Quick Question

[Sakai]

If I have a kismet listed for 3 million and a purchase order for a kismet at 3.5 the purchase order will never be fullfilled?  Something like that?

 

Or is it the reverse?  You can't buy things for more then you are selling them at. That would make more sense. 

 

Except that's not the reverse...it is the exact same thing. 

 

Do how does it work?

Edited March 19, 2022 by Sakai

[Yomo Kimyata]

*whistles awkwardly* Ooh, look!  A cloud!

 

[Sakai]

Hmmm. I think that guy was one toke over the line last night. I think it is best we ignore that post. 

[ScrewlooseCohh]

It think it is easiest to think of them as two separate queues.

 

If your Sell at 3 Mil is sitting and not being filled that means that all the Buy offers you can see are for less than 3 Mil.

 

When someone offers 3 Mill to Buy one then your Sell offer will fill, presuming someone hasn't listed one for 2.99 mill.

 

And if your Buy at 3.5 Mil is sitting and not being filled that means all the items on offer are looking for more than 3.5 Mil.

 

When someone puts one up for sale at 3.5 Mil then your Buy order will fill, if there isn't someone offering 3.51 mil.

 

There really isn't any direct interaction between your Buy and Sell orders, except that your Buy might take one out of the market which might make your Sell the lowest price and therefore the next to Sell.

 

Regards, Screwloose.

“I am not young enough to know everything.”

 

 

[Sakai]

I wonder what AH bug I'm thinking of then. 

[UltraAlt]

On 3/19/2022 at 1:42 AM, Sakai said:

If I have a kismet listed for 3 million and a purchase order for a kismet at 3.5 the purchase order will never be fullfilled?  Something like that?

 

Or is it the reverse?  You can't buy things for more then you are selling them at. That would make more sense. 

 

Except that's not the reverse...it is the exact same thing. 

 

Do how does it work?

 

 

[iBot]

A few of things if OP is still wondering:

1.  I don't believe you can buy or sell to yourself.  I'm not 100% certain if that is account wide or just on the same alt.  But I'm sure others have that exact answer.

2.  Certain items are bucketed on the AH.  Meaning that what looks like a single item to the user is really just a collection of a bunch of them.  Just because you put an item up on the AH doesn't mean it sold as that widget.  This mostly occurs with salvage but can affect IOs as well.

3.  If you want to buy NOW you've got to at least bid above the minimum ask price.  Otherwise you'll need to wait until someone lists one under your bid and no one else is higher than you.  Small numbers are easiest.  If you want an item for 10 but all of them are listed at 15 you'll never get one until someone lists it for 9.  That is unless someone else bids say 12.

4.  Opposite is true of sell NOW.  If you list an item for say 15 but all the bids are 10 you'll not sell that item until someone bids more than that 15.

 

Beyond that there is also a display bug that has been alive since the before times.  This causes the AH to display the incorrect figures for an item.  Sometimes reloading the list can correct for it and other times not.  Best practice is just to use prior knowledge and/or price creep until you hit the golden value for whatever you are trying to do.

[Frozen Burn]

 

10 minutes ago, iBot said:

A few of things if OP is still wondering:

1.  I don't believe you can buy or sell to yourself.  I'm not 100% certain if that is account wide or just on the same alt.  But I'm sure others have that exact answer.

 

Correct, a single character cannot buy what it is selling on the market.  However, another character on the same account can buy what the first character is selling.

 

10 minutes ago, iBot said:

2.  Certain items are bucketed on the AH.  Meaning that what looks like a single item to the user is really just a collection of a bunch of them.  Just because you put an item up on the AH doesn't mean it sold as that widget.  This mostly occurs with salvage but can affect IOs as well.

do.

 

I do not find this to be true.  Please provide specific examples of these unique "bucketed" items.  As this is not the case for invention salvage, recipes, or enhancements. 

