Willpower Tanks, Weedy Taunters?

[Herotu]

I've been reading about how useless WP tankers are and wanted extra feedback. My L50 WP/SS feels pretty good, but I don't want to commit to incarnate gubbins if I know there's a better way and no amount of fancy doodads is going to get me there.

 

So I need to know whether to cut loose now and rebuild this toon with better powersets or commit to it and own this tiny taunt aura business. Any support or advice would be appreciated. Thank you.

[Heraclea]

The absolute value of any AT on a given team is not terribly necessary.  That said, with the coming of especially Bio Armor I'm not sure that Willpower is all that great as a team main tanker powerset.  I wuldn't want to be Willpower on a team with seven fire blasters.  Odds are your pickup team won't be that. 

 

The value of Willpower as a set is also challenged by the availability of Bio Armor as a tanker set.  AFAIK there is no issue with its taunt aura.  Bio also gets easy endurance relief, available at level one rather than 20.  Endurance relief was always the main selling point of WP IMO.  Then again, WP doesn't make your character look like Pigpen.

 

OTOH the availability of Spines as a tanker attack set is a game changer for WP.  I would imagine that a WP tanker running uils would not be hindered by a weak taunt aura.  My Spines/WP scrapper from 2012 was an adequate main tank for full teams. 

 

 

 

 

[jack_nomind]

So I need to know whether to cut loose now and rebuild this toon with better powersets or commit to it and own this tiny taunt aura business. Any support or advice would be appreciated. Thank you.

 

As a tanker, your job is very rarely to perform AoE mob control (since every support AT can do that job better, and mob groups very often exceed the aggro cap anyway) and very often to perform specific mob control (AVs, EBs, and runners).

 

I like taunt auras because I'm lazy, but they're no substitute for Gauntlet and the actual secondary Taunt.  By corollary, Gauntlet and the actual secondary Taunt can be sufficient regardless of aura -- particularly since as an /SS, you're almost certainly building for +rech anyway.

 

You probably do want to slot your actual Taunt for further recharge and for duration.  Since it's auto-hit and tends to have a high base duration, it's much more reliable than counting purely on Gauntlet.  But in answer to your question... with the right build, WP/SS is fine for endgame.

[Redlynne]

So long as you put 2 Common 50 Taunt IOs into Rise to the Challenge, the aura will sustain aggro magnet attraction for over 2 seconds per activation and thereby stack with itself much more reliably.  That then leaves the other 4 slots in Rise to the Challenge open for whatever else you want to put into it.

[marcussmythe]

The absolute value of any AT on a given team is not terribly necessary.  That said, with the coming of especially Bio Armor I'm not sure that Willpower is all that great as a team main tanker powerset.  I wuldn't want to be Willpower on a team with seven fire blasters.  Odds are your pickup team won't be that. 

 

The value of Willpower as a set is also challenged by the availability of Bio Armor as a tanker set.  AFAIK there is no issue with its taunt aura.  Bio also gets easy endurance relief, available at level one rather than 20.  Endurance relief was always the main selling point of WP IMO.  Then again, WP doesn't make your character look like Pigpen.

 

OTOH the availability of Spines as a tanker attack set is a game changer for WP.  I would imagine that a WP tanker running uils would not be hindered by a weak taunt aura.  My Spines/WP scrapper from 2012 was an adequate main tank for full teams.

 

On the flip, Bio is more management intensive than WP - and in the chaos of an 8 man team with an accidental double (or triple!) pull, I find on my own Bio that I dont always have sufficient brain to keep the Freak Tank that just self-rezzed from eating my backfield while also remembering to click to not die. 

 

Now, no doubt other people can manage it just fine - but as I come back into this game from a long break from MMOs and time spent playing ‘be hyper-focused and hyper-competent or the raid wipes’ MMOs before that... Im more and more aware of the limits of my ability to focus on all the things and execute at the same time.

