Death Star super laser could have been withstood.  But once Enterprise shields dropped, the Tie fighters and laser cannons may well end the fight.

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10 hours ago, Krimson said:

I'm betting it's some ability to mask your presence or make yourself Dim like Randall Flagg. Palpatine was able to mask his presence without losing any power, and that ability might not be exclusive to the Sith. Heck, Obi-wan might know it and might be the one to teach it to her. Or he just gives her a set of cortosis hairpins. 😄

 

Just a slight difference in power and ability between Palpatine and a ten year old with no knowledge or training, no? 😉

 

7 hours ago, Voltor said:

Ahsoko Tano tells Mando that Grogu/baby Yoda has a lot of fear in him and that it may be best to let his abilities fade.

 

That line did not make sense to me either.

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1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:
9 hours ago, Voltor said:

Ahsoko Tano tells Mando that Grogu/baby Yoda has a lot of fear in him and that it may be best to let his abilities fade.

 

That line did not make sense to me either.

 

I thought she was saying, "uhh... he might go evil... I've seen it before."

 

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2 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

I thought she was saying, "uhh... he might go evil... I've seen it before."

 

Thought so too. The Force is a powerful ally, and in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, a powerful weapon. You don't necessarily want someone lashing out with it in fear or anger, let alone someone with as much natural talent as Grogu has. 

 

That said, Grogu's primary instincts seem to be towards protection and compassion (and snacks).

He's been through a lot for a youngling, even a 50-year-old one, but he knows love when he feels it.

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9 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

If they fire first (or spot the primary weapon array charging and get lucky with evasive maneuvers), Classic/Pike Enterprise could run'n'gun around the Death Star.

Defiant's more suited to this gig - could even just about do the Trench Run sideways.

Disco could use Magic Mushroom Drive to jump out of the firing arc repeatedly.

 

Picard gets obliterated before they've even got coffee set up for the board meeting. Which is frankly just rude, but that's Imperials for ya.

 

EDIT: thought strikes me. How do the Enterprise cope when they meet their first Force user? Are Spock / Troi Force-sensitive?

(Or maybe another member of the crew - Bones would be pretty hilarious...)

"Magic Mushroom Drive"...okay, that made me laugh.

 

It's a good point:  The Defiant was designed to hold out against an adaptable Borg cube (notice I said "hold out".  I'm well aware of what happened to Defiant I.).  A Deathstar, fascist though it be, is far less efficient.  Less transporters on the Defiant, however.  I'm a fan of Diane Duane's books, and in "My Enemy, My Ally" she showed the potential for even a small transporter to wreak chaos on an opposing force.  Having several cargo transporters would be frighteningly effective in a willing hand.

 

Picard would have one thing going for him.  The ship would probably die anyway, but he might take out the dish using the Picard Maneuver

Picard Maneuver: The Podcast (@picardmanpod) / Twitter

(No not that one, the real one.)

 

As to the Enterprise coping with a force user?  Hand Sulu a light saber, for one. ("Hand Sulu"...hmm..."Han Sulu" Well, it is a merged universe 😉)  Honestly, though?  Trek has a history of talking it out with or tricking superpowered entities: V'Ger, Apollo, the Squire of Gothos, Q (all of 'em), Plato's Stepchildren, and the Prophets/Wormhole Aliens to name a few.

Trek telepathic connections to the force would probably be about the same as in their universe: limited.  Q play with the substructure of the universe all the time, and it doesn't alert the telepaths.  Now that said, there is the matter of Guinan and her people.  They do seem to be able to sense the greater universe around them.  Guinan just might sense a force user.

 

 

Sorry, this is really derailing the thread.  

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

 

Thought so too. The Force is a powerful ally, and in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing, a powerful weapon. You don't necessarily want someone lashing out with it in fear or anger, let alone someone with as much natural talent as Grogu has. 

 

That said, Grogu's primary instincts seem to be towards protection and compassion (and snacks).

He's been through a lot for a youngling, even a 50-year-old one, but he knows love when he feels it.

 

Of course he seems like a good guy... but then again look at the choice he just made to leave the temple and travel with Mando.  It's possible this might go a different way.

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

It's possible this might go a different way.

 

Grogu was offered the choice of wisdom, power, and learning... or a loving father and a new extended family bound by both honour and love to protect him.

It would seem, from the small beats with Obi-Wan in E3, that's a choice Jedi don't get offered a lot.

 

Been very busy today so only just settling down with a mug of tea and headphones to watch Ep4. Usual aimless gibbering will follow, but I've noticed a lot of people on the Interweb pipes talking about a direct lift from Fallen Order. Wonder if everyone's favourite ginger Jedi will put in an appearance?