 

The slight exception to this is recipes and enhancements have no level when buying on the market - you can post a lvl 30 recipe/enhancement and purchase it at lvl 50 - provided it normally exists at that higher level.  And you can also buy IOs attuned already as well.  So someone can post a crafted lvl 30 Numina's Heal IO and someone can buy it at lvl 50 and already attuned.  But in essence, it is still a Numina's Heal IO...  

 

You cannot post something and it become something else.  A Kinetic Weapon piece of salvage put on the market will always be a Kinetic Weapon piece of salvage until someone buys a Kinetic Weapon piece of salvage - it doesn't turn into a recipe, an IO, or even another piece of salvage.  Same with Recipes and Enhancements.

 

Please explain what you mean by an item is "just a collection of a bunch of them" and "just because you put an item up on the AH doesn't mean it sold as that widget."

 

10 minutes ago, iBot said:

3.  If you want to buy NOW you've got to at least bid above the minimum ask price.  Otherwise you'll need to wait until someone lists one under your bid and no one else is higher than you.  Small numbers are easiest.  If you want an item for 10 but all of them are listed at 15 you'll never get one until someone lists it for 9.  That is unless someone else bids say 12.

4.  Opposite is true of sell NOW.  If you list an item for say 15 but all the bids are 10 you'll not sell that item until someone bids more than that 15.

 

This is not entirely correct.  To "BUY NOW" you have to bid at least the asking price AND more than anyone else.  So you can still "BUY NOW" equal to the asking price, if no one else is bidding or they are bidding for less than the asking price.  

 

A buyer CAN buy the item at asking cost.  They do not have to bid OVER the asking amount. Nor does the seller have to post under the amount.  So if the seller posts for 1000, the buyer can bid 1000 and get the item, provided:  there are no other bids larger and no other bids of equal amount ahead of theirs in the queue.  

 

I attune a lot of IOs through the market for my alts using my other account.  I can post a crafted IO for a random number that I know is not going to instantly sell and then I can use my other account to purchase that same IO at the exact asking price of my first account's posting.  I do not have to bid 1 inf over to get the item. 

 

The reverse is also true.  You do not have to post an item for 1 inf less than the bids for it to sell.  If there are standing bids for an item at 100 inf, you can post for 100 and it will sell to the first person (oldest in queue) who put in the 100 bid, provided there is no one bidding 101 or more.  

[Andreah]

7 hours ago, Frozen Burn said:

You cannot post something and it become something else.  A Kinetic Weapon piece of salvage put on the market will always be a Kinetic Weapon piece of salvage until someone buys a Kinetic Weapon piece of salvage - it doesn't turn into a recipe, an IO, or even another piece of salvage.  Same with Recipes and Enhancements.

 

This is not true.

 

All salvage of the same rarity is bucketed together. Once someone buys any kind of salvage that is the same rarity as you kinetic weapon, if yours is the lowest listed price of any kind of salvage of that rarity, your kinetic weapons will be sold and it will turn into the kind of salvage they bought. This is the essence of what 'bucketed' means.

 

Many other things are bucketed with similar items; for example, all IO's of a kind of any level, but leveled and attuned, share a bucket, and will turn into each other via the market.

[iBot]

What @Andreah said.  I would add that you can list a level 30 IO and it can sell for any valid level of that same IO.  This applies to both the recipe and the crafted version for generic and set IOs.  This is why you see players state to buy lower level recipes in guides because the crafting cost is lower and the item will sell on the AH for the higher price.  Granted this is all about the same named IO.  So a damage IO will never become an accuracy IO.  But a level 10 damage IO can become a level 50 damage IO.

 

Side note: the other reason to buy the lower level recipe is to craft and convert.  Again this has to do with keeping the crafting cost down and because of the bucketing that occurs on the AH.

 

And yes ties do exist but it is generally a better chance if you choose a non-human variant above or below the desired golden price if you want the transaction to occur NOW.  Patience can allow you to play the margins and there are lots of players that make inf by just doing that.  There are players that focus on just sniping low asks by placing odd bids such as 66,632 for a enh converter or 321,998 for rare salvage just to absorb those items when someone dumps a bunch for 1 inf or some such oddness.

