Illusion's group invisibility - Does attacking something permanently cancel the invisibility?

[EnjoyTheJourney]

As per the subject line ...

 

If group invisibility returns somebody to an invisible state after the usual cooldown period following an attack or other action that would cancel invisibility or stealth, then it's a good substitute for the personal invisibility toggle. If the first attack made cancels the invisibility for the remainder of the spell's duration and only the suppressed defense total remains, then it's not as appealing. 

[oedipus_tex]

I'm going  to admit that even after all these years I'm not sure.

 

Several of the attribs in Group Invisibility have "cancel event" flags for Attacked, HitByFoe, and MissionObjectClick.  I'm not sure if these cancel the effect permanently or just for the duration of the flag. 

 

This bears testing.

Edited April 11, 2022 by oedipus_tex

[Carnifax]

It's the same as any other stealth. After a few seconds the flags clear and your Stealth and Def go back up. 

 

Always has been afaik, I've always used Group over Superior since i4 or i5. 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Thank you for weighing in. 

 

After reflecting on how to test this, I made an illusion character on the beta server, set their level to 12, took group invisibility, and tested out whether or not group invisibility would keep returning characters to a fully invisible state after the flag clears. 

 

Test results suggest quite clearly that Carnifax is correct. Group invisibility confers invisibility that returns again and again until its duration expires. 

 

Come to think of it, I should have set things up so that base defense was visible the entire time  to ensure that the defense bonus changes along with the invisible - or - not - invisible status changes. I'll probably do that this evening. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by EnjoyTheJourney

[Carnifax]

Group Invis is basically "Hey, have stealth for 2 mins" in terms of magnitude and effects. You can monitor both Def and Stealth Radius to see it supress and kick back in. 

 

Like I said I've always taken ahead of Superior, simply because I've always been able to layer it with Steamy Mist on Live and Shadow Fall on Homecoming. You end up with the same amount of Stealth but slightly better Def figures, better resists and lots of spots for mules / uniques. In terms of End usage Group is much easier on the Blue bar too. 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

13 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

Group Invis is basically "Hey, have stealth for 2 mins" in terms of magnitude and effects. You can monitor both Def and Stealth Radius to see it supress and kick back in. 

 

Like I said I've always taken ahead of Superior, simply because I've always been able to layer it with Steamy Mist on Live and Shadow Fall on Homecoming. You end up with the same amount of Stealth but slightly better Def figures, better resists and lots of spots for mules / uniques. In terms of End usage Group is much easier on the Blue bar too. 

There's a bit of confusion, at least on my part, about what group invisibility does.

 

Can group invisibility stack with a stealth IO in sprint to provide full invisibility and/or does it provide full invisibility on its own? Alternatively, is superior invisibility markedly "superior" to regular invisibility (ie: like the kind the concealment pool provides)?

Edited April 11, 2022 by EnjoyTheJourney

[oedipus_tex]

That's interesting that live power attributes suppress for a period of time and then return. I wouldn't have guessed one way or the other that that is how it would work. Most sources of invisibility are toggles. With those, the effect recasts itself so quickly that the invisibility and defense come back on line just because of the refresh rate of the attribute. 

 

3 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

There's a bit of confusion, at least on my part, about what group invisibility does.

 

Can group invisibility stack with a stealth IO in sprint to provide full invisibility and/or does it provide full invisibility on its own? Alternatively, is superior invisibility markedly "superior" to regular invisibility (ie: like the kind the concealment pool provides)?

 

 

I believe Group Invisibility stacks with all other sources of Stealth, including Group Invisibility cast by other Illusionists. There aren't a whole lot of situations where it comes into play, although possibly it could matter in PVP.

 

Stealth toggles like Superior Invisibility can't be run with powers like stealth auras like Steamy Mist, etc. That's one of the few situations in this game where powers in a player's primary and secondary can't be combined at all. I'll be honest, I don't think Superior Invisibility does anything that should lock you out of using it with those powers. Group Invisibility should still work, tho.

[Riverdusk]

Not sure if it has changed, but the most annoying part of group invis to me was always that when you recast it, even before it expires, it makes you visible again for a second.  Just long enough that you get seen.  So, you basically have to go hide in a corner somewhere before you can recast it if you care about being seen.   

 

7 hours ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

There's a bit of confusion, at least on my part, about what group invisibility does.

 

Can group invisibility stack with a stealth IO in sprint to provide full invisibility and/or does it provide full invisibility on its own? Alternatively, is superior invisibility markedly "superior" to regular invisibility (ie: like the kind the concealment pool provides)?

 

As to the numbers, group invis provides 60 feet of stealth pve which is "full invisibility" on its own.  Superior invis provides 200 feet, but I think the only time that much comes into play is with the few sniper mobs there are or maybe in PvP (of which I know pretty much nothing about).   Some mobs see through stealth no matter how much you have.

 

Looks like neither suppress their stealth when you attack (just like shadowfall, steamy mist, and arctic fog).  You can monitor that with "stealth radius PvE" in combat attributes and see that it doesn't go away when you attack, unlike a lot of other stealth powers.  The group you attack will still "see you", but it makes it very nice in helping to avoid aggro of a second unconnected group.  Not even stalker's hide power has that feature (wish it did).  Clicking a glowie will still fully suppress it though.

 

 

[Doomguide2005]

     One little side note about GI and many other stealth-type powers.

 

     Be careful in Aeon Strike Force especially in the newer hard difficulty levels.   While 60ft is plenty on most maps many of the mobs have an improved base perception of 66ft making maps with tight quarters troublesome.   At 6ft distance such a mob will note your presence.

[capricorpse]

wow I didn't realize group invisibility was such a good stand-in for the toggle!  I haven't tried some of the famous combos (ill/storm and ill/dark) because of the stealth redundancy.

 

i will note also that besides the stealth distance (which was news to me) I think the "Superior" part of Superior Invisibility refers to the fact that for most of the game's lifetime, it was the only true invisibility toggle that allowed you to attack with it on.  The old version of Invisibility from the Concealment pool had an "only affect self" status pinned to it.  extremely inferior invisibility lol

[oedipus_tex]

On 4/11/2022 at 5:27 PM, Riverdusk said:

As to the numbers, group invis provides 60 feet of stealth pve which is "full invisibility" on its own.  Superior invis provides 200 feet, but I think the only time that much comes into play is with the few sniper mobs there are or maybe in PvP (of which I know pretty much nothing about).   Some mobs see through stealth no matter how much you have.

 

 

There are a few enemy powersets in the AE that provide +Perception. Not sure if any enemies in the core game also have it. I can't remember which sets specifically have it, but I think there may be some in Willpower and Super Reflexes. I've given members of those enemy groups +Perception in order to make the map more challenging. Super Invisibility can still slip through, though, unless the enemy has tons of +Perception stacked from some power like Clear Mind.

[Uun]

At higher levels (35+) the Resistance all have Targeting Drone. Primarily in Praetoria, but they do show up in Maria Jenkins arc. Their aggro range is ridiculous.