 

Oh, and Archer's Enterprise might get a couple of shots in but a Vader-led TIE squadron would take him. And his little dog, too.

[FX: menacing space-witch cackles fading off into distance, because we haven't screwed with canon enough yet]

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On 6/7/2022 at 2:05 AM, Voltor said:

 

Ahsoko Tano tells Mando that Grogu/baby Yoda has a lot of fear in him and that it may be best to let his abilities fade.

 

The classic game: Jedi Knight: Jedi Outcast had Kyle Katarn go through the process of rediscovering his abilities as he let them fade after Dark Forces 2.

Make Kyle Katarn canon!!!

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

 

Been very busy today so only just settling down with a mug of tea and headphones to watch Ep4. Usual aimless gibbering will follow, but I've noticed a lot of people on the Interweb pipes talking about a direct lift from Fallen Order.

 

 

This episode had a LOT of references to other Star Wars works.  The Fallen Order one was just the most obvious one.

 

Spoiler

References:

1. The obvious one:  Using the shattered glass of the Inquisitorium to flood the passageway to allow escape.  Fallen Order

2. Leia trying to threaten with rank and status. A New Hope

3. Leia interrogation with a lot of sass.  A New Hope

4. Obi deflecting blaster bolts into other enemies.  The Prequel Trilogy

5. T-47 Speeders.  Empire Strikes Back.  

6.  Master Tera Sinube, 1st Jedi in amber that Kenobi and the camera focus upon.  The Clone Wars, episode "Lightsaber Lost" (appearances in other episodes as well)  There was also an unclear shot of a creature which might have been one of two known Jedi from the same species.  One of those was a Jedi Council member, Coleman Kcaj.

7. Lightsaber attacks on stormtroopers in a darkened interrogation room.  The Force Unleashed II trailer.

8. Reva's charging cry of "Betrayer!" The Force Awakens - Kylo's rage-cry of "traitor" towards Flynn.

 

Thoughts:

 

1. Stormtroopers never live to learn:  when you hear a noise behind the door you are guarding...solo... you call it in.  You do no open the door and look hard to one side exposing the back of your head.  Honestly, since there's an Evil Overlord's List, there should be an Evil Minion's List as well, and this should be on it.

 

2. I'm reminded of a line from Der Fuehrer's Face, that Nazi-mocking WWII hit by the Spike Jones Orchestra:  "they'll never bomb this place".  Arguably the third most powerful fortress in the galaxy, and they have no underwater sensors, and apparently no long range sensors to see two fighter craft approaching.  They also have a big open deck apparently with no anti-aircraft weaponry, and with masses of equipment and troops just waiting for conical ranged destruction.  Oh and they hang their ships from the ceiling where its not easy to jump in and pursue.  The word for today, kids, is "overconfidence".

 

3. A good psych-out.  Some of the YouTube reactors agreed with my feelings that Tala couldn't possibly survive the fortress.  Clearly the design was to make us think that, then kill Wade instead, a character we barely knew.  But the impact was still powerful and sobering.

 

4. When are they going to give Fourth Sister meaningful dialog and something to do other than to stare menacingly?  It's really getting bizarre by this point.  She's window dressing, and that doesn't seem like something that should be for an Inquisitor since they are so rare.

 

5. Vader's rage was awesome.  Even Kenobi didn't gain such a vigorous reaction after Vader started wearing the helmet.

 

6. The amber tombs:  so unexpected, and yet, maybe not.  Rumors have been swirling for a while now that Favreau and Filoni have been tasked with making sense out of the hash that is the Sequel Trilogy.  There've been hints of a secret cloning research project underway in both The Bad Batch and The Mandalorian.  Putting force-sensitives into amber is reminiscent of Jurassic Park getting DNA from mosquitos in amber.  Here, it may be a way to preserve the bodies of the force-sensitives to extract material at any time for the study and perfection of cloning or perhaps other techniques for constructing a force-sensitive body.  Palpatine may already be setting his ideas of immortality into motion.

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Make Kyle Katarn canon!!!

He already is.  The game is considered canon.  Make him live action...aye, that's what we want to see.

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1 minute ago, Techwright said:

 

This episode had a LOT of references to other Star Wars works.  The Fallen Order one was just the most obvious one.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

References:

1. The obvious one:  Using the shattered glass of the Inquisitorium to flood the passageway to allow escape.  Fallen Order

2. Leia trying to threaten with rank and status. A New Hope

3. Leia interrogation with a lot of sass.  A New Hope

4. Obi deflecting blaster bolts into other enemies.  The Prequel Trilogy

5. T-47 Speeders.  Empire Strikes Back.  

6.  Master Tera Sinube, 1st Jedi in amber Kenobi focuses upon.  The Clone Wars, episode "Lightsaber Lost" (appearances in other episodes as well)  There was also an unclear shot of a creature which might have been one of two known Jedi from the same species.  One of those was a Jedi Council member, Coleman Kcaj.