[Frozen Burn]

4 hours ago, Andreah said:

This is not true.

 

All salvage of the same rarity is bucketed together. Once someone buys any kind of salvage that is the same rarity as you kinetic weapon, if yours is the lowest listed price of any kind of salvage of that rarity, your kinetic weapons will be sold and it will turn into the kind of salvage they bought. This is the essence of what 'bucketed' means.

 

Many other things are bucketed with similar items; for example, all IO's of a kind of any level, but leveled and attuned, share a bucket, and will turn into each other via the market.

 

Thank you for explaining the "bucketing" theory.  I do realize this is the case with IOs and their levels and attuning/un-attuned - I posted about explaining about those.  

 

However, for salvage, I find this to be the exact opposite of what I experience.  I can put in bids for 3 different types of salvage (same rarity) and sometimes I only get 2.  I let the 3rd wait.  I put in a bid for a 4th type of same rarity at same price and instantly get it... but yet, I still do not have the 3rd piece I wanted.  If what you said was true... I would have gotten that 3rd piece before I got the 4th piece.  

 

Also, I've put in a large bid for a rare salvage piece and not got it, but I let it sit - then I put in a bid for another rare salvage piece at a lower bid than first and got it while still never getting the first piece.  If the "bucketing" system was true, I would have gotten the first piece at the higher price first.  

 

I know the Devs flooded the markets with millions of each type of salvage (albeit, very inflated prices), but why would they do that if there was a "bucketing" / "Converting" system? 

 

I looked for the Dev post / patch notes about them saying they did this bucketing system with salvage, but I am not finding one anywhere - do you know where it is?  I feel like this is all urban-legend and rumor-mill gone wrong.  And if this system truly does exist, then there are several bug reports I need to file.  

[Andreah]

One thing you can do is look at the numbers of listed and for sale of each item. If you do it quickly, you will see they are very similar, if not identical. If you look at the at low activity hours, you'll notice every item of the same rarity has the same number for sale, the same number bid to buy, and the same sales history. If you yourself list fifty at once of a single kind, you will see all of their for-sale counts go up by fifty. 

 

The auction house code is reputed to be a bit squirrely, and it wouldn't surprise me if occasionally sales went out of order, or even ore likely, if you were notified of sales out of order due to the networking code lag. I notice when I switch characters that it can take thirty seconds or more for the auction listings for the new character to refresh.

 

In the past, I flipped salvage for a few days, and I was able to set minimum and maximum price bounds for the entire rare salvage market using just one kind of rare salvage. (I made a little money, but too little for it to be worth while. for the constant checking, bidding and relisting). 

 

I'm sure there's a comprehensive list of which various items are bucketed somewhere.

[Troyusrex]

On 3/19/2022 at 10:25 AM, Yomo Kimyata said:

whistles awkwardly* Ooh, look!  A cloud!

On 3/19/2022 at 5:38 PM, Sakai said:

Hmmm. I think that guy was one toke over the line last night. I think it is best we ignore that post. 

 

Or... he uses that mechanic to his advantage (I believe that in long ago past posts he explained how, but I don't remember off hand) and he's using this to admit there's something there, without going into detail or drawing too much attention to it. 

 

[iBot]

The bucketing of salvage was added by HC at the very beginning so if it is listed anywhere it would be in the first set of patch notes.  The AH on live did not work this way and that is why on live salvage prices could be cornered and manipulated to ridiculous amounts.  Can't do it on HC for a single item.

 

As for the apparent lag with buy/sell orders there is shall we say a less than ideal matching algorithm in use.  I've had plenty of occasions where I will buy a block of 10 pieces and the first say 7 or 8 fill immediately and then a few seconds or even up to 30 sec later the final 2 or 3 fill at the same price point.  That time lag is because the AH was performing an indexing and sort pass.  Remember the AH server runs the AH for all the servers so it crunches through hundreds of thousand if not millions of transactions each pass.  Those aren't insignificant numbers and if your bid happens to be an outlier it can take even longer to find a proper match.  Stack in some good ol interwebs lag and some really odd looking things can occur.

