Whip-Only Mastermind

[Steampunkette]

So hey. Whips are cool. But petless Masterminds are almost always weak as a blown kiss.

 

Is there any way to make a decent Whips-Only Mastermind? I figure Hasten would be 100% required... but have no idea what else the character would need to be more than useless.

[Zumberge]

Is there any way to make a decent Whips-Only Mastermind?

 

No.

 

_{(I'm not trying to be rude or crush your dreams here, but you said it yourself: Petless MMs are bad.)}

[justicebeliever]

There is however, a thread on making a Whip Powerset -

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php/topic,3541.msg28868.html#msg28868

 

Maybe give it a +1?

[Steampunkette]

I added a correction and some corrections to that thread, actually!

 

And yeah. Thank you! Sorry for the inane thread!

[justicebeliever]

Whoops - didn't noticed you already posted there or I would have not posted here...

[Mjolnerd]

but have no idea what else the character would need to be more than useless.

 

Pets.

 

The character would need pets.

[StrikerFox]

I remember there was player who made a petless MM. Maybe Whips/Traps. He was able to solo Rikti pylons. It wasn't super fast but still very impressive.

[Justisaur]

Whips/Kin and team a lot as a poor excuse for a defender.  No one will care, as you're kin.

[SmalltalkJava]

Whips/Kin and team a lot as a poor excuse for a defender.  No one will care, as you're kin.

 

True dat.  /kin gets groups. 

[Clave Dark 5]

but have no idea what else the character would need to be more than useless.

 

Pets.

 

The character would need pets.

 

Maybe just tell all your pets to sit down in back and not touch anything while you go *snap* a lot with your whip.

[Coyote]

Dark Miasma is a very strong set for soloing, and works fine on teams also. Ditto for Rad. Even with lower MM numbers you'll be able to solo and solo hard content.

 

The problem will be an attack cycle... the whip attacks aren't all that bad for MM attacks, but their Endurance cost is high, and they don't fill out a chain. If you go with the Fighting Pool you can fill out an attack cycle and also use lower-End cost attacks. As long as you're willing to mix the concept of beating people with a fist and then whipping them :p.

 

You might also compromise and run it like a Controller, with just the Demon Prince as a pet. That way you'll still be depending on your attacks for most of your damage, but like Controllers, you'll get one permanent pet to help with damage.

[Pherdnut]

Just make sure all whips can hit in less than 10 seconds eventually to keep all that -res stacked. It's like -28ish from the whips. Whips with hasten and possibly just solid global recharge can keep you attacking without pause in the end game.

I second Miasma as one of the strongest choices. Tarpatch has another -30 res to stack with your whips. The only thing it doesn't do for you is give you the CC protection that FF, Sonic, or Traps would but you can mitigate with break frees and of course, held, mass-feared, mass-stunned enemies throw no CC. It also has an excellent heal linked to a ToHit/-regen debuff with a short recharge. Gets about half my healthbar even though it's a mass heal. Without the ember shield, you should probably focus on getting universal defense up as high as you can even though MMs get screwed on Leadership auras. Two obstacles to overcome will be weak CC protect against all but fear and the endurance cost of the whips and the critical but pretty expensive end/second powers in Miasma.

I'd probably go speed for hasten, jumping for travel and CJ's def bonus, leadership for at least Maneuvers and Tactics even though MMs get screwed on these, and fighting for smash/lethal resists and the additional def bonus. It might be worth maxing out fighting for crosspunch. Keeping that in the mix for an occasional 6 seconds of 100% recharge could get powerful abilities like Howling Twilight off cooldown a lot faster.

For the epic, I think Fire's the way to go. KB to KD in bonfire makes your not-awesome defenses a moot point against most mobs. And of course having another hold and an excellent self res could be really helpful. Fireball with 6 slots probably isn't terrible either.

Traps is probably also a pretty strong choice, but stronger CC/debuff, with a great  heal, and a decent defensive/stealth aura  feels like the way to go with this one.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Pherdnut

[plainguy]

On 6/5/2019 at 6:33 PM, StrikerFox said:

I remember there was player who made a petless MM. Maybe Whips/Traps. He was able to solo Rikti pylons. It wasn't super fast but still very impressive.

I did such a thing and it might have been me your speaking of.

It was a big drawn out debate/fight on the old forums. 

Here is the simple gist. 

And I just seen a few threads and some comments in game.

Masterminds suck. Many people hate them. 

They hate you block the door. They hate you take up space in the small cave.  They hate your pets run off and pull aggro when not needed. ETC.. 

So they hate the pets.. 

But then you have someone asking about a petless Mastermind and You suck because your gimping yourself. 

Unfortunately here is the deal. 

I can't express the amount of crappy builds I have seen on these forums in general. Many people have no clue about defense cap. They see purple sets and they equate that to an I WIN button. 

I literally was on a team with my Robot Traps and I understood why people where leaving. Because one player said " I really don't recall dying this much ever in this game."  

Basically we had a bunch of poorly slotted players.  Brute kept dying because he thought could handle it.  