7. Lightsaber attacks on stormtroopers in a darkened interrogation room.  The Force Unleashed II trailer.

8. Reva's charging cry of "Betrayer!" The Force Awakens - Kylo's rage-cry of "traitor" towards Flynn.

 

Thoughts:

 

1. Stormtroopers never live to learn:  when you hear a noise behind the door you are guarding...solo... you call it in.  You do no open the door and look hard to one side exposing the back of your head.  Honestly, since there's an Evil Overlord's List, there should be an Evil Minion's List as well, and this should be on it.

 

2. I'm reminded of a line from Der Fuehrer's Face, that Nazi-mocking WWII hit by the Spike Jones Orchestra:  "they'll never bomb this place".  Arguably the third most powerful fortress in the galaxy, and they have no underwater sensors, and apparently no long range sensors to see two fighter craft approaching.  They also have a big open deck apparently with no anti-aircraft weaponry, and with masses of equipment and troops just waiting for conical ranged destruction.  Oh and they hang their ships from the ceiling where its not easy to jump in and pursue.  The word for today, kids, is "overconfidence".

 

3. A good psych-out.  Some of the YouTube reactors agreed with my feelings that Tala couldn't possibly survive the fortress.  Clearly the design was to make us think that, then kill Wade instead, a character we barely knew.  But the impact was still powerful and sobering.

 

4. When are they going to give Fourth Sister meaningful dialog and something to do other than to stare menacingly?  It's really getting bizarre by this point.  She's window dressing, and that doesn't seem like something that should be for an Inquisitor since they are so rare.

 

5. Vader's rage was awesome.  Even Kenobi didn't gain such a vigorous reaction after Vader started wearing the helmet.

 

6. The amber tombs:  so unexpected, and yet, maybe not.  Rumors have been swirling for a while now that Favreau and Filoni have been tasked with making sense out of the hash that is the Sequel Trilogy.  There've been hints of a secret cloning research project underway in both The Bad Batch and The Mandalorian.  Putting force-sensitives into amber is reminiscent of Jurassic Park getting DNA from mosquitos in amber.  Here, it may be a way to preserve the bodies of the force-sensitives to extract material at any time for the study and perfection of cloning or perhaps other techniques for constructing a force-sensitive body.  Palpatine may already be setting his ideas of immortality into motion.

 

 

 

 

He already is.  The game is considered canon.  Make him live action...aye, that's what we want to see.

I could've sworn I heard that Disney waved off the video game series in to "Legends" status. 

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Okay,  did some digging, and it appears that in the earliest stages of the game that would become Fallen Order, it was not canon.  But that quickly changed in the development phase.  Additionally, the sequel to the game, which is being called Jedi: Survivor is canon according to reports I've read.  Since it relies on the previous work, the previous work must be canon.

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7 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Make Kyle Katarn canon!!!

 

Dark Troopers appeared in Season 2 of Mandalorian, so I would presume Kyle is canon.

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Posted (edited)

Right. Finally caught up a few hours later than scheduled:

Spoiler
  • Crosscuts between Ben's burns and Anakin's mirrored the ones between Luke and Vader's cybernetics in ROTJ.
  • Many other bits of fanservice in this episode, including at least one actual fan.
  • Yeah, I hate airport security too. Bastards. All of them. Even the mouse droids.
  • The Jedassic Park Hall Of Horrors was a nicely nasty surprise. Especially the beat at the end: yesthe Empire will quite happily drown kids in amber too. Alive.
  • Side note thinking about the amber: is anyone else thinking John Noble would be a fantastic addition to Star Wars, or is he too close to McDiarmid in performance style?
  • I like that the characters (perhaps Ben, Vader and Second Brother aside) engage their brains and use doublethink.
    • Tala is very, very smart. "Of course I'm a spy". (If an Inquisitor's capable of at least surface reading someone's mind, you'd better be ready).
    • Leia's "can I ask my daddy, because we're all on the same side..." is genius, partly because it deflected Reva's line of questioning back on herself, and partly because it reminds me of the kind of detailed, circular and surprisingly well-crafted arguments I have to deal with when nieces are trying to get one over on their parents, teachers and/or me. I'm also fairly sure I've also been through Reva's "whattheWAITNOoyoulittleGIT" series of expressions quite a lot. Again, Space Mom would be proud.
    • And then Reva. It was right there, and yet I didn't spot it coming. Allow the enemy to think they've won, then track them to their base and destroy them? Neat idea. I wonder if Vader'll borrow that one later?
  • Somewhere on Raxus Prime, the head of Engineering Corps is beating his head on his desk: "AgainAGAIN??? Why... underwater... you... MORONS. You could have had the whole of a nice industrial park on Chandrila for a fraction of those credits and nobody would have looked at the place twice, but OH NO, it's got to be the Obvious Fortress of Doom with the custom bathrooms"...sighing, and requisitioning 200 Imperial Mop-Droids.
  • It's been blasted all over the internet, but that tiny moment between Ben and Leia is big. I might have cut there rather than the OH NOES EVIL LOLA giveaway.