[AboveTheChemist]

I could not locate any patch notes that mentioned bucketing of salvage, but my search was not exhaustive. For those that require proof, the auction house on the beta servers is relatively barren and makes a great place to experiment. With a little inf from the freebies menu and a few minutes of time, it should be easy to see that salvage bucketing works as described.

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 3/21/2022 at 7:46 AM, Troyusrex said:

 

Or... he uses that mechanic to his advantage (I believe that in long ago past posts he explained how, but I don't remember off hand) and he's using this to admit there's something there, without going into detail or drawing too much attention to it. 

 

 

Hey!  What's that over there?!?  

[Bionic_Flea]

1 minute ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Hey!  What's that over there?!?  

Where?

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 minute ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Where?

 

 

[Ukase]

With regards to salvage being seeded and the patch notes: 

It's hidden at the bottom. Here: 

 

Granted, it doesn't specifically mention that a Chronal Skip listed on the AH can suddenly convert to a Psionic Manifestion, or any other rare salvage simply because someone bid a price higher than the chronal skip listed. So, I'm literally poring through the HC Discord to see if I can identify and paste any references to that specifically. 

While I saw nothing in this search effort by a GM or HC Dev, I remember seeing something about it back when it occurred. But, my search-fu is weak. Someone else may have better luck. But, someone did post this, which sums up what was already stated in this thread. 

 

Wish I could be more helpful. 

And it's clear that the AH code can be a bit fussy. It's quite amazing that it works at all, so I'm not complaining. If you're having issues with selling a 3rd rare salvage item, but the 4th rare goes through for the same price, I can only assume there's a mysterious reason for it, but I've no idea what it could be. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 3/21/2022 at 1:02 AM, Frozen Burn said:

 

Thank you for explaining the "bucketing" theory.  I do realize this is the case with IOs and their levels and attuning/un-attuned - I posted about explaining about those.  

 

However, for salvage, I find this to be the exact opposite of what I experience.  I can put in bids for 3 different types of salvage (same rarity) and sometimes I only get 2.  I let the 3rd wait.  I put in a bid for a 4th type of same rarity at same price and instantly get it... but yet, I still do not have the 3rd piece I wanted.  If what you said was true... I would have gotten that 3rd piece before I got the 4th piece.  

 

Also, I've put in a large bid for a rare salvage piece and not got it, but I let it sit - then I put in a bid for another rare salvage piece at a lower bid than first and got it while still never getting the first piece.  If the "bucketing" system was true, I would have gotten the first piece at the higher price first.  

 

I know the Devs flooded the markets with millions of each type of salvage (albeit, very inflated prices), but why would they do that if there was a "bucketing" / "Converting" system? 

 

I looked for the Dev post / patch notes about them saying they did this bucketing system with salvage, but I am not finding one anywhere - do you know where it is?  I feel like this is all urban-legend and rumor-mill gone wrong.  And if this system truly does exist, then there are several bug reports I need to file.  

 

From what I understand of the queue system, if there are many bids that are the best bid (let's say 500k for a rare salvage, any rare salvage) and there are none offered at or below that price, the priority is unclear.  And if you come in with another 100 bids at 500k, it ?randomly? resets the priority.

 

Order of operations is always by exact price.  If two of your bids transact but not the third there may be trades going away at the exact same price.  If you are witnessing trades below your bid, that shouldn't happen and I chalk that up to the display bug, personally. 

[Frozen Burn]

2 hours ago, Ukase said:

With regards to salvage being seeded and the patch notes: 

It's hidden at the bottom. Here: 

 

 

Yeah, I knew about the seeding.  But not about the salvage converting to something else to fill an order.  Thanks for the info you gave and I appreciate you looking for the Dev post, though. 

