EHP Calculations

[KaiOte]

I've been doing a ton of research trying to nail down exactly what kind of tanker I want to play. Thanks to my StJ stalker I no longer am looking into damage, I've got that type of character covered. While reasonable damage would be nice on the tanker given its better aoe what I've settled on is trying to make a tanker that is as indestructible as possible. While doing the research I came across a thread comparing SR to invuln on its effective health pools. The discussion made it quite clear, even more than was previously thought that all powers are not the same. Iirc invuln was something approximating 5x as durable. While invuln is likely the best choice for the tanker im setting out to build I'm here to petition those who understand the complex formulary involved with this game:

 

What is each power's EHP at full health?

What is each power's EHP at its optimal/suboptimal setting? (SR ehp goes up as it loses health at certain resistance levels, WP gets massive regen when surrounded)

What is each power's EHP/sec? (Regen might play the biggest factor in this distinction)

What is each power's worst ehp scenario and what is its ehp at that time? (Invuln when encountering psi is likely to have lower ehp than willpower)

What is the best secondary to compliment primary ehp? (MA might compliment WP better than invuln seeing as it helps shore up def with one of its abilities)

When fully IOd does the EHP meaningfully change versus what it was capable of at just reaching 50 with SOs in relation to the other powersets? (Invuln when IOd can plug that psi hole quite effectively and reduce its primary weakness)

 

I want to eliminate from the equation any of the special gimmicks a particular power may produce such as damage auras, or self debuffs that dont directly affect tankiness. This post is here for pure survivability, not utility or dps, so yes even stone could be strongly considered in this situation. In broader play these gimmicks wildly change the usefulness of powersets but at what cost/benefit? Knowing a far more accurate survivability can help understand the justification for taking those specific gimmicks over pure survivability. If stone is only just barely tankier than invuln then it can be disregarded in the broader tank conversation but if its leaps and bounds over invuln then it might be worth bearing with the debuffs. In my research I didn't come across any post that singularly could answer these questions so I was hoping that this post may consolidate that information that is spread across the forum. I realize that not everything to do with tankers is just being hard to kill, but it is an important aspect in the tankers relationship with the other ATs. This is a lot to ask but I hope by asking those who are knowledgeable in the game and likely have already made excel spreadsheets about this, we may find something a bit more definitive, or at least updated so it is easier to understand how to leverage the tanker's inherent value.

 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by KaiOte

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, KaiOte said:

I've been doing a ton of research

 

here's a thought.

Make one of several different kinds and see what you enjoy playing.

 

I would always suggest building any character upon character conception.

Why is your character in Paragon City?

How did they get their powers?

Why do they have the kinds of powers that they have?

What would make them fun for you to play?

 

I mean, really, you can struggle to make a cookie-cutter OP tank, but, if you don't enjoy playing it (because you don't feel a connection to the character), is the fun really only about being the cookie-cutter OP tank?

 

You can make more characters then you will ever have a chance to play.

Make a bunch and see what you like best.

Some of the sets/builds that don't mathematically yield the highest numbers can be way more fun to play than the cookie-cutter OP one.

[KaiOte]

Not to dismiss you outright but I already have one of those as a tanker. The point of gathering this information is to better perform in a team to tackle things like 801 and any future content of the sort. Sure I have plenty of heroes I like to play, i love my fire/regen sent for example, but not all of those heroes can or will make the cut for the absolute hardest things I can throw at them. By petitioning for this info I can make something that isn't cookie cutter while also being top of the line.

Edited June 7, 2022 by KaiOte

[Snarky]

Just run the Invulnerability.   That will be your conclusion in the end.  Save yourself days weeks months years of spreadsheet navel gazing

 

Get a Hyperstrike build and TANK

[Gobbledigook]

22 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Just run the Invulnerability.   That will be your conclusion in the end.  Save yourself days weeks months years of spreadsheet navel gazing

 

Get a Hyperstrike build and TANK

Or just any competent Tanker build. They all tank very well.

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 hours ago, KaiOte said:

i love my fire/regen sent

 

For a second there I thought you completely mad until my brain registered the "sent" part of the post.

[Senkan]

Ya know...some people have different reasons for playing this game. Min-maxers are a part of the community. If someone comes on a forum and asks for help don't you think it's better to offer help or just not respond instead of directing that person to do what you want to do or think should be done?  That's making his/her game experience worse not better.

[MoisesG]

Nerf Regen!

[Xandyr]

I know this is from last year, but to the OP...I feel like you also need to factor in your secondary power set.

 For example, /Dark will debuff your enemies' To Hit, plus has a heal. Staff can increase your defense and add resistance as well.

 

 I built my WP/Staff for max HP and max regen. If memory serves me correctly,  when RttC is fully saturated,  I hit well over 225 hp/sec. With soft capped f/c/e/ne defenses.

 

 Most people will say that a stone tank running Granite is the "tankiest", followed by Invuln. I say, choose what fits your theme/concept and run with it.