Not to brag, but I am gonna. 

I have my defenses at 40 at level 36. When I joined the team there buffs brought me up to a whopping 42..  No one had any defense buffs. 

I turned the team around with the simple ability to Provoke and pull aggro off the brute.  

I didn't bother explaining anything to anyone as they just eventually caught the hint when I told them stay within the RED bubble and you will live.

 

So to my point.  

I will not try to debate that not having your pets does reduce your DPS. 

 

But if people could just think rationally for a minute.

I just removed every IO and turned off every self buff. 

If a petless mastermind for example is whip traps and is offering up 26 to all defenses to every player. Plus Perma Triage beacon and a bunch of other debuffs. 

Is that really, really gonna destroy a team doing ITF ? 

Do you really need 8 people to do some thing in this game that is not league size and dependent ? You get what I mean ?

I am 100% sure many people had people on their team at 50 and probably didn't know they where not even IOed out and probably just using SO's. I am sure some people weren't even slotted at times. 

I can tell you with my petless demon pain mastermind I created an alt build with just SOs and unlocked and built up all my incarnate powers. 

 

Someone else just mentioned on this thread, just be a Kin. 

I have a DP Kin. Do you think I ever had to promote myself and DP KIN ? I just KIN LFT and I got one EVERY TIME. It was my fastest run to 50 to date. You think anyone would have rejected me because I was a Dual Pistol Kin ? 

 

I will say this. 

You can't be petless and just totally suck.  You have to bring something to the table. 

 

But if you know how to create a build and can be defense capped and can handle your own on a 1/8 to 4/8 setting I do not honestly see the issue when I see Tanks, Brutes and Scrappers faceplanting every night.

Again yes I understand your loosing DPS with no pets.. I get it. But with the amount of sucky players in the game with utterly shitty builds don't zero in on the petless mastermind because he stands out as the guy with whips and no pets.

And if your doing it clearly shows you have no clue on about game mechanics and just trolling or talking out of your backside. 

 

Further You could get the pets for IO sets but just never summon them.  

Again I am defense capped without my pets but yes I use them with my robot traps. 

 

Demon Storm build. Range defense capped. Midway Melee and AOE, not that it matters because PBAOE is Melee and Ranged AOE is Ranged. So AOE is a moot point. But regardless.  Hurricane which is melee range has a to hit debuff that defense caps both Melee and PBAOE. 

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Edited July 25, 2019 by plainguy

[plainguy]

Dark is not gonna get you the defense numbers you need even with the Hit debuff. Plus you need anchors and its not exact between the anchor having the Hit Debuff and you getting hit. There is a delay. So you will get hit before the debuffs kick in. 

Further Whips at low levels is VERY high on Endurance.  

End result Traps is the easiest and safest way to go.

Just swap out My Robot Traps build posted in another thread with demons and you are good to go. You could even provoke as well. 

 

[plainguy]

On 6/5/2019 at 6:07 PM, justicebeliever said:

There is however, a thread on making a Whip Powerset -

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php/topic,3541.msg28868.html#msg28868

 

Maybe give it a +1?

Actually there is even ANOTHER Thread with whips that breaks down all the different attack types as there is a common theme to every power set. 

 

And I found it

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by plainguy

[Pherdnut]

Why do you have to be defense capped for it be viable?

[plainguy]

8 hours ago, Pherdnut said:

Why do you have to be defense capped for it be viable?

Depending on your arch type it helps you survive.  E.g. Blaster would go range defense. 

 

If your dead all the time it's noticeable especially when your a certain arch like tank, brute or scrapper. 

 

In this instance of the discussion many people dislike masterminds. 

 

Several players who play masterminds also help perpetuate this hatred.

 

When I join a team thank them profusely  and make it clear I will stay out of the way with the pets.  Not gonna kill me to kowtow.  

 

So now add in now we are talking petless mastermind.  

 

Imagine  Now you are not defense capped and your doing less damage and you're dying just like the storm red trooper they could have brought on to the team. 

 

You basically need to show the team holy cow this player can handle themselves 

[Pherdnut]

8 minutes ago, plainguy said:

Imagine  Now you are not defense capped and your doing less damage and you're dying just like the storm red trooper they could have brought on to the team.

Okay but now imagine the enemy is some combination of mass-stunned, area slowed twice, -recharged 50%, -damaged, -ToHit, mass-feared -ToHitted again, -res 30-58%, -regenned at 50-550%, and everybody is getting a  regular 420+ mass heal as you regularly spam the -ToHit -50% regen debuff on a short recharge, because 30+ def is pretty good when the enemy is debuffed to the nine hells.

[plainguy]

10 minutes ago, Pherdnut said:

Okay but now imagine the enemy is some combination of mass-stunned, area slowed twice, -recharged 50%, -damaged, -ToHit, mass-feared -ToHitted again, -res 30-58%, -regenned at 50-550%, and everybody is getting a  regular 420+ mass heal as you regularly spam the -ToHit -50% regen debuff on a short recharge, because 30+ def is pretty good when the enemy is debuffed to the nine hells.