 

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

From what I understand of the queue system, if there are many bids that are the best bid (let's say 500k for a rare salvage, any rare salvage) and there are none offered at or below that price, the priority is unclear.  And if you come in with another 100 bids at 500k, it ?randomly? resets the priority.

 

Order of operations is always by exact price.  If two of your bids transact but not the third there may be trades going away at the exact same price.  If you are witnessing trades below your bid, that shouldn't happen and I chalk that up to the display bug, personally. 

 

There is definitively something screwy with the queue system.  I've posted a ton of salvage for cheap and they never sell over 2 days despite bids being filled at higher prices - so I chalked it up to display bug and let them sit for another day or 2.  Still didn't sell.  They only sold (and instantly) when I reposted them -- even at the same original selling price!  So, yeah, something definitely screwy.

 

And when purchasing, when I get some and not others, and then get further items and still not the ones I bid on in the middle... I can now see how that could be the queue system messing up -- but I didn't recognize that was the case since it's on a smaller scale as I'm only purchasing 3-4 different items (1 or 2 each) at a time.  So it appears like this "bucketing" things doesn't exist and I'm just waiting on a specific piece of salvage.  

 

Thanks to you, @Andreah, @iBot, @AboveTheChemist, @Yomo Kimyata, and everyone anyone else for the assist in figuring all this out.  UGH!  ...but relieved I now know where to focus my bug reports!  😄 Hahaha. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

3 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

There is definitively something screwy with the queue system.  I've posted a ton of salvage for cheap and they never sell over 2 days despite bids being filled at higher prices - so I chalked it up to display bug and let them sit for another day or 2.  Still didn't sell.  They only sold (and instantly) when I reposted them -- even at the same original selling price!  So, yeah, something definitely screwy.

 

 

This is easy to explain.  The prices that get printed on the Last 5 are the prices that someone bid.

 

Let's say you have 100 common salvage listed for sale at 249.  And you watch hundreds, thousands of salvage trade at 250.  That's crazy!  But that means that hundreds, thousands of salvage were listed at a lower price than yours, and that someone bid 250 for a large amount.

 

The lowest offer on something could be 10mm, and someone could bid 500mm, and the trade would print there.  You can complain all you want for having offered at 490mm, but the fact remains that someone else was offering at a lower price (or the same).

[Frozen Burn]

11 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

This is easy to explain.  The prices that get printed on the Last 5 are the prices that someone bid.

 

Let's say you have 100 common salvage listed for sale at 249.  And you watch hundreds, thousands of salvage trade at 250.  That's crazy!  But that means that hundreds, thousands of salvage were listed at a lower price than yours, and that someone bid 250 for a large amount.

 

The lowest offer on something could be 10mm, and someone could bid 500mm, and the trade would print there.  You can complain all you want for having offered at 490mm, but the fact remains that someone else was offering at a lower price (or the same).

 

I understand this concept.   However, that's not the case....  

I had a ton of common salvage (all random items and random quantities) posted for 100 inf each.  The bid history when I looked over the 2 days they were posted, showed people were buying at 200-500 inf.  Yes, people could have been posting for less, there is a display bug, I was in no rush so I let it stand another day.  But generally, when I post for 100 each they sell within moments or at least overnight.  Never has it taken 3 days to sell common salvage at that price.  So when they hadn't sold on that 3rd day, I took them down and reposted them at 100 each - they immediately sold.  So yeah, something is screwy with the queue system.

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

 

I understand this concept.   However, that's not the case....  

 

 

I understand that you don't think that's the case, but actually it probably is.

 

Now it seems unlikely that you would take them down and repost them and they would insta-sell, but like I said, the queue re-adjusts when new offers or bids come in.  Maybe 100 was the price that many many other salvage was posted at?

 

The fact that it took three days to sell salvage at 100 doesn't necessarily mean that the queue is screwy.  It almost certainly means that you just weren't first in the queue for those three days.

[UltraAlt]

8 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Hey!  What's that over there?!?  

 

It's a bird!

No. Is that a plane!

No there in the water! Is that Aquaman?