 Of all my tanks, and I have a LOT, I enjoy my WP/Staff the most. Probably my 2nd favorite is Bio/Rad.

[JavaMonk]

3 hours ago, Xandyr said:

I know this is from last year, but to the OP...I feel like you also need to factor in your secondary power set.

 For example, /Dark will debuff your enemies' To Hit, plus has a heal. Staff can increase your defense and add resistance as well.

 

 I built my WP/Staff for max HP and max regen. If memory serves me correctly,  when RttC is fully saturated,  I hit well over 225 hp/sec. With soft capped f/c/e/ne defenses.

 

 Most people will say that a stone tank running Granite is the "tankiest", followed by Invuln. I say, choose what fits your theme/concept and run with it.

 Of all my tanks, and I have a LOT, I enjoy my WP/Staff the most. Probably my 2nd favorite is Bio/Rad.

I am currently working on a WP/Staff concept.  I don't suppose you'd be willing to share your build?

[Xandyr]

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.4.7
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Willpower
Secondary Power Set: Staff Fighting
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(A), NmnCnv-Heal(3), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(9), Prv-Absorb%(11), Prv-Heal(11), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(13)
Level 1: Mercurial Blow -- PndSlg-Acc/Dmg(A), PndSlg-Dmg/EndRdx(13), PndSlg-Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 2: Mind Over Body -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(15)
Level 4: Fast Healing -- NmnCnv-Heal(A), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(5), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(5), Mrc-Rcvry+(7), Mrc-Heal(7), RgnTss-Regen+(9)
Level 6: Indomitable Will -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 8: Rise to the Challenge -- NmnCnv-Heal(A), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(15), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(17), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(17), NmnCnv-EndRdx/Rchg(19), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(19)
Level 10: Guarded Spin -- SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(39), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(40), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 12: Quick Recovery -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 14: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Eye of the Storm -- SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(36), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(37), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(37), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 18: Heightened Senses -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def(21), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(21), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(23)
Level 20: Staff Mastery 
Level 22: Tough -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(23), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(34), ImpSki-Status(34)
Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def(25), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(25), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(33)
Level 26: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(27), ShlWal-Def(27), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(33), Rct-ResDam%(33)
Level 28: Tactics -- GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(29), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(29), GssSynFr--Build%(31), GssSynFr--ToHit(31), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(34)
Level 30: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 32: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 35: Innocuous Strikes -- Arm-Dam%(A), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(40), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Arm-Dmg(42), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(42), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 38: Sky Splitter -- SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(43), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(43), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45)
Level 41: Gloom -- Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(46), Apc-Acc/Rchg(46)
Level 44: Darkest Night -- DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb(A), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(46)
Level 47: Serpent's Reach -- Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Apc-Dmg(48), Apc-Dam%(50)
Level 49: Super Jump -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal(A), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(31), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(36), Pnc-Heal/+End(48), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(48), NmnCnv-Heal(50)
Level 2: Stamina -- PwrTrns-+Heal(A), PwrTrns-EndMod(3)
Level 1: Combo Level 1 
Level 1: Combo Level 2 
Level 1: Combo Level 3 
Level 49: Double Jump 
Level 20: Form of the Body 
Level 20: Form of the Mind 
Level 20: Form of the Soul 
Level 50: Vigor Core Paragon 
Level 50: Freedom Phalanx Reserve 
Level 50: Portal Jockey 
Level 50: Task Force Commander 
Level 50: The Atlas Medallion 
Level 50: Melee Core Embodiment 
------------

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[Xandyr]

5 hours ago, JavaMonk said:

I am currently working on a WP/Staff concept.  I don't suppose you'd be willing to share your build?

There ya go. I went Vigor and Melee Core for the HP/Regen, and the extra resists. It's totally insane how much you regen with RttC and Melee Core fully saturated.

And I think I dropped Assault for Taunt.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Xandyr

[Zect]

EHP calculations depend significantly on the enemy's tohit, relative level, and rank. Many calculations naively assume 50% tohit (non-incarnate softcap), relative level +0, and minion rank. That is not the case for any mobs in the game that you want tanker survivability for. Here you go:

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/12212-the-survivability-tool/

 

This will allow you to input your stats and the enemy's stats, and determine how long you can survive. It even attempts to factor in the effect of debuffs, if you want to. You don't need to take anyone's word for it: you can play with builds in mids, enter the stats, and everything is calculated for you using publicly known formulas for game mechanics.

 

Finally, and I know the OP said specifically they were discounting it: don't discount damage.

 

Survivability = mitigation x healing x dps

 

Kill the enemy twice as fast, and you only need to live half as long.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Zect

[JavaMonk]

21 hours ago, Xandyr said:

There ya go. I went Vigor and Melee Core for the HP/Regen, and the extra resists. It's totally insane how much you regen with RttC and Melee Core fully saturated.

And I think I dropped Assault for Taunt.

Thank you.  Much appreciated.