Yes but I go back to my last few sentences.  

 

Mind you I agree with you.

 

But perception is all that matters.  You are talking about some dense people here.  

 

They will see they have someone with a secondary but lacking a lot of their primary.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you can get defense cap without gimping yourself I would.  It just adds another layer of bonus on your end because they are just seeing they could have gotten another dark set player with More primary powers thus more dps that can do the same as you.  

 

Further regardless of the powers sets, some sets are just not that Conducive to getting or obtaining the defense cap you need.  

 

You already have a few strikes against you as a mastermind let alone a petless mastermind.  

 

Look I am working on that build. 

I could have went traps again but I wanted to try a different  challenge.

 

I'm at level 23 and just slotted  IOS.  So let me see how it rolls.  

 

I am also thinking of just starting a petless mastermind Sunday's type of run.  

 

I also need to do a dps comparison of whips to other attacks to see how bad they are. I also took the mystic attack as a 4th attack. 

[kelly Rocket]

I've never actually met these mythical people who hate Masterminds. I'm generally welcomed onto teams quite eagerly.

[Justisaur]

21 hours ago, Pherdnut said:

Just make sure all whips can hit in less than 10 seconds eventually to keep all that -res stacked. It's like -28ish from the whips. Whips with hasten and possibly just solid global recharge can keep you attacking without pause in the end game.
 

Whips/Kin again, most of your buffs/debuffs are attacks, so you just fill in with whips, and the whips will recharge 50% faster after you hit siphon speed.  I'm tempted to make one myself now, really how different is that from a kin/sonic defender?  Sure the -resist is a bit less, and your leadership isn't as good, but no one bothered me about it on my controller or corruptor kins, and I need to use kin so much on groups, that I rarely get to use the primary attacks anyway.  ou'll have plenty of room to put in kick/tough/weave too, and whatever other pool powers you want, sorcery perhaps.  If you don't mind having other attacks, go ahead and get all the fighting attacks.  Pick up presense for the fear, that'll let you drain your victims in peace solo.  I'd probably still throw in hell on earth, as they're small and you don't need to/can't direct them, so not entirely petless.

 

Time would probably work even better as you eventually get some of that sweet recharge, and you get all those buffs/slows/debuffs to make it easier to deal with mobs, but time doesn't have quite the same appeal to groups as kins for some reason.

[plainguy]

31 minutes ago, kelly Rocket said:

I've never actually met these mythical people who hate Masterminds. I'm generally welcomed onto teams quite eagerly.

No they are out there. It's not some fantasy in my head. Just bring up the topic in help and you will hear the words. I already been part of the public discussion about masterminds once in game. 

 

At my age I have zero reason to make anything up.  I don't need forum muscles.  

 

[kelly Rocket]

Well it's weird, as I play mostly Masterminds, Brutes, and Controller/Defenders. Leaning more towards Masterminds than anything else. And I've literally never, not even once, been denied a team for being a Mastermind. I've even been greeted more than once when joining a team with "Oh thank GOD, a Mastermind!", on a team that needed more Support, or more damage, or both.

 

Really there's very little reason to dislike Masterminds on your team, as they bring support, damage, and some tanking abilities.

 

Admittedly some people build them badly, because they're focused on soloing, but you won't see those guys teaming a lot.

[Pherdnut]

@Plainguy, I thought we were talking about viable though, not perception, but I agree with a lot of your points to that end. I'd just rather have a convo about all the ways a whips-only demon MM can actually get through challenging content at least slowly. 'Cuz that's how we learn new stuff about MMs from each other. IMO, any group leader that knows Miasma, should be as excited to hear about that as they are kin, regardless of what kind of foolishness was visited on whatever other set a player might have.

Mostly I'm curious to hear what other secondaries might work for whips-only MM that actually synergize with the OP's mission which I think is whipping the crap out of stuff without totally sucking(?)

Sonic's probably a good one for demons I think but without minions it loses one of its sources of -res and any buffs you select are no good for you while soloing. Still, an almost universal res bubble with a -res debuff, protection from the most annoying CC, and a whole lot of picks left over for pool powers... that could be an interesting if not the best possible choice.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Pherdnut

[SmalltalkJava]

There is a long distance between min and max.   And from what I’ve seen capping defenses or being close to cap goes a long ways to helping your group succeed. You stop being a hp heal sink and dead weight to being able to contribute.  - this is why most groups actually fail. 

 

If if you read the corruptor and defender boards they talk about Ice blast using a 3 attack rotation at peak recharge speeds.       So a petless MM could do the same thing not at such high levels but it would still be functionally useful and even highly successful.   You could through in the sorcerer Blast or even air superiority.  (If air supp can still dribble mobs, I haven’t used it in a while).

 

So if you want a petless MM do these three things.

 

1.  At the bare minimum do yourself a favor and find a way to cap your defenses.  

2. After that use your secondary

3.  Then hit 1,2,3 repeatedly to use your attacks

 

Do those things and stuff  will work out fine.  As a matter of fact it will be highly successful.