 

Which is to say that WP, or similar low management sets, may have advantages in the tanking role that can help mitigate a less-powerful taunt aura - they have more attention to see the whole board with.  I also wonder if this is behind Invuln’s old reputation as a gold standard aggro magnet - a great taunt aura -plus- little care and feeding.  Though everything I hear suggests that Ice is even -better-, it may be harder to do this with Ice due to that aggro management being active rather than passive?  (Cannot say - have not played Ice Armor)

[Redlynne]

I also wonder if this is behind Invuln’s old reputation as a gold standard aggro magnet - a great taunt aura -plus- little care and feeding.  Though everything I hear suggests that Ice is even -better-, it may be harder to do this with Ice due to that aggro management being active rather than passive?  (Cannot say - have not played Ice Armor)

 

Ice Armor is a "set and forget" primary, aside from Energy Absorption, and Ice/* has TWO auras that attract attention ... Chilling Embrace and Icicles ... not just one.

[marcussmythe]

I also wonder if this is behind Invuln’s old reputation as a gold standard aggro magnet - a great taunt aura -plus- little care and feeding.  Though everything I hear suggests that Ice is even -better-, it may be harder to do this with Ice due to that aggro management being active rather than passive?  (Cannot say - have not played Ice Armor)

 

Ice Armor is a "set and forget" primary, aside from Energy Absorption, and Ice/* has TWO auras that attract attention ... Chilling Embrace and Icicles ... not just one.

 

It may just be that Ice is much less common, so few people have teamed with one/with a good one.

 

I wonder how sticky Dark Armor can be made - 3 toggle auras...

[jack_nomind]

Taunt probably doesn't stack additively or multiplicatively from the same caster (or, therefore, from the same power).  Only the longest duration (likely) applies.

 

Although now we have the code so I suppose we could finally solve the mystery.

[Heraclea]

It may just be that Ice is much less common, so few people have teamed with one/with a good one.

 

I wonder how sticky Dark Armor can be made - 3 toggle auras...

 

Ice is also one of the graphically challenging armors, like Stone, Dark, or Fire.  I don't think there;s a 'minimal' option.  As such it puts a crimp on creativity, and that's always an issue with the game.

[Blastit]

It may just be that Ice is much less common, so few people have teamed with one/with a good one.

 

I wonder how sticky Dark Armor can be made - 3 toggle auras...

 

Ice is also one of the graphically challenging armors, like Stone, Dark, or Fire.  I don't think there;s a 'minimal' option.  As such it puts a crimp on creativity, and that's always an issue with the game.

 

Ice actually does have a minimal FX option! You get a gentle frosty coating instead of the giant ice-cubes. There's still noticeable Stuff on your dude so it isn't Willpower or anything but a lot less obscuring than fire or stone armours.

[Garthamatic]

I've been enjoying Ice/Spines. Having two damage auras plus Chilling Embrace is fantastic for gathering clumps of enemies. The slow/-recharge effects also stack nicely...

[Call Me Awesome]

It's possible that Willpower's taunt aura has changed but it used to have an extremely short duration; around 1-2 seconds if I recall and it was only Magnitude 3.  As a comparison the taunt aura of Invuln had a duration of around 17 seconds (don't have Mid's in front of me) and was Magnitude 4.  Because of this Invuln had a VASTLY easier time holding aggro, since it didn't wear off the instant the mob moved a few feet away from you.  When Willpower was ported to tankers we thought the terrible taunt aura was a bug as every other tanker primary had a Magnitude 4 taunt aura lasting at least 14 seconds.

 

Personally I never played a Willpower tanker as it was the absolute worst at aggro management by a huge margin.  I did have a Willpower brute but I didn't try to play it as a tanker.  If I was on a team with a willpower tank I had to be careful as I could strip aggro from him with ease.  I almost never teamed with one who could hold aggro well... and I rarely teamed with another primary that couldn't hold aggro.  Ice tankers had such a lock on aggro that it was almost impossible to steal it from them no matter what they or I did.

[BelleSorciere]

I also wonder if this is behind Invuln’s old reputation as a gold standard aggro magnet - a great taunt aura -plus- little care and feeding.  Though everything I hear suggests that Ice is even -better-, it may be harder to do this with Ice due to that aggro management being active rather than passive?  (Cannot say - have not played Ice Armor)

 

Ice Armor is a "set and forget" primary, aside from Energy Absorption, and Ice/* has TWO auras that attract attention ... Chilling Embrace and Icicles ... not just one.

 

It may just be that Ice is much less common, so few people have teamed with one/with a good one.

 

I wonder how sticky Dark Armor can be made - 3 toggle auras...

 

You probably wouldn't want Oppressive Gloom to hold aggro as stunned minions will wander away.