 

Overall, I like: not the filler ep the Internet said it would be. Good setup for the final two episodes. It seems we're following a bit of an up/down cycle with each episode. So be prepared for a downbeat and Big Damn Cliffhanger in Episode 5. They've already used up the beat with Leia, so how do they rack up the tension next time?

Edited by ThaOGDreamWeaver

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11 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

It seems we're following a bit of an up/down cycle with each episode. So be prepared for a downbeat and Big Damn Cliffhanger in Episode 5. They've already used up the beat with Leia, so how do they rack up the tension next time?

 

Seems suggestively obvious to me.  They're going to pull an Episode VII move...

Spoiler

...and massacre a Resistance/Rebel cell village.  The destruction of The Path will be Kenobi's next big heartbreak, but it also might be his turning point as well.

 

Come to think of it: if they are going to be doing a second and third season/series, this well may be the mission that occupies his time while watching over Luke:  counselling the rebuilders of The Path, perhaps a Tatooine branch (though honestly, I think he'd want nothing on the planet that might draw attention to Luke.)

 

I'd not be surprised if Quinlan Vos appears in episode 5, though he may already be dead or slaughtered soon afterwards.  I'd not be surprised to see other recognizable Jedi as well.  (Maybe the one who got Grogu out of the Jedi Temple finally?) Then again, Vos has the force talent of psychometry, a talent shared by Cal Kestus.  It would be interesting if Vos shows up in Jedi: Survivor, to give Cal advanced training to hone this native ability.

 

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You can see where the writers would normally go with this, but they've definitely thrown a few curveballs.

 

Spoiler

Thought 1: massacre's a possibility, but a Hoth-style siege would also fit the bill. As would Ben doing something as dumb as, say, surrendering himself to buy everyone else an escape route.

 

Thought 2: we've seen the writers allow many characters to work smarter in this show. Ben recently repaired Lola so he knows how she works: I wonder if Leia or Ben might be observant enough to notice an Imperial haX0r job (given Reva didn't seem to have long, it might not be that subtle...) In which case, who's walking into a trap now?

 

Thought 1+2 = 3: Ben notices that Lola has issues, borrows her for "a couple of minutes", and takes off separately in one of the speeders. He'll be alone, sure, but he'll be able to pick the high ground.

 

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Something just occurred to me, and it might just be a big, ol' plot hole in episode 4:

Spoiler

Reva put a tracker in Lola the droid.

 

But why?

 

At the moment she controlled the droid there was no known threat of rescue.  Kenobi was incapacitated at the very least, Leia was secured deep in the bowels of the complex, and Reva was moving towards the torture step.  The first moment Reva is aware Kenobi has infiltrated is when the alarm went off when she was in a different part of the building, away from Leia and the droid.  So why put a tracker in the droid?  If there was info with Leia it would eventually come out with torture.

 

The only thing I can think of at the moment is that the writers botched it.  Plot holes are common when writing complex narratives, but something so critical to the bridging of episodes 4 and 5 seems like it would be more tightly considered.

 

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4 hours ago, Techwright said:

Something just occurred to me, and it might just be a big, ol' plot hole in episode 4:

  Hide contents

Reva put a tracker in Lola the droid.

 

But why?

 

At the moment she controlled the droid there was no known threat of rescue.  Kenobi was incapacitated at the very least, Leia was secured deep in the bowels of the complex, and Reva was moving towards the torture step.  The first moment Reva is aware Kenobi has infiltrated is when the alarm went off when she was in a different part of the building, away from Leia and the droid.  So why put a tracker in the droid?  If there was info with Leia it would eventually come out with torture.

 

The only thing I can think of at the moment is that the writers botched it.  Plot holes are common when writing complex narratives, but something so critical to the bridging of episodes 4 and 5 seems like it would be more tightly considered.

 

Spoiler

She probably assumes a 10 year old girl who'd only been kidnapped and met her rescuers that week wouldn't be privy to enough information to damage the Path as much as a surprise attack at wherever they escape to would. I assume trying to get info from Leia was mostly performative. She knows Kenobi well enough to know there'll be a rescue attempt.

 

Edited by Mr. Vee
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