[jack_nomind]

You probably wouldn't want Oppressive Gloom to hold aggro as stunned minions will wander away.

 

OG and CoF are intended to work together; neither is a particularly good mez on their own, but cooperatively they lock minions in place.

[BelleSorciere]

You probably wouldn't want Oppressive Gloom to hold aggro as stunned minions will wander away.

 

OG and CoF are intended to work together; neither is a particularly good mez on their own, but cooperatively they lock minions in place.

 

I've only played DA on a scrapper for eight years, and on a brute for a few years less, so I might be missing something, but in my attempts to use OG and CoF together, what I saw was stunned mobs would wander away and the fear and stun would wear off. While I was able to keep moving to keep them mezzed, I never saw much value to using both in most circumstances. Exceptions being, say, fighting an elite boss with a ton of minions nearby. The two mezzes don't really synergize.

 

Also, Cloak of Fear's other benefit, esp against bosses, AVs, etc. is the to-hit debuff. Unfortunately, it's not a massive debuff, but it still helps.

 

Anyway, Death Shroud + Cloak of Fear makes a decent combination to taunt everything around you without loose stunned minions wandering off in random directions.

[jack_nomind]

I've only played DA on a scrapper for eight years, and on a brute for a few years less, so I might be missing something, but in my attempts to use OG and CoF together, what I saw was stunned mobs would wander away and the fear and stun would wear off.

 

I haven't been playing over the past seven of the last eight years, but that isn't what should be happening; if the terror lands, the mob should be rooted and unable to attack for five seconds.  They would then (because they're presumably taking damage from Death Shroud so the terror will break) ordinarily be able to attack and move, but the stun is supposed to lock down the attack part and the cycle repeats as CoF ticks again.  Even in the best case, it's an "if" because of the miserable base tohit of CoF.  But if it is hitting, and they're moving while under an ongoing terror effect, then something is buggy.

 

...With all that being said, I'm dropping OG on my DA/ tanker, so my defense of it is halfhearted at best.

[BelleSorciere]

I've only played DA on a scrapper for eight years, and on a brute for a few years less, so I might be missing something, but in my attempts to use OG and CoF together, what I saw was stunned mobs would wander away and the fear and stun would wear off.

 

I haven't been playing over the past seven of the last eight years, but that isn't what should be happening; if the terror lands, the mob should be rooted and unable to attack for five seconds.  They would then (because they're presumably taking damage from Death Shroud so the terror will break) ordinarily be able to attack and move, but the stun is supposed to lock down the attack part and the cycle repeats as CoF ticks again.  Even in the best case, it's an "if" because of the miserable base tohit of CoF.  But if it is hitting, and they're moving while under an ongoing terror effect, then something is buggy.

 

...With all that being said, I'm dropping OG on my DA/ tanker, so my defense of it is halfhearted at best.

 

I meant 2004 to 2012, and I also meant, really, that I haven't done a DA tanker, so I admit there may be something I'm missing here.

 

That said, my prior experience in the previously live game was that fear doesn't prevent stunned mobs from wandering.

[jack_nomind]

That said, my prior experience in the previously live game was that fear doesn't prevent stunned mobs from wandering.

 

Original Afraid (all pre-i3 Fear) didn't; Terror (most post-i3 Fear) is complicated but is supposed to root an enemy temporarily.  I think I was mistaken about a couple things in my earlier post, though.  The cycle duration is supposed to be 10s, not 5, the mob has a chance to move for one cycle instead of attacking in response to an attack, and the fear might be able to 'break' (permit an attack or movement) at the beginning of a cycle rather than the end as I had believed and indicated.  Not sure about the last part, but if so, it would definitely explain why they often wander out of your OG.

[BelleSorciere]

Yeah, just tested OG + CoF, and you're right - they get the one action every 10 seconds that allows them to stagger around, they cower, repeat.

[zane.bondi]

I am maining a WP/Rad tanker (currently 44) AMA.

 

But in all seriousness, RttC does definitely require constant attention on who it is currently aggroing. I do find it quite challenging to maintain aggro on mobs of 10+ if I start slacking off. Most of the time I'll soak alpha, do my tank thing, then turn around to taunt the stragglers that want to bum rush my team. Like others have said here it's definitely not the set and forget tanker primary for holding aggro. In some ways I actually enjoy the small minigame of juggling aggro and keeping the squishes safe.